1) At what Caster Level is the spell cast? That of the weapon, or the original caster?
2) An Intensified Vampiric is cast by someone with the Wayang Spellhunter trait, making this spell only use a level 3 slot. Can this spell be store in the weapon, or does the spell still count as a level 4 spell?
3) Do any of the original caster's abilities bleed through into the spell? A crossblooded Orc/Draconic Sorcerer who stores some fire touch spell in...does it get +2 damage/die?
I want to say that 1) once the spell is stored, the weapon casts the spell. Using its own CL, with probably a min ability score modifier. That would be cool, cause it can up the CL of spells from wands. 2) I would think the spell can't be stored. 3) As one, I would say that the original caster no longer casts the spell, it's the weapon, so no.
1) the caster level the spell was cast at
2) there is an FAQ that answers this… basically, the ruling is that whichever is of least benefit is what you treat the spell level as for situations like this… as such it still counts as a spell level of 4.
3) that… I don’t know… I would assume it does since metamagic spells can be stored so long as the total modified spell level without reductions isn't too high.
For question 3 I would say no they do not. The reason metamagic can be stored is the feat is altering the spell. The spell is no longer the same level as the unmodified spell. Prepared casters have to memorize the metamagic version or cannot use the feat. If I scribe a scroll with a spell modified by a metamagic feat it still counts as the higher level even when cast by another caster. These things highlight the fact the spell itself has been changed.
Things like bloodline arcana only affect spells the caster casts themselves. If the sorcerer in the example scribed a fireball it would not do the extra damage because he did not cast it. When a wizard uses the scroll the sorcerer made to learn fire ball the wizards spell does not do the extra damage.
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I'm not aware of any official rulings, but here's a discussion from a couple of years ago that covers a lot of the possible positions: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43g47?Spell-Storing-Weapon#1
1) Never been anything officially stated, and varies by the table. IMO the caster level of the caster.
3) FAQ says no.
The FAQ you linked for 3 would apply in the event that a sorcerer activated a spellstoring weapon to cast the stored spell. They would be unable to apply their arcana or any other abilities to the spell cast this way. But that FAQ has no baring on how things work the other direction, when the sorcerer is the one casting the spell to be stored. To my knowledge there is no official ruling on this. The closest we have is a ruling for magic item creation that allows the use of metamagic and class features to augment spells used in crafting potions.
To mysterious strangers point using scrolls as reasoning… scrolls are fundamentally different. Scrolls behave as instructions to cast the spell. Potions are more in line with a spellstoring item as potions are technically spellstoring items themselves. A potion is the magic of a cast spell stored in liquid form, it is then “cast” again when someone drinks it. The rules for creating potions are largely identical to the rules for spellstoring items as well. If you are going to use something as a rules analogue it should be potions.
2) there is an FAQ that answers this… basically, the ruling is that whichever is of least benefit is what you treat the spell level as for situations like this… as such it still counts as a spell level of 4.
An intesified vampiric touch with wayang spell hunter is a level 3 in all aspects.
Vampirc touch: Level 3
Intesified Metamagic: +1 level (level 4)
Wayang spellhunter (with vampiric touch): -1 level (level 3)
The least beneficial is level 3 across the board for this scenario.
The other FAQ willuwontu provided is questionably applicable. You are casting the spell into the weapon - in this stage you can apply your feats/etc because you are actually doing the spellcasting. IMO, this FAQ does not apply. eg. I could create a wand of wand of empowered Cure Light Wounds. It would be a 3rd level wand. It would function as expected. But if I had empower spell, I could not use it when using a vanilla level 1 wand of CLW.
However, wayang spellhunter does create a economics problem in this scenario. Could I wayang spellhunter CLW and create a 2nd level empowered wand of CLW? And in doing so undercut all the other crafters of empowered CLW wands? That is probably not the intent.
This is similar to a wand of lesser restoration. For most casters lesser restoration is a level 2 spell. For paladins it is level 1. Somewhere in these forums (or maybe there is even a FAQ on it, can't recall) it has been stated that wands of lesser restoration should be counted as level 2 because that is what it most commonly is. The same would apply to other spells where certain spell casting classes or archetypes get a specific spell a level sooner (or a level later). For wands/scrolls in the economy it should use the common level of the spell. Given wayang spellhunter would effectively reduce a spells level for a specific caster, but not in general, then a empowered CLW wand should also be a 3rd level wand, even if a select few casters in the world could technically make it a 2nd.
So what this eventually comes down to is the GM will have to decide if the spell storing weapon usage should go by the common level of the spell, or allow a specific caster to get more benefit out of it.
This is similar to a wand of lesser restoration. For most casters lesser restoration is a level 2 spell. For paladins it is level 1. Somewhere in these forums (or maybe there is even a FAQ on it, can't recall) it has been stated that wands of lesser restoration should be counted as level 2 because that is what it most commonly is. The same would apply to other spells where certain spell casting classes or archetypes get a specific spell a level sooner (or a level later). For wands/scrolls in the economy it should use the common level of the spell. Given wayang spellhunter would effectively reduce a spells level for a specific caster, but not in general, then a empowered CLW wand should also be a 3rd level wand, even if a...
The ruling there wasn’t actually about “most common” it was about its location in spell list for prepared 9th level casters… It was in one of the rule books somewhere that the default price for wands, scrolls, and potions is based on the table going from left to right. It uses the lowest spell level of the left most class category. The categories being 9th level prepared >> 9th level spontaneous >> 6th level >> 4th level. A lot of 4th level casters get spells at lower levels than most, but because they are the right most category on the table the default value of wands, scrolls, and potions of those spells is never based on them.
The ruling there wasn’t actually about “most common” it was about its location in spell list for prepared 9th level casters… It was in one of the rule books somewhere that the default price for wands, scrolls, and potions is based on the table going from left to right. It uses the lowest spell level of the left most class category. The categories being 9th level prepared >> 9th level spontaneous >> 6th level >> 4th level. A lot of 4th level casters get spells at lower levels than most, but because they are the right most category on the table the default value of wands, scrolls, and potions of those spells is never based on them.
Thanks. I knew my memory of how that was ruled was incomplete.
Well, since usually specifics matter, I was wondering about a Metamagic Rager (Bloodrager) using rounds of Rage to (for free) Maximize spells and stuff. It says "The metamagic effect is applied without increasing the level of the spell slot expended," when you do this. So the Vampiric Touch would still be a level 3 spell, in all aspects?
The FAQ you linked for 3 would apply in the event that a sorcerer activated a spellstoring weapon to cast the stored spell. They would be unable to apply their arcana or any other abilities to the spell cast this way. But that FAQ has no baring on how things work the other direction, when the sorcerer is the one casting the spell to be stored.Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.The weapon is the caster of the spell when it's used, therefore the FAQ is relevant and answers the question.
Again… we are not in disagreement when the spell is cast FROM the weapon… you cant alter the spell with any feat or ability when the weapon casts it… however, the question was about when the spell is cast INTO the weapon, which that FAQ has no baring on.
Again… we are not in disagreement when the spell is cast FROM the weapon… the question was about when the spell is cast INTO the weapon, which that FAQ has no baring on.The original question was if any of the original caster's abilities would apply to the output spell, to which the answer is no.
Read the original question again.
3) Do any of the original caster's abilities bleed through into the spell? A crossblooded Orc/Draconic Sorcerer who stores some fire touch spell in...does it get +2 damage/die?
Its about the spell being stored when augmented by abilities.
The sorcerer could cast a fireball with +3 damage per die that deals cold damage into it, but when the weapon then casts that spell later, it'll still come out as a regular fireball, because the spell that was stored in it was fireball.
The item does not have those abilities, nor does you having those abilities allow the item to use them (as per my linked FAQ). Therefore, whether or not those abilities were used when storing the spell have no difference when the item then casts the spell.
Do you have a rules source to back up this claim? Because again, as stated the FAQ you provided does NOT affect what happens when the spell is stored. It affects what you can do when it is cast again after it was stored. As far as I can tell the closest rule source to this issue is potion making, in which, yes a potion crafted by a sorcerer would apply the effect of the sorcerer’s arcana if it was applied during the creation of that potion.
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To add to Azothath's post:
1) Conservative: generally Paizo approach for things that store spells, as it makes bookkeeping easier. You don't need to keep a record of who cast the spell, at what level, etc.
For several storing items it is the RAW as they refer to the ring of spell storing, that says:
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.
2-1) Permissive (it can be Usual in Azothath's campaign, but none of us knows if it is usual in all campaigns, so a misnomer): the spell storing item cast the spell at the level at which it was cast in the item.
You use the item DC.You use the highest level between what was modified by the metamagic and the original level of the spell.
2-2) Extremely permissive and against RAW: you use your DC. Only staves do that, and they have a specific ability to do that.
3) Extremely non-RAW.
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
posted August 2010 | back to top
The answer isn't limited to the question, it is way broader. Unless you have explicit permission from the item or ability effect description you can't apply it to any spell effect that comes from an item.
2) Usual: Home GM usually let the spell come out at the Caster Level & DC it went in. Again metamagics are going to take the worst option and traits won't be any help(as far as spell level).
Usually a "no" for extra abilities tied to the caster,
As Diego points out, this is very anecdotal. However, I would also like to point out the first line of the metamagic FAQ
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
If I cast a intesified vampiric touch with wayang spellhunter, what is the spell slot necessary to cast it?
The bolded part of your point is incorrect, because the trait very much has an impact on the spell slot level required.
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If I cast a intesified vampiric touch with wayang spellhunter, what is the spell slot necessary to cast it?
Select a spell of 3rd level or below. When you use this spell with a metamagic feat, it uses up a spell slot one level lower than it normally would.
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
Sadly, Wayang spellhunter is in a softcover, so it was never FAQed.
... stuff ...
I'm unclear if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.
We could swap wayang spellhunter for magical lineage, the end result would be the same.
Just to try and make sure my own point is clear:
In this case it is occurring during the casting of the spell (to be stored in a spell storing weapon). Also refer back to my point above regarding the cost of a wand of lesser restoration based on cleric spell level vs paladin spell level.
There is certainly some argument to be made whether or not a spell storing weapon can store the intensified/magical lineage spell or not. But the metamagic FAQ does not address that scenario. It is addressing only the worst possible case for the caster during the actual casting of the spell. Intensified vampiric touch with magical lineage is 3rd level for both DC's, concentration checks, spell recall, etc. 3rd is the worst case scenario in all aspects.
So the metamagic gives doesn't change anything here. And the FAQ on augmenting spell completion items has no impact during the actual casting of the spell into the storing weapon. It would have an impact when the spell storing weapon releases its spell, but only in that you could not further enhance the released spell with bloodlines, additional metamagic, etc.
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I am disagreeing with you. You refuse to acknowledge the first FAQ:
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
You are not casting the stored spell, the storing item isn't you.
As soon as you put the spell in the item it loses the effect of Wayang spellhunter, as it is no more applicable.
At that point, it becomes a 4th level spell and the weapon can't store it.
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Do you have a rules source to back up this claim? Because again, as stated the FAQ you provided does NOT affect what happens when the spell is stored. It affects what you can do when it is cast again after it was stored. As far as I can tell the closest rule source to this issue is potion making, in which, yes a potion crafted by a sorcerer would apply the effect of the sorcerer’s arcana if it was applied during the creation of that potion.Sure do, it's that FAQ I keep bringing up. The item is casting the spell, not the person. Therefore, whatever feats and abilities the person has are not of any help for the item casting the spell. Thus it casts a normal version of that spell.
Do you have any sources to back up the claim that items created by people with abilities that affect spells retain those abilities? As far as I can tell the closest rules source is the magic item creation rules for wands, scrolls, potions, and the like. Which has no rules on pricing spells affected by those abilities, nor mention of those items retaining those abilities. (Or are you saying that players are always able to purchase wands of magic missile made by an orc sorcerer with the blood havoc mutation for the same 750gp that a normal wand of magic missile would cost?)
That FAQ is not a statement that a spell completion item cannot have a metamagic version of a spell. The FAQ is stating that if you find a scroll of fireball you cannot take your own metamagic maximized feat and apply it as you are reading the scroll.
You can make a scroll of fireball, you can also make a scroll of maximized fireball (at the cost of creating a 6th level scroll). In either case, at the time someone reads a scroll it could not then be quicked, intensified, empowered, or have any other feats applied to it - but it would still be a normal fireball or a maximized fireball depending on the scroll type.
You aren't applying your feats at the time of the item casting the spell (the FAQ you reference disallows that). You are applying your feats at the time of creation of said item (or at time of storing a spell in the spell storing weapon). The FAQ you are referencing does not affect the creation of said items.
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willuwontu didn't say that you can't make a potion or a scroll of a spell with a metamagic, he did say that you can't benefit from abilities, meaning "abilities from your class, bloodline, traits, feat, etc.".
Metamagics can be applied, but discounts can't.
Metamagics have a specific dispensation:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
You need an equivalent specific dispensation to be able to do the same thing with other feats or abilities.
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I am acknowledging the first FAQ. I'm just not expanding it to areas of the rules that it doesn't cover.
willuwontu didn't say that you can't make a potion or a scroll of a spell with a metamagic, he did say that you can't benefit from abilities, meaning "abilities from your class, bloodline, traits, feat, etc.".
Metamagics can be applied, but discounts can't.Metamagics have a specific dispensation:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.You need an equivalent specific dispensation to be able to do the same thing with other feats or abilities.
I think this is a fair and compelling argument.