Coup da grace and slam


Rules Questions


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So im running the strange aeons campaign and one character failed a will saving throw and fell asleep. I was going to do a coup de grace but realized the monster only had slam attack. You have to have a melee weapon or a bow or crossbow to do it. Is this really correct?


Natural attacks are light weapons


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
vhok wrote:
Natural attacks are light weapons

But are natural attacks melee weapons?


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
vhok wrote:
Natural attacks are light weapons
But are natural attacks melee weapons?

are you throwing your arm at them to attack?


There's two problematic things here, "natural attack" vs. "natural weapon", and "weapon" vs. "manufactured weapon".

vhok wrote:
Natural attacks are light weapons

The game itself doesn't always use the correct terms, but a natural attack is an attack with a natural weapon*. A natural weapon, as the name implies, is a weapon**, and thus for most instances where the rules talk about weapon or attacks with wepaons, a natural weapon or the natural attack made with it are included.

There are some exceptions:
• Everything in the equipment rules and magic item rules is only about manufactured weapons. Natural weapons count as light weapons for stuff like Weapon Finesse, but not for general rules.
• Everything that mentions main hand/primary hand or off-hand only affects manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes. Example: Double Slices doesn't help secondary natural attacks, and you can't TWF with natural weapons.
• The rules on combining naturla attacks with other attacks, found on pg. 182 of the CRB, use "melee weapon" to mean "manufactured weapon".
• The Natural Attacks section of the Universal Monster ruels (b1 pg. 302f.) are likewise using "weapon" when the ymean "manufactured weapon".

For the question at hand, the term "melee weapon" in the CDG rules means "manufactured melee weapon, natural weapon, or unarmed strike".

*) Yes, that means the entire section in the Beastiary about natural attacks is erroneous.

**) Always melee, by the way. Even if a creature can shoot some body part, e.g. a Manticore's spikes, those are not classified as natural wepaons and don't use the respective rules like strength bonus or the primary/secondary differentiation. They do count as ranged weapons, though, both for general rules like that you use dex on the attack roll, and for individual options like Precise Shot.


Unless the slam is able to be done at ranged it is a melee attack. So, unless the natural attack is at ranged it is considered to be a melee weapon.


Welcome to the rules forum explains why strict RAW is insane with Piazo's spaghetti rules episode 293,626.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Welcome to the rules forum explains why strict RAW is insane with Piazo's spaghetti rules episode 293,626.

On the contrary, the RAW is perfectly clear if taken literally, and for the issue at hand, the RAW is perfectly fine. The issue is that there are other parts of the rules where going very strict RAW breaks them.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Unless the slam is able to be done at ranged it is a melee attack. So, unless the natural attack is at ranged it is considered to be a melee weapon.

But making a melee attack does not equate using a melee weapon. Delivering a touch spell is a melee attack, and yet it's not done with a melee weapon.

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