Does the Cult of the Dawnflower still exist in-lore?

[genericname12345]

Title.

Was curious if the Cult of the Dawnflower still existed in-lore in Qadira, or whether they've just been retgonned out of existence.

If it's the latter I'll understand but be very unhappy, mostly because I find the idea of a bunch of hyper-zealous fanatics going on jihads in the name of a Good Goddess of Redemption fairly interesting. They were basically on the edge of losing their clerical powers and divine magic from Sarenrae, weren't they? But Sarenrae is the Goddess of Redemption (and is worshipped on multiple worlds so her attention is spread thin), and that involves giving everyone a chance, including these dudes.

I've always found that dichotomy interesting, and was hoping to see it get addressed in an adventure module or AP one day. It getting retgonned feels like a waste.

But I've done enough reading to know that JJ really dislikes these dudes so if they've just been quietly smothered, fair enough.

[keftiu]

You don’t get power from the Good goddess of redemption if you’re a non-Good murderous zealot. I assume they’re like Iomedae’s former Neutral faithful - severed from divine power.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, you can absolutely tell a story of "followers of a good god take things seriously too far" but Sarenrae is absolutely the last deity who you should do this with (like "evil Shelynites" make more sense than "evil Sarenrites").

Ragathiel, Angraddd, Milani, etc. are better choices for this kind of story.

[genericname12345]

keftiu wrote:

You don’t get power from the Good goddess of redemption if you’re a non-Good murderous zealot. I assume they’re like Iomedae’s former Neutral faithful - severed from divine power.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, you can absolutely tell a story of "followers of a good god take things seriously too far" but Sarenrae is absolutely the last deity who you should do this with (like "evil Shelynites" make more sense than "evil Sarenrites").

Ragathiel, Angraddd, Milani, etc. are better choices for this kind of story.

Oh, I know - I mean, in Pathfinder/DnD-type settings you need a certain level of mental disconnect to allow for any form of straying from a god's tenents for a Church given that if they do, the clerics lose their powers. I mean sure the Gods aren't helicopter parents but there's a difference between 'one person did something bad' and 'an entire church with thousands/tens of thousads of adherents has gone astray'. So the CoD was always kind of anomalous.

I was mostly just asking out of curiosity - whether their status is up in the air, retgonned, or in the definitive 'they crossed one too many lines and lost Sarenrae's favor, and are probably in chaos as a result' camp. I'm not as familiar with Lost Omens lore and whatnot.

[keftiu]

I think their historical presence (i.e. influencing Osirion's history) is still extant, but they're cut off and irrelevant in the setting now. I don't know that they're in print in 2e.

[Morhek]

I will say, I don't actually mind Paizo deciding to leave the Cult of the Dawnflower behind. But if they're going to do it, a.) it should lead to something else, like a flowering (heh) of successors, some better for Sarenrae to foster and some just as bad for Sarenrae to disavow, and b.) it should be done narratively. Like the revolution in Eleder/Vidrian you could build a campaign around something like that, the momentous ecclesiastical shift of an entire religious sect being disbanded or brought to heel finally, and doing it offscreen just feels...unsatisfying. At the very least, a one-shot where Sarenite characters go after some relict Dawnflower cultists who've found a new patron sounds really cool, and something you could do a lot with to differentiate the 2e Golden Road from its 1e status quo.

[keftiu]

Morhek wrote:

I will say, I don't actually mind Paizo deciding to leave the Cult of the Dawnflower behind. But if they're going to do it, a.) it should lead to something else, like a flowering (heh) of successors, some better for Sarenrae to foster and some just as bad for Sarenrae to disavow, and b.) it should be done narratively. Like the revolution in Eleder/Vidrian you could build a campaign around something like that, the momentous ecclesiastical shift of an entire religious sect being disbanded or brought to heel finally, and doing it offscreen just feels...unsatisfying. At the very least, a one-shot where Sarenite characters go after some relict Dawnflower cultists who've found a new patron sounds really cool, and something you could do a lot with to differentiate the 2e Golden Road from its 1e status quo.

I think an ex-Dawnflower villain with a more fitting new patron is the perfect way to handle things! Who is the Neutral or Evil power to inherit this historic order of radical, devoted assassins?

The energy for Tian Xia is *awesome*, and I'm hoping we can get a full Arcadia bonanza... but cleaning up the sticky, older bits of the Golden Road is something I hope we can see the full Lost Omens treatment for eventually.

[Kasoh]

Morhek wrote:

I will say, I don't actually mind Paizo deciding to leave the Cult of the Dawnflower behind. But if they're going to do it, a.) it should lead to something else, like a flowering (heh) of successors, some better for Sarenrae to foster and some just as bad for Sarenrae to disavow, and b.) it should be done narratively. Like the revolution in Eleder/Vidrian you could build a campaign around something like that, the momentous ecclesiastical shift of an entire religious sect being disbanded or brought to heel finally, and doing it offscreen just feels...unsatisfying. At the very least, a one-shot where Sarenite characters go after some relict Dawnflower cultists who've found a new patron sounds really cool, and something you could do a lot with to differentiate the 2e Golden Road from its 1e status quo.

This comes back to issues paizo has with correcting errors. The entire Cult is considered an error that should not have been published. In spite of that, they tried to work it a little bit and as we can see, nothing much ever really came of it.

Leading to another issue: It takes a long time to publish books and this is not the only story they serve. We can see the real time history of slavery in Absalom to see how this goes in practice: Slowly and to few people's satisfaction.

If the publishing schedule doesn't touch on places affected by the Cult, there's no place to make developments and the APs, where massive developments happen, do not tend to overly linger in places.

With the edition change, the creative team decided to clean up several of these things and be done with it. As more 2e books get published and fewer references get made to the Cult, it should wither away into obscurity and be forgotten. Which is how Paizo handles these things.

[Spamotron]

There's the ongoing subplot of Rahadoum's desertification that's being explored in 2E. The Cult of the Dawnflower's fanaticism was instrumental in the Laws of Mortality being adopted. So in a sense their legacy is very much alive as long as Rahadoum gets any focus.

[pixierose]

keftiu wrote:

Morhek wrote:

I will say, I don't actually mind Paizo deciding to leave the Cult of the Dawnflower behind. But if they're going to do it, a.) it should lead to something else, like a flowering (heh) of successors, some better for Sarenrae to foster and some just as bad for Sarenrae to disavow, and b.) it should be done narratively. Like the revolution in Eleder/Vidrian you could build a campaign around something like that, the momentous ecclesiastical shift of an entire religious sect being disbanded or brought to heel finally, and doing it offscreen just feels...unsatisfying. At the very least, a one-shot where Sarenite characters go after some relict Dawnflower cultists who've found a new patron sounds really cool, and something you could do a lot with to differentiate the 2e Golden Road from its 1e status quo.

I think an ex-Dawnflower villain with a more fitting new patron is the perfect way to handle things! Who is the Neutral or Evil power to inherit this historic order of radical, devoted assassins?

The energy for Tian Xia is *awesome*, and I'm hoping we can get a full Arcadia bonanza... but cleaning up the sticky, older bits of the Golden Road is something I hope we can see the full Lost Omens treatment for eventually.

Another example I could think of is instead perhaps a ex-dawnflower, who took the loss of their powers as a wake up call. and maybe while they don't have divine powers now, they are trying to do good works while struggling with their past.

[Morhek]

pixierose wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Morhek wrote:

I will say, I don't actually mind Paizo deciding to leave the Cult of the Dawnflower behind. But if they're going to do it, a.) it should lead to something else, like a flowering (heh) of successors, some better for Sarenrae to foster and some just as bad for Sarenrae to disavow, and b.) it should be done narratively. Like the revolution in Eleder/Vidrian you could build a campaign around something like that, the momentous ecclesiastical shift of an entire religious sect being disbanded or brought to heel finally, and doing it offscreen just feels...unsatisfying. At the very least, a one-shot where Sarenite characters go after some relict Dawnflower cultists who've found a new patron sounds really cool, and something you could do a lot with to differentiate the 2e Golden Road from its 1e status quo.

I think an ex-Dawnflower villain with a more fitting new patron is the perfect way to handle things! Who is the Neutral or Evil power to inherit this historic order of radical, devoted assassins?

The energy for Tian Xia is *awesome*, and I'm hoping we can get a full Arcadia bonanza... but cleaning up the sticky, older bits of the Golden Road is something I hope we can see the full Lost Omens treatment for eventually.

Another example I could think of is instead perhaps a ex-dawnflower, who took the loss of their powers as a wake up call. and maybe while they don't have divine powers now, they are trying to do good works while struggling with their past.

I'm on record in the Golden Road thread arguing that the demise of the Cult of the Dawnflower is a golden opportunity to expand on the diverse traditions that Sarenites would draw on across the Golden Road, setting down rooots and drawing on local influences - Osiriani worshippers incorporating Osiriani elements with her temples and depictions, Katapeshis using pesh to induce mystical epiphanies, Thuvians with a more grounded and practical working faith involving fighting those Water Lords who refuse to allow travellers respite and hoard their oases, etc. Sarenrae's worship on Golarion draws on elements of real-life Islam and Zoroastrianism, but in 1e leaned too heavily on the jihadist tropes. But there's plenty of diversity in Islamic philosophy and tradition to draw on positively for fantasy influences once you ditch those tropes.

I think a story of ex-Dawnflowers forging a new identity and having their Come To Sarenrae moment is absolutely worth telling, and I think could be a major theme for a Golden Road setting guide for 2e. But it's also important to convey that the Cult of the Dawnflower did terrible things in Sarenrae's name, and that many of the people who joined were there specifically for the terrible things they did, and with Sarenrae's disavowal will be looking for a new patron who endorses their methods. And already struggling with the stereotypes they inherit from the Dawnflower, there should be Sarenites trying to stop or undo the damage those extremists are doing.