So I recently had an idea to make a (Gold) Dragonscale Kobold Summoner with a (Red) Dragon Eidolon, and looking at all of the options, it seems difficult for me to identify a build path, largely because I don't quite understand the scaling or options that can be available over time, such as when I can expect my Dragon Eidolon to Fly, carry me around, etc.
I also don't know how precisely to build it based on what feats might be available to me, since one idea was to implement Dragon Disciple for some of the cool effects there, making it so that I have other options besides commanding my Eidolon or casting my few spell slots, but the issue becomes that I'm very feat-starved, because I need feats for myself, my Eidolon, and for Dragon Disciple. And before we ask if it's Free Archetype or not, I'd rather not implement that as an option unless I get confirmation that it's available, so let's assume that it's not for ease of build access.
Has anyone else built a Dragon Eidolon Summoner before? If so, what was your play experience, and what options did you think were good/bad? If you were to build differently from before, what options would you have picked instead?
I have only theorycrafted summoner characters so far. I have played along side of one, but only for a couple of combats at level 1. So keep that in mind.
What I have found while building them is that yes, they are very feat hungry. Nothing you put together is ever going to feel fully satisfying because something will come up in play that you wish you had a different feat to handle it better with. Though that usually happens with evolution feats and non-combat environment challenges.
Also, Flexible Transmogrification can help with that. As does Evolution Surge.
The thing is - that with as many different directions as a Summoner character can go, there isn't a one right answer. You have to adjust your character to the campaign. If the campaign is combat heavy and doesn't have many environment challenges where a climb speed would be useful, then spending a lot of feats on evolution feats is not going to be as powerful. But if there are a lot of exploration things going on, maybe having Darkvision, a climb speed, and a swim speed, and the ability for the Eidolon to carry the summoner without losing actions would be nice.
I don't quite understand the scaling or options that can be available over time, such as when I can expect my Dragon Eidolon to Fly, carry me around, etc.
Steed Form is available at level 2. I think Kobold is size small, so if the Eidolon is at least size medium, then it could carry the Summoner around at that point. Also at level 5, the 3rd level Evolution Surge focus spell will increase the size of the Eidolon and allow it to carry the Summoner for 1 minute.
Airborne Form is available at level 14, but it does require the level 1 Glider Form first. Alternatively at level 9, the 5th level Evolution Surge will give the Eidolon a fly speed equal to its land speed - which can be pretty high if it also has Alacritous Action feat.
But all of that is a lot of feats to sink into the ability to fly around quickly.
There is also a question about whether you can cast a second instance of Evolution Surge to get a second ability from the list. I don't see anything against it. It will cost two focus points to do.
Do you want to ride the dragon? Because a kobold can also learn to fly by itself? I have been looking into this build as well…….
I would make sure your breath weapons (if selected) target a different save (reflex and fort), different type of damage, etc.
I would use the kobold to not be in close combat too much. The dragon can do draconic frenzy (and opportunity attacks). Take the marauder dragon…..
Consider getting the electric arc cantrip.
I do admit though that we do get to play with free archetype - so the feat hunger is less of an issue…..
I have only theorycrafted summoner characters so far. I have played along side of one, but only for a couple of combats at level 1. So keep that in mind.
What I have found while building them is that yes, they are very feat hungry. Nothing you put together is ever going to feel fully satisfying because something will come up in play that you wish you had a different feat to handle it better with. Though that usually happens with evolution feats and non-combat environment challenges.
Also, Flexible Transmogrification can help with that. As does Evolution Surge.
The thing is - that with as many different directions as a Summoner character can go, there isn't a one right answer. You have to adjust your character to the campaign. If the campaign is combat heavy and doesn't have many environment challenges where a climb speed would be useful, then spending a lot of feats on evolution feats is not going to be as powerful. But if there are a lot of exploration things going on, maybe having Darkvision, a climb speed, and a swim speed, and the ability for the Eidolon to carry the summoner without losing actions would be nice.
I don't quite understand the scaling or options that can be available over time, such as when I can expect my Dragon Eidolon to Fly, carry me around, etc.Steed Form is available at level 2. I think Kobold is size small, so if the Eidolon is at least size medium, then it could carry the Summoner around at that point. Also at level 5, the 3rd level Evolution Surge focus spell will increase the size of the Eidolon and allow it to carry the Summoner for 1 minute.
Airborne Form is available at level 14, but it does require the level 1 Glider Form first. Alternatively at level 9, the 5th level Evolution Surge will give the Eidolon a fly speed equal to its land speed - which can be pretty high if it also has Alacritous Action feat.
But all of that is a lot of feats to sink into the ability to fly around quickly.
There is also a question about whether you can cast a...
Yeah, looking at how many feats I'd need, not to mention other QoL stuff, there's no way I could reasonably multiclass to get some neat benefits, such as more focus points/spells without Free Archetype. Which is pretty boring.
The issue with Flexible Transmogrification is that it takes a feat that I would rather have higher level options for; it would be nice if I wanted different lower level options depending on the situation, but very rarely will I need to Swim or Burrow, and Climb can be solved via Flight.
The Dragon starts out with Darkvision, same as myself, but it doesn't get scent, or tremorsense, or blindsense, each of which requires different feats. I suppose in this case, this would be what Flexible Transmogrification would be good for, but only two of them are available via the feat.
Flight being locked behind 2 feats and 14th level is pretty rough, but if the idea is that I want it to be an actual Dragon, this is relatively important. Sure, there's Evolution Surge, but that falls in the same issue as taking actions to cast for each combat.
The major benefit and issue of the summoner class is that all feats are good ( or mandatory, depends how you see it).
If you want a flying eidolon huge size you can ride it takes
- glider
- mount
- hulking size
- towering size
- soaring form
- shrink down ( because being huge would prevent you from using your eidolon within hallways, small rooms, sneaking, etc.. )6 feats for something that doesn't enhance your gameplay, but mostly provide flavor ( the dragon growing up until they can fly and carry their owner with them).
FA helps a lot, though you won't be able to get 2* class feats, so this won't probably solve the issue. But you will get archetypr feats for free... It's something.
Back to the dragon rider, the major issues I see (things you have to keep into account) are:
- you are going to roll twice your saving throws and keep the lower one most of the time ( being in the same spot is unlikely that the rider will not be included in the aoe, though it can happen).
- -2 reflexes check because you are riding ( and your reflexes could already be worse than the eidolon's. This will impact the previous point a lot)
- less personalization for either the summoner or the eidolon ( construct and fey eidolon can help because of their bonus feats).
- protective bond ( lvl 10 feat) is something I recommend because it's pretty good!
- bard dedication ( multi talented) + hymn of healing is something I really like because it makes a good use of the lvl 16 effortless concentration ( you will swap from like link surge to hymn at higher levels).
- being a caster will make you the target of any intelligent being ( remember that even a -5 int will be able to understand that summoner and eidolon are linked because of the sigil)
- speed ( magic adept vs speed feat. 30 speed is pretty low otherwise).
I actually forgot about the Huge size being an issue in terms of exploration, so I suppose that is good to know. Problem then becomes that it's another feat tax just to play the character, and I'll need to sacrifice something for it. As for it being flavor, I wouldn't necessarily agree, since I would take the Eidolon's Opportunity feat with those for a nice 15 foot reach Reaction with benefits from the likes of Boost Eidolon (even if it takes my own reaction to do). There's also the aspect that it would also increase my overall reach, since I occupy the same squares as the Eidolon while mounted. Maybe not needing the Huge size is an acceptable compromise, but having a melee combatant that can naturally (eventually) fly up to an enemy is pretty awesome, compared to just using garbage ranged weapons while they sit there and do nothing. And unless we have to fly, I can dismount from the Eidolon towards the back, making it much harder for enemies to reach me without either triggering a reaction and/or wasting actions. (Might just invest in Acrobatics and Cat Fall so I can't die from falling damage.)
Free Archetype gives me things that I would like to do but can't because of other feat priorities; problem is, I can't just assume a given table I would play this character at will run it, otherwise it would be pretty dope to be able to do things on my own (or with tandem with my Eidolon). For example, being able to alternate Breath Weapons each round against swathes of mobs is nice.
I already knew Reflex would be my lowest save, this was bound to happen simply due to class progression. There's always Canny Acumen to shore it up a bit (or if I took a dedication like Rogue for Evasiveness), but the idea that I have a glaring flaw that needs to be shored up has both opportunity cost and action cost, and it's at levels where I absolutely don't want them.
I didn't know Construct and Fey Eidolons got bonus feats. No wonder why they're so much better than most anything else! Problem is that I wanted to do this build for a thematic reason, so cheesing my power via the better Eidolons isn't really a sensible character for the theme being presented.
Dedications take too many feats to get anything meaningful out of, and Multi-Talented is restricted to Humans. And before you ask, no, I won't take Adopted Ancestry for it, simply because it doesn't mesh with the character concept, and because I'd rather spend my General feats on better things.
Yeah, the Eidolon is the same base speed as every other creature. However, the Speed thing can be solved via Evolution Surge (giving me significantly more than either of those options), and with Act Together, I can definitely benefit from it quite nicely in the same turn. Bonus points if we are Hasted.
Do you want to ride the dragon? Because a kobold can also learn to fly by itself? I have been looking into this build as well…….
I would make sure your breath weapons (if selected) target a different save (reflex and fort), different type of damage, etc.
I would use the kobold to not be in close combat too much. The dragon can do draconic frenzy (and opportunity attacks). Take the marauder dragon…..
Consider getting the electric arc cantrip.
I do admit though that we do get to play with free archetype - so the feat hunger is less of an issue…..
I thought about investing the feats for flight, but it takes a whopping 3 Ancestry feats and isn't available until 17th level. Compared to 2 Class feats at 14th level, that's far more feasible and reasonable to acquire, even if my Class feats are contested, simply because I have twice the number of Class feats at my disposal. There's also the factor that there are better Ancestry feats I'd rather have, such as the Dracomancer and Dragonblood Paragon feats to boost my Kobold Breath and free innate spells. Maybe if we were playing with the Ancestry Paragon rules, but that's far less palatable compared to Free Archetype.
Honestly, that's very hard to do given how limiting the Breath Weapons are (for both of us), though I understand the reason behind it. The Eidolon is restricted to only target Reflex saves (though Sonic is a nice damage type to avoid resistances/immunities), and the only Fortitude save one I get access to is the Poison one from Green, which is dumb because most every enemy is either immune to Poison or has amazing Fortitude saves. And for thematic purposes, I wouldn't want to change the damage type (Fire) that I've chosen for both of us from our base values.
Odds are, I probably won't need to be mounted on the Dragon frequently unless I need its speed to escape threats, but having the ability to do so without any hindrance to either of us is pretty important. Just as well, I can dismount from any square adjacent to the Dragon if I'm being targeted, meaning I can dismount straight behind the Dragon (with the image of sliding down its tail), and if an enemy wants to reach me, they will have to spend actions to move, which triggers Reactions if I'm far enough away.
Electric Arc cantrip is nice. Almost too nice. But I get it.
The big thing with Free Archetype for me with Dragon Disciple is that I get more flexibility with my options, and I also get a (cheaper) means of Flight that doesn't cost me Ancestry feats. So all I'm really losing is versatility, which is fine.
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I have played a Dragonscaled Kobold summoner with a Dragon Eidolon. As others have noted, Summoner is a very feat intensive class.
I went Cunning Dragon and am thinking that Marauding Dragon would have been a better choice. There are a lot of evolution feats that work better with high strength and Athletics skill — trip, push and grapple. The damage bonus from the higher strength is also nice. The AC can be the same with either version at 5th level and beyond.
You should keep in mind what Evolution Surge can give you. It is a great way to give some temporary abilities. It gets much better as you level.
As Kobolds are size small, you don’t need to spend any feats increasing the Eidolon size in order to ride it. That said, I didn’t go for the Mount feat so really don’t have any practical experience with it.
I highly recommend focusing your spells on those that do not have the attack trait. That way there is no penalty to the Eidolon’s attack because of your spells.
I went for handwraps of mighty blows since that keeps my hands free. I used spells and cantrips for ranged attacks.
Tandom Movement is a huge tactical bonus. Being able to move both the summoner and the eidolon with a single action and then Act Together means being able to position both and then attack with both at the same time. Really helps alleviate the action economy pressure.
Eidolon’s Opportunity is another feat that is really strong.
On skills, I decided not to do the Dual Studies feat even though it is a strong choice. I did spend skill increases on Athletics in order for my Eidolon to have a good skill there. Even though I took the Cunning Dragon, I did improve the strength on the Eidolon for the boost to Athletics and damage.
I have played a Dragonscaled Kobold summoner with a Dragon Eidolon. As others have noted, Summoner is a very feat intensive class.
I went Cunning Dragon and am thinking that Marauding Dragon would have been a better choice. There are a lot of evolution feats that work better with high strength and Athletics skill — trip, push and grapple. The damage bonus from the higher strength is also nice. The AC can be the same with either version at 5th level and beyond.
You should keep in mind what Evolution Surge can give you. It is a great way to give some temporary abilities. It gets much better as you level.
As Kobolds are size small, you don’t need to spend any feats increasing the Eidolon size in order to ride it. That said, I didn’t go for the Mount feat so really don’t have any practical experience with it.
I highly recommend focusing your spells on those that do not have the attack trait. That way there is no penalty to the Eidolon’s attack because of your spells.
I went for handwraps of mighty blows since that keeps my hands free. I used spells and cantrips for ranged attacks.
Tandom Movement is a huge tactical bonus. Being able to move both the summoner and the eidolon with a single action and then Act Together means being able to position both and then attack with both at the same time. Really helps alleviate the action economy pressure.
Eidolon’s Opportunity is another feat that is really strong.
On skills, I decided not to do the Dual Studies feat even though it is a strong choice. I did spend skill increases on Athletics in order for my Eidolon to have a good skill there. Even though I took the Cunning Dragon, I did improve the strength on the Eidolon for the boost to Athletics and damage.
Perhaps Evolution Surge might be better used for the size increase during combat, since it's otherwise a hindrance out of combat. Sure, it might be more actions than if I were to just use the Shrink Form feat, but honestly, if I'm already having to buff for speed via Evolution Surge anyway, I'd rather just take the constant speed feat (saving myself upwards of three feats in the long run while still having an effective amount of movement and size) and buff the size in-combat, which is where it really matters. As you state, I can already mount it normally with just the Steed Form feat, and it's already Medium size, so making it Huge size at all times is somewhat pointless.
Odds are, I'll be relegated to saving throw cantrips for offense, since I won't have many other forms of offense available. Other than Electric Arc, I should run maybe Daze and Scatter Scree, so I can target different damage types and different save types.
The issue with Tandem Movement is that I'm pretty sure it doesn't work when you are Mounted, because Steed Form states that while it is mounted, all Move actions it takes gets the Tandem trait, which I believe means only works when you both can act, and you can't take multiple Tandem actions as part of the same activity, of which Tandem Movement is a Tandem action. It's still solid for moments where I'm not mounted, but given that I plan to be mounted on the Eidolon for a good amount of time (except for when I'm in danger), this feat doesn't have as much of use as it should.
Good point that the Eidolon has the same skills as you do: Felt a little silly bumping Intimidation and Diplomacy, given that I had good Charisma and wanted to maximize that benefit. Perhaps I should also take a second look at my attribute priorities, since perhaps maximizing Charisma isn't such a good idea, since my spellcasting progression is already reduced (so relying on high level saving throw spells isn't particularly helpful).
Perhaps it would generate more critique if I actually posted my current build set-up from Pathbuilder 2E.
Ancestry: Kobold with (Gold) Dragonscaled Heritage
Background: Eidolon Contact (Dragon)
Class: Marauding (Red) Dragon Eidolon Summoner
Summoner Attributes: Strength 10, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 18. Boosts to Dexterity, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma every 5 levels (until 20 Dexterity and Wisdom and 18 Constitution).
Eidolon Attributes: Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10. Boosts to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom every 5 levels (until 20 Dexterity and 20 Constitution).
Eidolon Attacks: Primary Bite 1D8 + Trip, Secondary Wing 1D6 + Agile and Finesse.
Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Arcana, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Dragon Lore, Religion.
Feats and Skill Increases
1. Kobold Breath, Glider Form
2. Steed Form, Intimidating Glare
3. Toughness; Intimidation to Expert
4. Alacritous Action, Bon Mot
5. Ally's Shelter; Diplomacy to Expert
6. Eidolon's Opportunity, Glad-Hand
7. Incredible Initiative; Intimidation to Master
8. Energy Heart (Fire), Battle Cry
9. Dracomancer; Diplomacy to Master
10. Protective Bond, Shameless Request
11. Incredible Investiture; Arcana to Expert
12. Weighty Impact, Slippery Prey
13. Elite Dracomancer; Arcana to Master
14. Airborne Form, Quick Identification
15. Canny Acumen (Reflex), Intimidation to Legendary
16. Ever-Vigilant Senses, Scare to Death
17. Dragonblood Paragon, Diplomacy to Legendary
18. Resilient Shell, Legendary Negotiation
19. Diehard; Arcana to Legendary
20. Eternal Boost, Unified Theory
I believe you are correct about mounted combat and Tandom Movement. As I said, I haven’t looked at mounts.
Canny Acumen for reflex doesn’t really seem that worthwhile since Shared Reflexes at 9th makes you expert. All you are gaining is Master at 17th.
I’m not sure the 20 Dex is worthwhile on either the summoner or eidolon but it seems you want the saving throws. Honestly, that is above the level that I’ve played so it might be that I will be in for a rude awakening there.
Overall it looks like a good build. Treat the things I said as things to look at rather than things that are wrong and need to be changed.
I assume you will be using your spells when the action is at range and the Eidolon when it is melee.
I believe you are correct about mounted combat and Tandom Movement. As I said, I haven’t looked at mounts.
Canny Acumen for reflex doesn’t really seem that worthwhile since Shared Reflexes at 9th makes you expert. All you are gaining is Master at 17th.
I’m not sure the 20 Dex is worthwhile on either the summoner or eidolon but it seems you want the saving throws. Honestly, that is above the level that I’ve played so it might be that I will be in for a rude awakening there.
Overall it looks like a good build. Treat the things I said as things to look at rather than things that are wrong and need to be changed.
I assume you will be using your spells when the action is at range and the Eidolon when it is melee.
I'm taking Canny Acumen specifically for the Master saves scaling, as other, more important feats are needed in the earlier levels, and I will be losing out on it for 2 levels if I take it at 19th, and as you say, since I'm already Expert at 9th, taking it any earlier than 15th is a waste of a general feat.
The reason why I want higher Dexterity isn't just for Saves, but for AC as well. I know that the Dragon's AC caps out from Dexterity earlier, but if I'm going to be using feats like Protective Bond or Ally's Shelter, It might be relevant to boost my Dexterity, since Reflex saves are very common.
Speaking as someone who has played a Champion to 17th level, having bad Reflex Saves made me far less durable than any Fighter with Evasion, and plenty of times my bacon was saved by that +2 from Canny Acumen. Just as well, there isn't that many more good general feats to choose from, so it's not like it's an extremely poor choice compared to taking it at 11th.
I have considered taking the Ranged Combatant feat so that my Eidolon can still contribute from a range, but realizing it will be relegated to Dexterity makes me think it is a bad idea. So yes, that is the plan, and when flight becomes constant, it will always be in a position to Strike.
having 4 actions during your round should always end up being Act together Cast a spell ( electric arc or one from your slots ) + eidolon strik. The last action should be a strike with your eidolon secondary attack. if you expend 1 action to make your boost eidolon, you'll lose a ton of dps.
Except at 7th level the Eidolon gets Draconic Frenzy and will want to use that most of the time in melee. It switches to the Eidolon always wanting two actions.
The set up he has allows Intimidate, Frenzy / Boost Eidolon. Three attacks from the Eidolon hopefully at a lower AC because of the Intimidate. More often I expect it will be Stride, Frenzy/Boost Eidolon or Intimidate.
Feats and Skill Increases
1. Kobold Breath, Glider Form
2. Steed Form, Intimidating Glare
3. Toughness; Intimidation to Expert
4. Alacritous Action, Bon Mot
5. Ally's Shelter; Diplomacy to Expert
6. Eidolon's Opportunity, Glad-Hand
7. Incredible Initiative; Intimidation to Master
8. Energy Heart (Fire), Battle Cry
9. Dracomancer; Diplomacy to Master
10. Protective Bond, Shameless Request
11. Incredible Investiture; Arcana to Expert
12. Weighty Impact, Slippery Prey
13. Elite Dracomancer; Arcana to Master
14. Airborne Form, Quick Identification
15. Canny Acumen (Reflex), Intimidation to Legendary
16. Ever-Vigilant Senses, Scare to Death
17. Dragonblood Paragon, Diplomacy to Legendary
18. Resilient Shell, Legendary Negotiation
19. Diehard; Arcana to Legendary
20. Eternal Boost, Unified TheoryHmm...
some quick suggestions to improve ( in my opinion ) your build:
1) Extend boost is probably the most powerful spell you could ask for ( until you have the possibility of being quickened all the time ).
having 4 actions during your round should always end up being Act together Cast a spell ( electric arc or one from your slots ) + eidolon strik. The last action should be a strike with your eidolon secondary attack. if you expend 1 action to make your boost eidolon, you'll lose a ton of dps.
Consider adopted ancestry human + Natural ambition to save a lvl+2 class feat.
2) by lvl 12, refocusing x 2 allows you to also give your eidolon fast healing, or using evolution surge, eidolon wrath, etc... you can also opt for 2x extend boost if you want to build with merciless rend ( being quickened and with a boost ongoing you can easily electric arc + strike, with act together, another strike from quickened condition and merciless rend if both strikes hit. this is the maximum damage per round a summoner can get I guess ).
Even using 2x eidolon wrath per fight would destroy anything.
3) by lvl 4 get magical understudy and by lvl 8 magical...
Extend is definitely solid until Eternal Boost. Issue is that I don't have the feats to get it early. As for being Quickened, my issue is that making a Strike at -4 with a weaker attack would be a waste of actions compared to utilizing Boost Eidolon and bumping either the primary attack, or even Draconic Frenzy, since 3 attacks with the effects of Boost Eidolon at two actions is nice.
Being able to refocus multiple points doesn't work when I don't have multiple points to refocus with. Extend Boost would give me a second one, but again, lacking feats is rough.
Did not consider that taking the magical feats to circumvent the mundane feats would be the better buy, since again, I would have all the combat stats I effectively need while not having to worry about the drawbacks.
I mean, maybe I could do the Bard thing if I expunge the Senses and Weighty Impact feat; the latter just seemed like a lame attempt to utilize the Trip trait on my Eidolon, and the former isn't helpful given that I am not the trap searcher. But since I have bad action economy and feat taxes as it is, I don't think it's viable.
Thanks for the input, it gave me more to think about with my feats and output.
What quickened condition?
For that matter, what merciless rend? I don’t see that in their build.
You are misusing a game term — quickened. Quickened is what you get when Haste is cast on you. There are other ways, that is the most common.
Darksol’s build doesn’t have merciless rend in it.
Also, you need to hit with both attacks in order to get the damage from it. Given that the eidolon doesn’t have the best proficiency in unarmed attacks, this isn’t going to work very often against significant enemies. The other problem being that the build presented would need to change their attack type on the secondary attack — it currently is either bludgeoning or fire depending on which attack they put energy heart on.
There is also the problem that the rend requires an action.
Act Together (Spell / secondary attack) is two actions,
Strike is one action.
Even if you hit with both secondary attacks, you don’t have the actions to rend.
Now if you are suggesting that your character is Hasted every battle, you should review how few spell slots a summoner gets. Also, the Haste would probably do more damage if cast on a Barbarian, flurry Ranger, or Fighter.
Do you need your eidolon to be this big? If you want to ride it, it only needs to be one size larger than you. A Kobold is Small and a base Dragon eidolon is Medium. Sure, it's not as intimidating, but it saves some feats :)