Best Practices for Handling Multiple Attack Penalty (MAP) with Real Dice?

[Israfeli]

Greetings all!

I've been playing Pathfinder 2e for almost 2 months now, and have managed to play a bunch at our local PFS events. I started with a caster but I'm now focusing on a ranger.

I've gone precision ranger, and I started with an animal companion. I've found that I roll a lot of dice in a given round, and every die has a different modifier depending on the attack number and whether it is me or the pet attacking. I have the modifiers written for each attack on my record sheet but it's basically 5 different modifiers: +9/+4/-1 for the ranger and +7/+2 for his furry friend.

This means on many turns I roll 5 dice* all with different modifiers (assuming Fido is not dirt-napping) . I've tried using color-coded dice and alternatively rolling one at a time. No matter how I approach my turn it is almost completely immersion-breaking. If I make a math error it's even worse. The whole process bogs down the table. I have contemplated using an iPad and Pathbuilder to do the rolling, but dice are fun and I would rather not use the tablet.

I've made a spreadsheet that generated all the attacks for my ranger and his pet all at once, but again its not exactly fun to use. Spreadsheet = work, right? Dice are fun. Also I would have to negotiate with the PFS GM every time I wanted to use it and I'm not sure it would be considered legal at every table.

I know that in Pathfinder 2e there are other things to do other than straight attack, but most also require dice rolls with either MAP or yet another modifier. I guess I could always just step back on my last strike; that would save me one roll but deny a team mate flanking potentially.

I can't be the only person with this issue, can I? Anyone have any great ideas for keeping track of the rolls and modifiers using real dice?

Thank you!

Izzy

*5 dice ranger turn: ranger command pet, ranger hunted shot(2 bow strikes +9/+4), ranger bow strike (-1), pet strike(+7), pet strike(+2), all with different modifiers

[Claxon]

Uhhh....did you play PF1 or D&D before? How did you manage when you played those where your attacks had differing BAB for each attack and you had to remember to subtract from your bonus?

I would suggest doing it the same way.

If necessary, write out your attack routine with the various bonuses with MAP taken into account. (Sounds like you have).

I would also like to mention to you that you really shouldn't be using a 3rd attack with the associated MAP, it's basically a waste of an action.

And I hope you're including the shared MAP penalty if your ride your companion. Not that you are, but just a reminder.

As far as the physical act of rolling...are you trying to basically pre-roll your entire attack routine. Wouldn't you like to see how your actions turn out before deciding your next action? I guess you want to be "efficient" with the time of your turn but maybe just resolve one thing at time.

[Doug Hahn]

It takes time. practice and be kind to yourself.

Color-coded is the way to go (e.g. "gold dice are always first attack, blue dice is always second, green third…).

I write down my modifiers on a sheet of paper, in big numbers, and place it my dice tray. I roll everything at once.

here is an example of that this might look like.

In 1e My brawler's notes were a lot worse… don't miss that complexity, but I could still run his turns faster than most people ran theirs because of good notes + practice.

You can add in notes as you go.

----

Yo can also ask your GM to pre-roll dice while the player before you goes. Speaking for myself I am usually totally fine with that if the player is running an archer or similar who is 95% likely to snap off all the arrows he can, a barbarian whop's just gonna smash, etc. Especially if they are a trusted member of the community who will not cheat.

[WarDriveWorley]

I echo what Doug Hahn says. It will take practice and color-coded is the way to go.

What I did is create a "cheat sheet" that's on a full size sheet. The sheet has an image of the dice along the left margin and to the right of each die is a breakdown of what attack I use for each one and made sure I used dice that are as different in color and design as possible to avoid confusion (with my blue metal d20 being my primary one).

After rolling I make sure to place each die on the image corresponding to it to help train my mind to recognize each one by default.

[Israfeli]

Doug Hahn wrote:

It takes time. practice and be kind to yourself.

Color-coded is the way to go (e.g. "gold dice are always first attack, blue dice is always second, green third…).

I write down my modifiers on a sheet of paper, in big numbers, and place it my dice tray. I roll everything at once.

I like that in-tray reminder! I am going to work out something similar. It might help to have it right in from of me at all times. As for other games with BAB, etc, I never encountered a game where it was a complicated as PF 2e for ranger and companion, but maybe I was just lucky.

[Claxon]

Did you play PF1 where you could end up with a companion with like 5 natural attacks? Or where your bow ranger could fire like 7 arrows. And you had deadly aim that you could choose to turn off (no one did because doing math on the fly sucks). But yeah...I think PF2 math is a less complicated than PF1 or most editions of D&D.

[Doug Hahn]

Claxon wrote:

Did you play PF1 where you could end up with a companion with like 5 natural attacks? Or where your bow ranger could fire like 7 arrows. And you had deadly aim that you could choose to turn off (no one did because doing math on the fly sucks). But yeah...I think PF2 math is a less complicated than PF1 or most editions of D&D.

I'm confused, is the OP asking about 1e or something? While 2e is more streamlined (in a good way), efficiency is still an important topic and something many players (myself included) can improve on.

[arcady]

Whether this is more or less complex than whatever you did in the path is not material to the question.

As for the question.

Try multiple small dice trays? Either 2: you and the companion. Or 3: one for each attack you have, then roll the companion separately.

Another note of advice... look into what actions you can do other than multiple attacks. In playing this game as a cast I usually have 1 attack and one other action. That leaves me sitting there when the martials take their turns getting to watch their choices from the outside.

The players that spam attacks tend to very very often miss the second attack, and almost never hit on the third. I'm not sure if I've ever seen the third connect.

Some of them have taken to instead using action three to demoralize, aid, raise a shield, or do just about anything other than swing again. The players who have found something else in their list of options to do, seem to be out performing the ones who just spam attacks.

For some of them this meant consulting with the GM for a slight character rewrite when they realized "If I had taken feat A instead of B - I'd be able to do action C as my last action."

Even with my caster. I'd rather spend action 3 casting shield on myself or yelling out "go team" with some cheerleading pom poms than do something like throw a dart.

This would then help meet your complexity concern, as you'd be rolling less dice. Of course it would just shift the burden because now you'd be tracking something like a aid bonus... ;)

[BloodandDust]

Unless the attack includes something like Double-Slice we just roll one attack a time, add/subtract the bonus, apply damage, etc.

Usually prefer that for tactical benefit as well. E.g. if the first attack takes out the bad guy, or you discover a weakness/resistance, you may need to change the routine anyway. The character might need to step away, switch weapons, trip or grapple, whatever. I don't see many characters delivering a "standard routine" enough for it to be worth setting up the dice for it.

PF2E combat rewards flexibility, IMO.

Just a thought.

[AceofMoxen]

I've an idea for someone who makes dice:

Second attack die with the numbers negative 4 through 15 and third attack die with negative nine through 10. Agile second attack would be -3 through 16 and agile third would be -7 through 12. I don't know if flurry ranger deserves its own dice, too.

[Israfeli]

AceofMoxen wrote:

I've an idea for someone who makes dice:

Second attack for with the numbers negative 4 through 15 and third attack die with negative nine through 10. Agile second attack would be -3 through 16 and agile third would be -7 through 12. I don't know if flurry ranger deserves its own dice, too.

Yes I had that thought too! Also what Doug Hahn does seems like it should already be a thing: put a player aid at the bottom of a dice tray, with the essential combat information, to streamline attack rolls. I really love that idea and will try to format and share a blank square MDG tray version that others can use.

Maybe this issue did exist in other games I’ve played but I didn’t play a lot of martials so I didn’t encounter it. I’m not saying it’s better or worse in 2e just wondering how others get around it, and getting some great ideas in this thread. Thanks everyone.

[Ascalaphus]

Since this is PFS, and it's totally normal to eventually have multiple characters.

You could decide that after trying out ranger with oodles of attacks per round, that it turns out you don't really like playing with that particular mechanic as much as you though, and that next character you're looking for more of a "one big hit" approach.

[BishopMcQ]

I would roll my dice and just apply attacks from left to right. As long as you have a consistent routine that doesn't make anyone think that you are cherry-picking specific dice for specific modifiers, it should be fine.

I've also made index cards with my common attack sequences or placed trimmed index cards into a sheet protector designed for baseball cards or similar, then used a wet erase marker to add modifiers.

There are a lot of options. Play around with a few and figure out what works best for you.

[Israfeli]

BishopMcQ wrote:

I've also made index cards with my common attack sequences or placed trimmed index cards into a sheet protector designed for baseball cards or similar, then used a wet erase marker to add modifiers.

This is perfect. I just made a set of index cards and will put them in my dice tray as I select a weapon for myself and for my animal companion. I have five index cards right now at second level: 1 bow, 1 greatsword, 1 maul, 1 for my dog's jaw attack, and one for his claw attack (which is different than the jaw because it's agile). I will get some of those sheet protectors and I'll be good to go.

Thanks!

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Rather than colour coding make a print out that goes

[ ] + 9

[ ] + 4

[ ] - 1

[ ] + 7

[ ] + 2

Put that in your dice tray or as a table mat in front of you.

Then when you roll, you assign the dice closest to the modifier to that.
No memorization required and you can do the simple math by putting the dice next to the modifier. Finally a use for dice physics at the table!

[Israfeli]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Rather than colour coding make a print out that goes

[ ] + 9

[ ] + 4

[ ] - 1

[ ] + 7

[ ] + 2

Put that in your dice tray or as a table mat in front of you.

Then when you roll, you assign the dice closest to the modifier to that.
No memorization required and you can do the simple math by putting the dice next to the modifier. Finally a use for dice physics at the table!

Woah that is an interesting idea! How about a dice tower/tray that sorts the dice into slots that does the same thing? This could be 3d printed. I might try to model something like that.

[Temperans]

Wait did I miss something? What's the issue with just doing the math after each roll?
You have a phone so just use the calculator app if doing the math is too much. If the issue is rolling too many dice, then just roll 1 dice at a time.

On a side note, am I out of the loop? When did rolling dice and doing math in a TTRPG became immersion breaking?

[Claxon]

It sounds like the OP gets overwhelmed trying to be too efficient by pre-rolling or rolling everything at the start of their turn.

To be honest, as a GM I don't actually like that. For me that is more immersion breaking then rolling as you declare each action. Besides as mentioned before, what if you don't want to make an attack? Wht if instead you want to trip, or take another action? Now maybe you've rolled too many dice.

My opinion is just roll one thing at a time. It actually helps keep the tension at the table (because otherwise people are just going to look at your dice and assume success/failure of your turn based on that.

You also kind of lock yourself in by trying to pre-roll everything.

Honestly, I don't think declaring each action, then rolling slows things down much compared to rolling everything at once. I honestly probably spend more time deciding exactly what I should do compared to rolling and doing math.

[Ascalaphus]

You can also experiment with the order in which you do calculations. For example, the following are all mathematically equivalent:

* Roll die, add bonus to die, then subtract MAP
* Calculate bonus - MAP, then roll die, then add die result to net bonus
* Roll die, calculate bonus - MAP, add net bonus to die

But in practice I find the first one somehow harder to do than the other two.

[Doug Hahn]

Claxon wrote:

To be honest, as a GM I don't actually like that. For me that is more immersion breaking then rolling as you declare each action.

Players should always check with their GM before pre-rolling any dice; while this might work for some in certain contexts, the GM has every right to say "no" for any reason at any point.

That said, I usually know exactly what I want to do before my turn starts, because I'm planning it out when the person before me is going. This is especially true when the table is full of cooperative and communicative people. Efficiency is also a group thing too.

[Israfeli]

Ascalaphus wrote:

You can also experiment with the order in which you do calculations. For example, the following are all mathematically equivalent:

* Roll die, add bonus to die, then subtract MAP
* Calculate bonus - MAP, then roll die, then add die result to net bonus
* Roll die, calculate bonus - MAP, add net bonus to die

But in practice I find the first one somehow harder to do than the other two.

I was doing the first but now I will try to have the bonuses precalculated on cards. I put this together last night with different cards for my /my pet's different attacks:

Dice tray with combat cards

I often have to switch between three weapons (all with different modifiers) based on the resistances/vulnerabilities of the critters we are fighting and this will make it simple. I know my character sheet with similar numbers is right next door, but I like it big and bold in the tray. Maybe I'm just easily distracted. Squirrel!

Many thanks to Doug Hahn for showing what he does with his tray, this is stolen directly from that suggestion!

[Israfeli]

Here's another possibility, using the index card idea combined with the dice sorting concept (thanks DM_aka_Dudemeister!):

Sorted dice with collapsible tower and bonus cards

So with this, you can roll one, two, or three dice, depending on whether you want to fully attack, and whether or not your pet is attacking. It's very adaptable to how many attacks you want to make. In practice the dice generally roll to the end of the tray but if not you just slide them down. The bonus cards can be switched out depending on what weapon you or your pet is using. They are a little messy at the moment but they are made from old business cards so easy to make a lot.

I like this one because it lets me keep using my favorite collapsible dice tower. We'll see which is easier in practice.

[AceofMoxen]

Claxon wrote:

It sounds like the OP gets overwhelmed trying to be too efficient by pre-rolling or rolling everything at the start of their turn.

It occurs to me that this is possibly left over from PF1e. My understanding of those rules (I only played a little) is that once you declared a full attack, you were "locked in." Your only other thing that turn was a swift action. So you were making those attacks, no matter what. Even if your first or second attack dropped the target, you were only switching to another nearby target.

On the other hand, if a PF2e ranger starts a turn intending to make five attacks, things could change. The creature could drop, or have a reaction that lets it move. The PC ranger may need to spend an action moving or hunting prey.

[Claxon]

Doug Hahn wrote:

Claxon wrote:

To be honest, as a GM I don't actually like that. For me that is more immersion breaking then rolling as you declare each action.

Players should always check with their GM before pre-rolling any dice; while this might work for some in certain contexts, the GM has every right to say "no" for any reason at any point.

That said, I usually know exactly what I want to do before my turn starts, because I'm planning it out when the person before me is going. This is especially true when the table is full of cooperative and communicative people. Efficiency is also a group thing too.

I have a hard time imagining that, because you can get such a wide variety of options from class feats. This isn't PF1 where a martial character wanted to full attack every turn and anything else was only done to help set up being able to full attack better.

In PF2, my fighter's actions are going to depend on what I was able to do successfully in the actions. Even though I might want to start my attacks against any enemy with Knockdown, what I do afterwards will depend. I might decide to strike. I might decide to use Bon Mot or Evangelize. I might need to stride away. Depending on the situation there isn't one course of action to be repeated every turn. Even though I might have an idea of what I want to do on my turn, depending on how that first action turns out, I might change what I'm doing afterwards.

[Claxon]

AceofMoxen wrote:

Claxon wrote:

It sounds like the OP gets overwhelmed trying to be too efficient by pre-rolling or rolling everything at the start of their turn.

It occurs to me that this is possibly left over from PF1e. My understanding of those rules (I only played a little) is that once you declared a full attack, you were "locked in." Your only other thing that turn was a swift action. So you were making those attacks, no matter what. Even if your first or second attack dropped the target, you were only switching to another nearby target.

On the other hand, if a PF2e ranger starts a turn intending to make five attacks, things could change. The creature could drop, or have a reaction that lets it move. The PC ranger may need to spend an action moving or hunting prey.

Technically not quite correct, you could downgrade a full attack (or rather not decide to full attack) until after you first attack was done IIRC. But once you started that 2nd attack you were locked in.

But to your point, the action economy of PF1 was much more restrictive and less fluid. Even for spell casters. After casting a spell they basically could decide to move or not. PF2 is much more dynamic. At least if you want it to be.

[Israfeli]

I just practiced a bit with the two things I mocked up, and the dice tray with the cards is perfect. You can roll one, two, or three dice in the tray and just sort them left to right and assign appropriate modifiers, and then roll one or two for the animal companion and sort them left to right for his modifiers.

Here's an example for my ranger if he makes three attacks in one turn (this happens when he's already hunted prey the last round and is shooting his bow this round):

Three dice in tray (sort left to right)

Three dice were thrown because the hunter with hunted prey and hunted shot used all the attacks on the target. The dice are sorted left to right. The first attack is 10+9, the second is 8+4, and the third is 9-1.

For the pet I will just throw two dice and sort left to right.

Overall, this will make things more fun and efficient for me. YMMV. It combines Doug Hahn's notes in dice tray idea with DMAkaDudemeister's sorting idea. I really appreciate all the help!

[Cyouni]

Doug Hahn wrote:

Claxon wrote:

To be honest, as a GM I don't actually like that. For me that is more immersion breaking then rolling as you declare each action.

Players should always check with their GM before pre-rolling any dice; while this might work for some in certain contexts, the GM has every right to say "no" for any reason at any point.

That said, I usually know exactly what I want to do before my turn starts, because I'm planning it out when the person before me is going. This is especially true when the table is full of cooperative and communicative people. Efficiency is also a group thing too.

The problem is if circumstances change in the middle of your turn, that can rewire quite a bit. As someone who usually has their general turn planned out, let's say the first attack knocks the only thing you can target to 0. Well, then, you have to adjust all your following actions, meaning you've already rolled too many dice - especially if taking out that enemy means you'd want to Raise a Shield or something, for instance.

[Doug Hahn]

The long and short is that pre-rolling was a suggestion for the op. I never claimed it would work for everyone all the time, if I came off that way it wasn’t intended. It works for me in some situations. If it doesn’t work at your tables that’s cool but it doesn’t invalidate it as a potential avenue for the OP or anyone else who might want just a little extra time to do the math for a simple turn.

Anyway, probably worth a separate thread for further discussion.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Israfeli wrote:

I just practiced a bit with the two things I mocked up, and the dice tray with the cards is perfect. You can roll one, two, or three dice in the tray and just sort them left to right and assign appropriate modifiers, and then roll one or two for the animal companion and sort them left to right for his modifiers.

Here's an example for my ranger if he makes three attacks in one turn (this happens when he's already hunted prey the last round and is shooting his bow this round):

Three dice in tray (sort left to right)

Three dice were thrown because the hunter with hunted prey and hunted shot used all the attacks on the target. The dice are sorted left to right. The first attack is 10+9, the second is 8+4, and the third is 9-1.

For the pet I will just throw two dice and sort left to right.

Overall, this will make things more fun and efficient for me. YMMV. It combines Doug Hahn's notes in dice tray idea with DMAkaDudemeister's sorting idea. I really appreciate all the help!

What an excellent execution and synthesis of ideas. Let us know how it plays at the table, and I'm glad we could help you brainstorm a solution that works for you.

[Pirate Rob]

As a small note I don't like sorting dice as rolled from left to right, it feels like there's too much objectivity when dice aren't clearly to the left/right of each other. Even if there's no malfeasance or you always do it perfectly even the appearance of impropriety is potentially a problem.

If you are rolling say more than 2 at once (gold always first), having an easy to remember color coding system is super helpful.

I'm fond of alphabetical Blue, Orange, Red, Green
or Rainbow, Red, Orange, Green, Blue

Most important is to be consistent.

[egindar]

This is something of a tangent, but I wonder how useful it might be in general for a PF2e player to have "MAP dice." As in, an icosahedron numbered -4 to 15 for MAP-5 (with appropriate markings on the -4 and 15 to let you know they're the equivalent of natural 1s and 20s respectively), and something similar for MAP-10. Different colors so you know which one is which more easily.

Might be a little too much if you need additional dice for agile weapons or flurry ranger MAP, though.

[Ascalaphus]

egindar wrote:

This is something of a tangent, but I wonder how useful it might be in general for a PF2e player to have "MAP dice." As in, an icosahedron numbered -4 to 15 for MAP-5 (with appropriate markings on the -4 and 15 to let you know they're the equivalent of natural 1s and 20s respectively), and something similar for MAP-10. Different colors so you know which one is which more easily.

Might be a little too much if you need additional dice for agile weapons or flurry ranger MAP, though.

I like the idea, but yeah flurry ranger makes it trickier;

0 MAP
-2 MAP (flurry+agile)
-3 MAP (flurry non-agile; probably not popular)
-4 MAP (agile, or third attack agile flurry)
-5 MAP (regular)
-6 MAP (flurry non-agile; probably not popular)
-8 MAP (agile)
-10 MAP (regular)

Of course a single character isn't likely to need all of these permutations. Just the 0/-4/-8 and 0/-5/-10 set would be enough for most people. There might be a little market there.

[Israfeli]

Pirate Rob wrote:

As a small note I don't like sorting dice as rolled from left to right, it feels like there's too much objectivity when dice aren't clearly to the left/right of each other. Even if there's no malfeasance or you always do it perfectly even the appearance of impropriety is potentially a problem.

If you are rolling say more than 2 at once (gold always first), having an easy to remember color coding system is super helpful.

I'm fond of alphabetical Blue, Orange, Red, Green
or Rainbow, Red, Orange, Green, Blue

Most important is to be consistent.

After rolling a set of three dice a bunch of times to practice, it was pretty easy to make sure they landed distinctly left to right most of the time. But I did have one toss that lined up in an ambiguous way. If you toss them one at a time in succession it is easier to control, but it's fun to toss a handful.

It’s probably just me, but I like having the dice read left to right. I can always use colored dice and just move them into left/right order position if they don’t fall where they are supposed to. I’m thinking going with Gold, Silver, and Copper d20s as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd attack.

[Israfeli]

egindar wrote:

This is something of a tangent, but I wonder how useful it might be in general for a PF2e player to have "MAP dice." As in, an icosahedron numbered -4 to 15 for MAP-5 (with appropriate markings on the -4 and 15 to let you know they're the equivalent of natural 1s and 20s respectively), and something similar for MAP-10. Different colors so you know which one is which more easily.

Might be a little too much if you need additional dice for agile weapons or flurry ranger MAP, though.

Someone, maybe me, should do this with 3d printed dice. You could have MAP normal, flurry, agile, and agile with flurry sets.

The only thing to watch out for is making sure you don’t confuse these with each other, or you might be giving yourself some unintended minuses!