Hey y'all! I just finished reading the core rulebook and loved it, but I am confused about a few things that I hope you can help me understand. There's a lot of questions, feel free to just answer 1 question! I suspect not many people are going to have the energy to answer all of them.
1) What is a disrupt?
There's some actions that clearly can disrupt and there's some actions that can clearly be disrupted, but does disrupt only apply to those things? Like, if you trip a mage, can their "until next turn" concentrate spell be disrupted? What if you trip someone as a reaction? What if you're using a ready action/reaction to be specifically disruptive to a spell caster?
Attack of Opportunity says it disrupts a move action on a critical success, is the same true for a ready-strike action/reaction which triggers on a move action?
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2) Are non-perception initiative rolls just flavor?
The Core book calls stealth initiative rolls a stealth check (which, I assume, the enemy would roll perception against it) and when you hide the same thing kinda happens. The player would roll a stealth check against a perception DC, so that's where this is coming from. It doesn't sound right, but I'm not certain.
In other words, if the sneaker beats the initiative of the enemy is the sneaker then hidden/undetected? If the sneaker rolls below perception would they then be observed?
Or would the rogue's hidden/observed/whatever condition not change before or after initiative, and they'd have to roll another stealth check to hide/sneak at the beginning of their turn?
The reason I'm not certain is because the second one sounds right but, like, what happens when the seeker beats the rogue? Do they waddle about for 6 seconds (in which case why not let the sneaker go first?)
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3) What stops wands from being overpowered?
A spellcaster can only prepare 1 staff a day. The staff is rather limited in use in a way that seems balanced to me, but when I compare it to the wand and how the wand recharges automatically with no limit to how many you can carry, it seems a bit too much (at least, I think that's how it works). What's to stop someone from having a belt of wands and holding one in each hand, only using their spell slots in an emergency?
It might simply be fine in actual play and I'm just not seeing something, like maybe it's too costly or maybe it requires too many actions/feats to easily pull off, or there should be a greater emphasis of utility items.
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4)What should you do when a player tries to do something that's covered by a feat?
This might be more advice-orientated, sorry. If someone tries to distract a crowd or make a big request from a traveling band, can they just not?
So, some feats include more technical benefits and I can see how those might work. Fascinating Performance, for instance, gives the fascinate condition. I can see a bard trying to distract a crowd without the feat leading to the simple ruling that the bard's performance doesn't give the fascinate condition; in turn, more people can leave during the performance willy-nilly especially on a lower roll (which I hope isn't too homebrew-y of a ruling).
But I can't use the same logic for Group Coercion:
Group Coercion
When you Coerce, you can compare your Intimidation check
result to the Will DCs of two targets instead of one. It’s possible
to get a different degree of success for each target. The number
of targets you can Coerce in a single action increases to four if
you’re an expert, 10 if you’re a master, and 25 if you’re legendary.
If the player is trying to demand a group of people to do something, do I just say no? Or if they're trying can they not use intimidation and have to use a non-diplomacy/intimidate skill? Do they automatically fail unless it's super reasonable?
I can run into a similar problem with attacks. Bows pin with critical specialization, but what if someone tries pinning another with a knife or what if they're using a bow without critical specialization? Do I use the "other" action and homebrew it? I don't feel like I can do a good enough job homebrewing something like that but at the same time it seems like something that could happen.
5) How strong is a +1 circumstance bonus
Under special circumstances it says to give +1 for a minor but significant thing with +2 being for major things.
I think the book has a lot of +2 circumstances modifiers, though, and I think the player might feel cheated if they do a bunch of work only to receive a modifier which is replaced and ignored by follow the expert. Do you think this is the case, or is a +1 circumstance modifier really something that's worth it?
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I have a feeling I overlooked some stuff, or maybe the answer is in another book, but hopefully most of the mechanical questions have straight forward answers. I'm super excited to start GMing, but I still feel a little out of my depth and like I don't have a great grasp of the system yet. Hopefully after a few games I'll be better!
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Greetings. And welcome to the game.
feel free to just answer 1 question! I suspect not many people are going to have the energy to answer all of them.
Hah. There are several of us on here that will just go down the list.
1) What is a disrupt?
The rules for disrupting. Basically if an action is disrupted, then it doesn't have any effect. There is an exception for move actions that don't actually cause a character to move from their space. For example, Stand. In that case, even if the action is disrupted, the move part of it completes.
There is currently a different thread here that is debating the fine particulars over what exactly gets disrupted and when. But you and your table should be able to make your own decisions on it.
2) Are non-perception initiative rolls just flavor?
Not really. The skills involved will likely have different bonuses. The difference isn't going to be huge, but if you are trying to squeeze every last edge that you can it might be worth looking at your skill list to see if there is something you could do during exploration that would get you a better bonus - especially for classes and characters that have low Perception proficiency.
3) What stops wands from being overpowered?
The cost. Wands are somewhat expensive. Both in money to buy them and in actions to retrieve them before casting from them.
4)What should you do when a player tries to do something that's covered by a feat?
The biggest culprit here is skill feats. There are a ton of them and a lot of them are fairly common ideas that a player might want to do without knowing that there is a skill feat that covers it.
My rule of thumb is that no skill feat that I have seen costs two actions and a skill check. Some cost one action and a skill check, some don't require a skill check.
So if a player is improvising something and you don't know if there is a skill feat for it - or even if you do know that there is a skill feat for it but it seems reasonable that the character could try it anyway: make the attempt cost two actions and a skill check. Similarly you could double the time cost needed for skill actions that are handled in exploration or skill encounter mode.
That lets them try to do their cool thing, but also prevents making a different character that does have the appropriate feat feel that they took a feat for nothing since they could have just done the thing without the feat just as well.
5) How strong is a +1 circumstance bonus
About as powerful as a +2 bonus in PF1. Not quite exactly, but close.
The thing is that in simple d20 checks there is only two options: pass/fail. So a +2 bonus changes two values of the d20 result from fail to pass.
With the four degrees of success, there are now almost always two boundaries. The pass/fail boundary, and either the fumble/fail boundary or the pass/crit boundary. So a +1 bonus still changes two results of the d20 result. One on each boundary.
The reason that it isn't fully as powerful as a +2 bonus on a simple pass/fail check is because there are cases where the second boundary doesn't provide any meaningful change in outcome. A Strike action generally has no difference between a fumble and a miss, for example. Until you attack a Swashbuckler while at -10 MAP...
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Well, if you come up with any more questions, come back here.
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1) Disrupting an action (or activity) ends the action but the costs for the action are still spent. For example, if a wizard is using the Cast a Spell activity with a somatic component, and a fighter disrupts it with an Attack of Opportunity, then the spell is not cast but the wizard loses the prepared spell.
However, once the Cast a Spell activity is finished, the time is too late to disrupt the spell. If the fighter trips a wizard who is Sustaining a Spell every turn, the wizard is perfectly free to Sustain the Spell while lying on the ground. If the spell has a duration that does not require sustaining, the wizard could be killed and the duration would not change. A non-sustained spell is independent of the wizard once cast.
A Stride action and similar move actions such as Fly can be disrupted in the middle. The movement stops but earlier movement is not undone.
2) Initiative rolls set initiative order. As a GM I often name several different skills, including Perception which technically is not a skill but more like a cross between a skill and a saving throw, that could be used for the initiative roll. The difference is not merely flavor; rather, I pick the initiative skills to give certain PCs and NPCs an advantage in initiative because they have the right skills to catch on quickly. For example, if the party is walking through a swamp and encounters some Oozes, I could say, "Roll Perception, Nature, or Occultism for initiative." Perception is valid because it is about noticing. Nature is valid because it covers natural environments such as swamps. Occultism is valid because it is the skill for Recalling Knowledge about Oozes (See Table 10-7: Creature Identification Skills). Deception is not valid because deceiving people is not relevant to reacting in a swamp. Thus, the druid expert in Nature and the bard expert in Occultism would be able to react quickly, but the alchemist expert in Crafting would roll Perception because his Nature and Occultism checks are terrible. The alternative skills to roll initiative are a reward for being prepared in the right way.
A few initiative rolls enable special features. For example, a rogue's Surprise Attack class feature says, "You spring into combat faster than foes can react. On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you." Likewise, the Avoid Notice exploration activity lets rolling initiative with Stealth also serve as a Stealth skill check to remain undetected.
Thus, imagine that the rogue moves into a room during exploration mode while using Avoid Notice. Avoid Notice lets his initiative roll with Stealth also determine how Stealthy he is at the moment. However, as the GM I could say, "Nope, you don't get to roll Stealth because the room appears empty. You don't know what to Hide from." Instead, I let the rogue roll Stealth because some Orc warriors are guarding the room. The Perception DC of the orcs is 16, so if the rogue's Stealth roll for initiative is 16 or higher, then the orcs do not notice him entering the room. It does not matter if some orc rolled higher initiative than him, because Avoid Notice says use the orc's Perception DC not the orc's Perception roll. And because the rogue rolled Stealth his Surprise Attack ability, even if he rolled less than 16 and all the orcs spotted him (they have the same Perception DC of either all see him or none see him) if they are slower in initiative than him then he can catch them flat-footed for a sneak attack.
3) Wands can be used only once a day. My players ignore overcharging a wand for a second use, because that could ruin the wand. Thus, a spellcaster could have a wand in hand during combat and Activate it. Then the spellcaster would have to put away the wand (one Interact action) and pull out another wand (a second Interact action). Two actions to switch wands is a lot of actions in the middle of combat. It could be one action, since dropping the wand on the floor is a Release free action, but who wants to drop an expensive magic item?
Wands are expensive, so affording another wand is not easy. A wand of a 1st-level spell is a 3rd-level iten costing 60 gp, a wand of a 2nd-level spell if a 5th-level item costing 160 gp, a wand of a 3rd-level spell is a 7th-level spell costing 360 gp, etc. For comparison, a +1 striking weapon is a 4th-level item costing 100 gp. Furthermore, a 7th-level spellcaster is casting 4th-level spells, so a 3rd-level spell on a wand looks lackluster compared to their best spells. A +1 armor potency rune for protection is a better investment at 5th level than a wand of a 2nd-level spell.
My party includes a rogue with Sorcerer Multiclass Dedication who carries a few wands of 1st-level spell looted off enemies. He knows very few spells, so the wands increase his options. But he looted them at 6th level, so the wand spells were not impressive compared to his cantrips.
4) Group coercion is given as an example of a feat that enables something new. Without Group Coercion, the intimidating PC has to coerce the crowd one by one with individual Intimidation checks. That takes more time and has a higher chance that a few in the crowd won't be coerced. I typically roleplay it as one long intimidating speech. lasting 1 minute per person, with multiple Intimidation checks at the end.
Other cases can be cobbled together with the abilties that the PC has. Catfall lets a PC trained in Acrobatics treat a fall as 10 feet shorter, so that they could land on their feet unharmed after dropping 15 feet. A PC without Catfall could instead make multipe Climb checks to climb down the 15 feet or attempt Grab an Edge twice to try to prevent the falling damage by grabbing something every 5 feet down.
As for class feats and critical specializations, those are special actions that only highly trained people can pull off. An amateur trying them would have no luck.
5) How powerful is a +1 circumstance bonus? It is a nice perk but not worth taking an action to gain during the time pressure of combat. A +2 circumstance bonus is sometimes worth taking one action, such as the +2 circumstance bonus from Raise a Shield.
Item and status bonuses are easier to judge mathematically. Imagine a fighter with a 60% chance of hitting an enemy. Give the fighter a +1 magic sword and that goes up to 65%. But the chance of a critical hit goes up, too. Let's call the average damage from regular hit D. On a 60% attack, that is 50% chance of D damage and 10% chance of 2D damage, which comes out to an expected damage of 0.7D per Strike. On a 65% attack, that is a 50% chance of D damage and a 15% chance of 2D damage, so the expected damage per Strike is 0.8D. (0.8D)/(0.7D) = 1.14, so that is 14% more damage. +1 is 14% better.
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It is ok to let bonuses stack once in a while, if it is a unique circumstance and not one the player can constantly try to replicate. But the handing out bonus advice will often apply in circumstances where you can't follow the expert anyway. For example, maybe your player jumps off a balcony to strike at an enemy below them. Or maybe your bard makes a really good argument with a Diplomacy check, and they're the primary roller.
I'd recommend reading the Gamemastery Guide next. It's got useful insight to many of these questions.
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1) What is a disrupt?
There's some actions that clearly can disrupt and there's some actions that can clearly be disrupted, but does disrupt only apply to those things? Like, if you trip a mage, can their "until next turn" concentrate spell be disrupted? What if you trip someone as a reaction? What if you're using a ready action/reaction to be specifically disruptive to a spell caster?Attack of Opportunity says it disrupts a move action on a critical success, is the same true for a ready-strike action/reaction which triggers on a move action?
So there's "disrupt" the keyword that has special rules meaning, and there's just foiling someone's plan.
If someone starts casting a spell next to a fighter, that can provoke an attack of opportunity because most spells require somatic components, and those have the manipulate trait.
Now, if the fighter gets a critical success, then attack of opportunity says the spell is disrupted. This is the special rules meaning of disrupted. The spell doesn't happen, but it's still spent by the caster.
Of course, if the fighter gets only a regular hit, but still deals enough damage to kill the caster, that would also prevent the spell from finishing, but that's not disrupting as the special rules keyword.
And note: while movement can provoke attacks of opportunity, AoOs don't disrupt move actions. (A different ability, Stand Still, does.)
You can ready an action to hit someone if they cast a spell next to you. However, that isn't a special ability with rules saying it'll disrupt the spell. So then you'd better hope you hit them so hard they get knocked out. This is a big difference with earlier editions, where just taking damage while casting a spell might break it.
Likewise, sustaining a spell doesn't actually provoke AoOs. There's no widespread ability that many characters have that can disrupt that kind of action.
2) Are non-perception initiative rolls just flavor?
If your wizard has 16 dex and is trained in stealth, they have a +6 stealth at level 1. And maybe a wisdom of 10 and only trained in Perception, so +3. Wouldn't you rather use stealth for initiative then? It's a juicy little bonus.
Thanks everyone for the replies, they've been really helpful in getting my head around these concepts!
@ Captain Morgan
After reading the introduction/basic in the GMing guide I'm pretty sure you're right and that's what I should read next. It looks like it's going to answer a lot of the little/less solid questions I had leftover, too. I was going to just start a one shot, so I'm glad you directed me to it!
Just interjecting where I have a divergence of opinion
2) Are non-perception initiative rolls just flavor?
No. Mechanically initiative is important. As are the other exploration pahse options like defend.
My players are still not really taking full advantage of this. Maxing a skill like Stealth or a social skill like Deception or Initimidation, can give you a good option for initiative. A lot of classes cap out at Expert Perception, and don't prioritise Wisdom. Whereas every class can get Master at a skill by 7 and Legendary in a skill at 15.
That is a lot of bonus initiative that many players miss.
5)How powerful is a +1 circumstance bonus
If it is for a check that has a good critical success result and you are going to be using it a lot then it is very good. A +1 is worth about 10% in other d20 games. In PF2 it is worth more like 15-20%. Consider a Great Gnoll martial who is planning on using Trip a lot that is a good bonus, or a Songbird Strix Bard who is going to be using perform a lot.