spontaneous vs prepared cantrips


Rules Discussion


If I understand the rules correctly prepared spellcasters can change their cantrips every day when they pick their daily spellswhile spontaneous spellcasters can only change their cantrips by spending lots of downtime.

So prepared spellcasters seem alot more flexible with their cantrips then their spontaneous counterparts.
So I am trying to figure out what options spontaneous spellcasters have to compensate for that disadvantage.
Spend class feats to learn more cantrips or multiclass and get more cantrips.
Carry multiple staffs with an different cantrips and pick a different staff during the daily preparations depending on the cantrip you need.
are there any other options?
or shouldn't I be worried about cantrips that much?


In my experience...items. Items in general can have cantrips on them, some Spellhearts in particular are useful for a scaling attack. Ancestry feats can also have them sometimes, and depending on your list and character concept you may not need very many. The multiple staves thing is definitely too much and probably won't work that well for how expensive it is...try not to worry quite that much.


They don't get anything exclusive to compensate, but it really isn't that big of a deal. At least from everything I've seen and played, swapping out cantrips is rather rare. Spontaneous casters that really want different cantrips commonly pick up Cantrip Expansion and the odd staff.

If you really need to do it anyway, a spontaneous caster can do so when leveling up or via retraining.

Sovereign Court

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There's a fair amount of low level items that give you some specific cantrip. Worth picking up a few of them.

In general I aim to have several different attack cantrips so I can respond to different situations. I particularly like:

Telekinetic Projectile: three different damage types and a d6 damage die. Downside: some monsters resist all three of those damage types.

Electric Arc: hit two different enemies, and they have to save instead of your rolling an attack roll. Downside: reflex is often a good monster save, and electricity resistance isn't rare.

Produce Flame: fire weakness is among the most common. Also, if you have to do melee, you can at least benefit from flanking. Downside: fire immunity/resistance.

Ray of Frost: 120ft range can be very helpful. Downside: cold immunity/resistance isn't rare.

Disrupt Undead: d6 damage die, and effective against incorporeal undead.

Divine Lance (with a Good deity): many enemies are evil, and fiends almost always have substantial Good weakness.

I'm also a big fan of spellhearts for my casters, because you can use your own spellcasting proficiency even on the spells that aren't normally on your list. So as a cleric you can get Scatter Scree or Produce Flame so you have a decent ranged attack cantrip that's not specialized in evil/undead enemies.


Don't forget Spout! An area-damage Reflex spell with a useful elemental trait and situational extra width. Most people will understandably look at Scatter Scree first, but Spout's got a few little advantages. c:


There's so much "spontaneous vs prepared" since D&D 3.0 that's I think this is now a philosophical question kkkkk.

Here in PF2 we have a curious situation where prepared casters have to guess what spells they will need in that day (but a spell substitution wizard can workaround this) that's usually enforces the prepared spell-caster to prefer the most allrounder spells at same time that in cantrips they have more flexibility than spontaneous due the ability to switch then daily while the spontaneous are the opposite.

About "circumvent" the spontaneous caster cantrip limitations you need to increase the number of cantrip you have available to cast probably the best options are take a staff that give you a cantrip you don't already have (or you can retrain a cantrip that you already have that's is the same of the staff that you recently acquired to improve you cantrip list later) or as suggested by Ascalaphus put spellhearts in your weapons to expand your cantrip options. But avoid items that give cantrips that's don't progress with you.
You can also take Cantrip Expansion feats, every spellcaster class have this feat, also you can take more cantrip thought some ancestry heritage/feats or multiclass dedications. But pay attention to not select a feat that gives you a cantrip from another tradition or casting stats, this will affect the spells attack and DC effectiveness.


Hammerspace wrote:

If I understand the rules correctly prepared spellcasters can change their cantrips every day when they pick their daily spellswhile spontaneous spellcasters can only change their cantrips by spending lots of downtime.

So prepared spellcasters seem alot more flexible with their cantrips then their spontaneous counterparts.
So I am trying to figure out what options spontaneous spellcasters have to compensate for that disadvantage.
Spend class feats to learn more cantrips or multiclass and get more cantrips.
Carry multiple staffs with an different cantrips and pick a different staff during the daily preparations depending on the cantrip you need.
are there any other options?
or shouldn't I be worried about cantrips that much?

First of all, five cantrips generally has you covered. Two combat cantrips, plus a two/one split on divination/utility that can go either way. If you've got a familiar, you can have a sixth on tap that you only get on days when you need it. The number of times you need to switch out a cantrip for something else, vs. just picking up a spare cantrip from the many sources that provide it? Pretty small.

But, to answer your question, they get signature spells. A prepared caster who expects to need a dispel pretty much has to prep it in the highest slot so they know it'll be relevant. A spontaneous caster with a signature dispel can scale it to the appropriate spell level for the situation, and will have a second on hand if needed.


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If just looking at Cantrips, no - prepared spellcasting is much better. There is no compensating benefit to being a spontaneous spellcaster.

When you get spell slots there is compensation. Spontaneous spellcaster will need to choose general purpose spells. But during any particular day they can repeatedly cast whichever of their spells are relevant. The won't run into the problem that prepared spellcasters do of preparing a spell and then never finding a situation where casting it would be worth the action cost.

And when a spontaneous caster gets several spell levels of spell slots, signature spells means that they will have 6 - 8 or more spells to choose between when casting their higher level combat worthy spell slots. Prepared spellcasters still have more choices of spells to prepare in those spell slots, but will have to pick them in the morning - usually before knowing what they are going to be facing that day. Once they have chosen, their spell selection for those top level spells is fixed rather limited. The only character build that can circumvent that is the Spell Substitution Thesis Wizard.


breithauptclan wrote:

If just looking at Cantrips, no - prepared spellcasting is much better. There is no compensating benefit to being a spontaneous spellcaster.

When you get spell slots there is compensation. Spontaneous spellcaster will need to choose general purpose spells. But during any particular day they can repeatedly cast whichever of their spells are relevant. The won't run into the problem that prepared spellcasters do of preparing a spell and then never finding a situation where casting it would be worth the action cost.

And when a spontaneous caster gets several spell levels of spell slots, signature spells means that they will have 6 - 8 or more spells to choose between when casting their higher level combat worthy spell slots. Prepared spellcasters still have more choices of spells to prepare in those spell slots, but will have to pick them in the morning - usually before knowing what they are going to be facing that day. Once they have chosen, their spell selection for those top level spells is fixed rather limited. The only character build that can circumvent that is the Spell Substitution Thesis Wizard.

Exactly. Cantrips are part of a larger package, and yes, prepared casters have an advantage if looking at that narrow portion, much like spontaneous will have an advantage when one wants to spam slots for an unexpected string of enemies who're vulnerable to one of your spells.

It's a matter of playstyle as much as mechanics IMO, and if uncomfortable with having one's Cantrips (semi-) locked in, then prepared casting might be the more enjoyable route.


Or taking the middle road and becoming a flexible caster, sacrificing a few spell slots to make it happen.


QuidEst wrote:
five cantrips generally has you covered. Two combat cantrips, plus a two/one split on divination/utility that can go either way. If you've got a familiar, you can have a sixth on tap that you only get on days when you need it. The number of times you need to switch out a cantrip for something else, vs. just picking up a spare cantrip from the many sources that provide it? Pretty small.

Yes 5 is reasonable. 7 is better. But once you pick up a couple out of items as well you generally have all you reasonbly need.

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