Just keep in mind the thing i said aboove stoutness and adopted, there are a lot of tables that wont accept that, so make sure to discuss it with your gm first since that's 2 feats.
shroudb wrote: Just keep in mind the thing i said aboove stoutness and adopted, there are a lot of tables that wont accept that, so make sure to discuss it with your gm first since that's 2 feats. I will say that character was rised by dwarfs as orphan, should work for roleplay reasons. My GM is my long friend and he is not picky about stuff like that as long as there is any backstory explanation.
But what do you think about build now? I kind of miss having Brutal Shove and Powerful Shove, but Shatter Defense for flat-footed should be good too. I know True Strike is big for Fighters, especially with Savage Critical now when I think about it (19-20 auto crit with double dice roll) but feat tax is big. I also think I miss Blind-Fight and Brutal Finish to follow Power Attack, but I guess True Strike->Power Attack or True Strike->Knockdown when you really need it to land is better.
Well, build was made in case Free Achertype is not allowed. If it will be allowed then it will be different story and I can fit all feats I miss there. So we will see, but better prepare build for worse scenario.
Also what do you think about staying with Hammer vs Polearm with Guisarme? I only picked Hammer since it has Prone on Crit, which I thought will synergize very well with True Strike and Fighter accuracy + AoO on enemies trying to get up can lead to them getting proned back on ass from AoO crit. But I don't really mind weapon that much.
You will barely notice Savage Critical on TS attacks, tbh. In most situations you will naturally crit on a 19 on your first attack. The feat is really good for subsequent attacks, though.
In general I think the build is pretty solid. Going from Shadow to Imperial Sorcerer was also a clever choice. You get access to longstrider that way.
About Free Archetype, i feel obliged to repeat that even if it is allowed, I wouldn't recommend it for your first game even if you are all experienced TTRPG players. Will make learning the system slower and make combats take longer since you need to check more stuff.
I prefer Reach over hammer spec. That said, there is a dwarven advanced weapon in Treasure Vault (the Dorn Dergar is its name) that has both reach and flail crit spec (same one as hammer). You can get proficiency with it with the Dwarf Weapon Familiarity feat. You can get it at level 5 instead of Nimble Hooves. 5ft reach is better than 5ft speed most of the time. You would go from d12 to d10, though.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: shroudb wrote: Just keep in mind the thing i said aboove stoutness and adopted, there are a lot of tables that wont accept that, so make sure to discuss it with your gm first since that's 2 feats. I will say that character was rised by dwarfs as orphan, should work for roleplay reasons. My GM is my long friend and he is not picky about stuff like that as long as there is any backstory explanation.
i'm not saying that you can't be Adopted by Dwarves and you cant have access to some of their ancestry feats.
i'm just saying that the feat outright tells you that psysiological feats are out of reach.
Similarly as an example to not be able to get nimble elf, bite attacks, or wings, and etc.
So it's up to the GM if stoutness is based on the psysiology of dwarves or not. In my opinion (and in my games) it is, so it is out of bounds.
---
as far as the build goes, it looks good imo.
As an optimizer and DM, my thoughts:
1. Take Combat Reflexes as soon as you can get. You'll see why as you play more. Extra reactions for Attacks of Opportunity are big in this game.
2. Your build looks fine. It might be hard to set up the fear hits. I've seen many a player try to set up the fear build and it doesn't do as much as they like too often. Not enough actions a lot of the time and boss will saves are usually super high.
But it shouldn't matter too much as a fighter you'll be doing lots of damage hitting things and using your AoOs to maximum effect with knockdown. That will be enough to kill nearly everything.
On a side note, I'm playing a monk right now with another player playing a fighter. Monks make amazing control tanks and set the fighter up nicely:
Flurry of Maneuver trip ends or shortens a lot of fights.
Monks are way better than I thought they were when I focused solely on damage. Monks are the better control tank if built right than a Champion or any other class I've seen.
roquepo wrote: You will barely notice Savage Critical on TS attacks, tbh. In most situations you will naturally crit on a 19 on your first attack. The feat is really good for subsequent attacks, though.
In general I think the build is pretty solid. Going from Shadow to Imperial Sorcerer was also a clever choice. You get access to longstrider that way.
About Free Archetype, i feel obliged to repeat that even if it is allowed, I wouldn't recommend it for your first game even if you are all experienced TTRPG players. Will make learning the system slower and make combats take longer since you need to check more stuff.
I prefer Reach over hammer spec. That said, there is a dwarven advanced weapon in Treasure Vault (the Dorn Dergar is its name) that has both reach and flail crit spec (same one as hammer). You can get proficiency with it with the Dwarf Weapon Familiarity feat. You can get it at level 5 instead of Nimble Hooves. 5ft reach is better than 5ft speed most of the time. You would go from d12 to d10, though.
You have better recommendation than Savage Critical? Let me know.
Yeah, I still debate if at first 2nd level spell I should take Blur or Longstrider. Fleet + Hoves + Fiendiesh Wings already give me a lot of mobility and way to deal with flying enemies (albeit from level 9 but still). Blur is one of few sources of all damage reduction almost and 20% miss chance for enemy but longstrider goes long way too.
Also I just realized that Prone status already inflicts flat-foot. I am so stupid. I don't need Shatter Defense or Brutish shove, knockdown and impr. knockdown already does the job, lol.
So I have opening on level 8th class feat... Maybe Sudden Charge or Brutal Finish to have something to followup Power Attack? Or Intimidating Strike when Demoralize fails. Or Maybe Furious Focus so I have Flexibility slot free I can juggle between stuff like Intimidating Strike/Brutal Finish etc. and check them out?
As far as Reach vs Hammer/Flail spec, yeah. I hear you. I just think it's kind of waste to not have good crit rider on class that have best crit chance in game, which can save action points on Knockdowns. I checked that Dorn Dergar and it seems really nice, but I had to waste Ancestry Feat on that... which reminds me that I may have better idea than Dwarf ancenstry and that would allow me to put two more feats I think....
Deriven Firelion wrote: As an optimizer and DM, my thoughts:
1. Take Combat Reflexes as soon as you can get. You'll see why as you play more. Extra reactions for Attacks of Opportunity are big in this game.
2. Your build looks fine. It might be hard to set up the fear hits. I've seen many a player try to set up the fear build and it doesn't do as much as they like too often. Not enough actions a lot of the time and boss will saves are usually super high.
But it shouldn't matter too much as a fighter you'll be doing lots of damage hitting things and using your AoOs to maximum effect with knockdown. That will be enough to kill nearly everything.
On a side note, I'm playing a monk right now with another player playing a fighter. Monks make amazing control tanks and set the fighter up nicely:
Flurry of Maneuver trip ends or shortens a lot of fights.
Monks are way better than I thought they were when I focused solely on damage. Monks are the better control tank if built right than a Champion or any other class I've seen.
I am debating Impr. Knockdown vs Combat Reflex at 10th level. The great thing about Impr. Knockdow that it's pretty much free prone and can be even boosted to ensure that result with True Strike. One has to be taken on 10th, one on 12th. Right now I wonder what to change Shatter Defense to at 8th level as I figured I put there by mistake since I forgot knockdown already does flat-foot.
Regarding intimidation:
Yeah, I was debating whenever the Intimidation build is optimal. However, as I was looking at my feats I realized that Intimidation build is really not taxing on feats at all, as it doesn't require any class feat.
Glare/Prowness/Resistance/Stare to Death/Battle Cry etc. are all Skills/General feats so not like I have other "optimized" options there that really are super competetive (already took Fleet, Toughness and Acuman). Remorsless Lash is Ancestry level 1 feat, so also not taxing at all. Shatter Defense was my only "fear class feat" but now that I know it's not necessery then there is pretty much nothing against fear build part going on.
Since Demoralize doesn't count for MAP it's nice opening or 3rd action to avoid MAP. If it's hits: cool, if not: well, time to maul it and then try to demoralize another target. Battle Cry allow me to even start on initiative to take my chance, tough I wouldn't try it on boss. It's kind of free opportunity cost, it only cotsts me some skill/general feats. Also it's not like I have to demoralize on turn 1. I can wait for my party to apply some status debuffs or will saves debuffs first and then take my chance.
In theory I could just take Intimidating Strike so when my Demoralize fail, I can still just smack it and ride from there. It's 2 action so no Knockdown that turn, but it's an option. Dunno if worth the trouble. Then I just need to keep hitting it for rest of combat and it will stay frighten. But I can always True Strike Intimidating Strike and fish crit to prone with Hammer/Flail anyway. Though now when I think about it the Intimidating Strike having 2 Actions makes it hard to follow with Strike to ensure Remorseless Lash will work as I need to Strike already freighten target.
Hmmm... Maybe I should give up that Intimidation idea, take Human or half-elf instead as my Ancestry, put CHA points into INT instead to get more Lore skills and instead of Sorcerer go for Wizard Dedication and then go with Multitalented: Magus on level 13 for Spellstrike? Or just stay Wizard dedication. Sorc is good though for always having slot for True Strike.
I would say think about things you can add on to do cool things once you knock something down. It's pretty easy do. A lot of creatures have weak Reflex saves. So whatever you can add on to smash things when they're prone, stack those up.
Savage Critical is fine even if you are just doing 2 attacks on your turn. Way better for other builds, but good nevertheless (it will also be a boost against enemies with extremely high AC). As for other alternatives, I would look into the 2 AoO related stances. They are really good despite being level 10 feats.
I second picking Combat Reflexes ASAP. It is better for your build than Improved Knockdown, specially if you get hammer/flail crit spec.
Demoralize-related Fighter feats are quite good as long as you are not the only source of Frightened in your party. If your casters like Fear or you have a Bard with Dirge of Doom, you will have little problem turning your abilities on. If you are the only source of the condition, you will struggle a bit, though.
You can use wands with arcane spells of any level without doing any check. Just buy a Wand of 2nd level Longstrider around level 8. Before that, you can prepare it on your slots, but you are going to cast that every single day exactly once, perfect wand value.
I personally don't think Mountain Stoutness in specific is particularly ancestry-related (like, everyone can have a resilient body), but I agree with shroudb in that you should just ask your GM whenever you can and check what they think. The sooner the better.
Deriven Firelion wrote: Monks are way better than I thought they were when I focused solely on damage. Monks are the better control tank if built right than a Champion or any other class I've seen. Both Bo Staff builds and Grapple builds are outright disgusting. I love them.
Deriven Firelion wrote: I would say think about things you can add on to do cool things once you knock something down. It's pretty easy do. A lot of creatures have weak Reflex saves. So whatever you can add on to smash things when they're prone, stack those up. Like what for example (to smash and... target Reflex?)?
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: I would say think about things you can add on to do cool things once you knock something down. It's pretty easy do. A lot of creatures have weak Reflex saves. So whatever you can add on to smash things when they're prone, stack those up. Like what for example (to smash and... target Reflex?)? You don't need to target Reflex. Trip targets reflex saves. So you're already doing it.
If you're already going knockdown, instead of a maul you could pick up a pick of some kind, toss on a grievous rune, focus on damage once they fall.
Maybe pick up a Magus Archetype, get a spellstrike for a brutal hit once per minute once you set it up with knockdown.
Stack any abilities you can do damage with.
Here is a Fighter Battle Medic/Wizard Aasimar version without Intimidation related stuff, but instead being made with Wizard Dedication for more spells + using Ring of Wizardy + Endless Grimoire for True Strikes slots.
Also I took Human to be able to start with proficiency in new dwarven weapon Dorn-Dergar, which is 2-handed, 1d10, Reach, Razing and Flail (so Prone on critical hits). Will also suit backstory of being rised by dwarfs for Adoped Ancestry later. This allowed me to squeeze in Sudden Charge too and Master Wizard Spellcasting!, though I lost Nimble Hoves, but I think it's fair trade. Dunno if Dorn-Dergar is worth it but it's best of both worlds I think for Fighter. This one is Aasimar build for good-version of previous Tiefling evil-build.
I also changed Savage Crits for Master Spellcasting and grabbed Disruptive Stance later to be bigger threat for enemy casters. As you guys advised I took Combat Reflex first and Imp. Knockdown later
Also this build is full fledged Medic with Battle medicine, ward medic, godless healing and so on instead of all Intimidation stuff, to add healing (both in and out of combat) to wizard buffs/utility spells. Also due to INT bumbs I can take a lot of additiona trained Skills, which I leave blank as it depends on team but I can always cover something.
In the end this build is Legendary in Athletics, Arcana and Medicine.
Plus flying, so I don't know why I take Cloud Jump but I didn't have better idea. Anyone has better one?
I am really of happy how this one turned out thanks to your input guys. This build is way more versitile.
Let me know what you think
______________________________________________________________________
Ancestry: Human (Heritage: Aasimar)
Ancestry Feat: Unconventional Weaponry (Dwarven Dorn-Dergar)
Background: Dreams of Vengeacne (Trained in Athletics and Gladiator Lore)
Class: Fighter
Initial Ability Scores (2x Free): STR: 18 (22); DEX:10 (12) ; CON:14 (20) ; INT:14 (20) ; WIS:12 (18) ; CHA:10 (12)
Initial Skills: Trained in Athletics, Medicine, Gladiator Lore, Deception, Arcana, Acrobatics, Warfare Lore
Initial Feats: Titan Wrestler, Power Attack, Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block,
2nd: Skill Feat: Assurance (Medicine); Class Feat: Wizard Dedication
3rd: Bravery, General Feat: Ancestral Paragon->Natural Ambition (Sudden Charge); Expert in Athletics
4th: Skill Feat: Battle Medicine ; Class Feat: Knockdown
5th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; Ancestry Feat: General Training (Fleet) ; Fighter Weapon Mastery (Flails); Expert in Medicine; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
6th: Skill Feat: Continual Recovery; Class Feat: Basic Wizard Spellcasting
7th: Battlefield Surveyor, General Feat: Toughness ; Master in Athletics ; Weapon Specialization
8th: Skill Feat: Godless Healing; Class Feat: Arcane Breadth
9th: Ancestry Feat: Celestial Wings; Combat Flexibility (Furious Focus), Juggernaut; Expert in Arcana
10th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; Skill Feat: Ward Medic ; Class Feat: Combat Reflex; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
11th: Armor Expertise, Fighter Expertise, General Feat: Adopted Ancestry (Dwarfs); Master in Arcana
12th: Skill Feat: Robust Recovery; Class Feat: Improved Knockdown
13th: Ancestry Feat: Mountain's Stoutness ; Master in Medicine; Weapon Legend
14th: Skill Feat: Wall Jump; Class Feat: Expert Wizard Spellcasting
15th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; General Feat: Advanced First Aid; Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Combat Flexibility (Whirlwind Strike); Legendary in Arcana; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
16th: Skill Feat: Risky Surgery; Class Feat: Disruptive Stance
17th: Ancestry Feat: Eternal Wings; Armor Mastery; Legendary in Athletics
18th: Skill Feat: Legendary Medic ; Class Feat: Master Wizard Spellcasting
19th: General Feat: Acumen (Will Saves); Legendary in Medicine; Versatile Legend
20th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, INT, DEX; Skill Feat: Cloud Jump; Class Feat: Ultimate Flexibility (Determination); Trained in Skill (INT increase)
Build looks really good, but I want to add one little thing you need to consider that you might have skipped.
Battle Medicine needs a free hand, so you need to release your grip on your 2 hand weapon to be able to do it in combat. You cannot strike with that weapon until your regrip, so in reality, Battle Medicine costs you 2 actions.
It is not a big deal, though. If you need to heal, you need to heal.
Edit: Ah, also try to convince your future casters of picking Enlarge (or pick it yourself). You will have a good time with that.
roquepo wrote: Build looks really good, but I want to add one little thing you need to consider that you might have skipped.
Battle Medicine needs a free hand, so you need to release your grip on your 2 hand weapon to be able to do it in combat. You cannot strike with that weapon until your regrip, so in reality, Battle Medicine costs you 2 actions.
It is not a big deal, though. If you need to heal, you need to heal.
Edit: Ah, also try to convince your future casters of picking Enlarge (or pick it yourself). You will have a good time with that.
I can heal myself once per combat per 1 hour anyway, so no big deal. Besides I bet we will forget about it 99% of time, focusing on trying to remember more important rules than changing grips in middle of combat with tons of notes trying to remember who has what buffs and debuffs :D.
Besides I was sitting there looking at my Fighter builds and honestly apart from Medicine or Intimidation.. there is not much else for Fighter to put his Skill feats in for to have something "active" to play with. Other skill doesn't provide anything that I feel would be impactful for a Fighter to "do something else than smack stuff".
Truth to be told, If I had in party Druid or Ranger or Cleric or all 3... I would fully expect without me even mentioning it that all 3 would take medicine and all medicine skill feats and I wouldn't be surprised. Well, maybe apart from druid, cause goodberry. But Medicine is very very good and quite cheap investment, since it's never a class feat.
As far as spell go, yeah, I will chose spells according to my party. If I will have "buffers" then I will just invest in True Strikes mostly.
I am also thinking if Power Attack is good investment. I mean it's big damage (2 actions) that combos really well with True Strike, but most of the time I feel like unless I crit on AoO I will be spending those 2 actions of Knockdown anyway.
And Power Attack costs me Power Attack and Furious Focus Flexibility feat. I am wondering if Lunge + Lunge Stance wouldn't be better becasue with 10 reach weapon that would give me... 20 feet range? or 15? Anyway, seems like nice way to use Combat Reflex and prone on crits.
Though without Power Attack, the True Strike loses a lot
You have some other stuff to do with skill feats mid-combat besides Demoralize and Battle Medicine.
Diplomacy has Bon Mot, it is good to support casters.
Recall Knowledge is always good to have unless your GM makes it useless. As long as they give you information you or some of your party members can work with (relevant immunities, resistances or weaknesses, special abilities or weak saves) it is a good use of an action. There you have like 6 or 7 different skills.
Power attack is good early, but it falls off a lot as soon as you start getting striking and property runes. Always good to have in case physical resistances apprear, though. You can pick it early on and retrain out of it later if you want.
As for TS, it will still have value with regular strikes. For example, if an ally aids you, you are rolling twice that +1 to +4 bonus they are giving you. If you are using a consumable like an Oil or a Talisman, it is also a way to increase its value. It also ignores concelment and hidden, which comes up a lot, at least in my games. And even then, you have a relative +2 to hit/crit compared to other martials and you are using a d10 weapon. I'd call that more than good enough for TS. Obviously not as good as a Magus or a Power Attack greatpick Fighter using it, but definitely good.
Finally, one last note of advice is that you will not find a perfect build, there will always be some tradeoffs. Don't worry much about losing some relative value compared to another build if you are satisfied with everything else.
Maybe I missed it but something to realize.
Lot of flight actions require acrobatics checks and some can only be done if you meet the proficiency required of it
So yeah you could fly, but your gonna fall to the ground the moment you have to make fly checks beyond simple movement.
This includes things done against you while you fly
I built a bastard sword gauntlet buckler fighter with investigator dedication to use devise a stratagem on his press actions to always have the correct press action
The weapon and shield combination let him qualify for two hand, free hand, shield and dual wield feats.
Issue I ran into is I didn't have with feat slots to make it work .
Ended up streamlining it and keeping the investigator dedication.
Knowing when my disarm press action will critically hit is nice.
roquepo wrote: ...
I prefer Reach over hammer spec...
You can get Reach and hammer spec... well, flail spec... with the Meteor Hammer.
roquepo wrote: You have some other stuff to do with skill feats mid-combat besides Demoralize and Battle Medicine.
Diplomacy has Bon Mot, it is good to support casters.
Recall Knowledge is always good to have unless your GM makes it useless. As long as they give you information you or some of your party members can work with (relevant immunities, resistances or weaknesses, special abilities or weak saves) it is a good use of an action. There you have like 6 or 7 different skills.
Power attack is good early, but it falls off a lot as soon as you start getting striking and property runes. Always good to have in case physical resistances apprear, though. You can pick it early on and retrain out of it later if you want.
As for TS, it will still have value with regular strikes. For example, if an ally aids you, you are rolling twice that +1 to +4 bonus they are giving you. If you are using a consumable like an Oil or a Talisman, it is also a way to increase its value. It also ignores concelment and hidden, which comes up a lot, at least in my games. And even then, you have a relative +2 to hit/crit compared to other martials and you are using a d10 weapon. I'd call that more than good enough for TS. Obviously not as good as a Magus or a Power Attack greatpick Fighter using it, but definitely good.
Finally, one last note of advice is that you will not find a perfect build, there will always be some tradeoffs. Don't worry much about losing some relative value compared to another build if you are satisfied with everything else.
I guess I will maybe retrain it once I get to striking runes for Lunge and then I can use Flexibility for Brutal Finish or something like that. Can always pick Lunge Stance instead of Disruptive Stance and and use Improved Flexibility to get Disruptive Stance.
Yeah, heh, I wish there was a pick with reach :D, I would give up prone on crit for that I think. Though this build is flexible when it comes to weapon choice. Dorn Dergar is like child between polearm and maul so it's quite tempting choice, less damage than pick on crit, but prone on crit to provoke AoO is net more damage if AoO hits.
The other choices for this build would be: Gnome flickmace (Flail + reach so prone on crit, also requires feat) with free-hand for medicine, Asp Coil (reach and 1h but no flail/hammre but also no feat) War Flail (Flail crit + Sweep), Meteor Hammer (worse Dorn Dergar, but doesn't cost Feat to use), Maul (classic, no feat investment), Gill Hook (1d10, reach, no prone on crit but no feat investment), Halberd (1d10 reach, polearm but it can change to Slash), Guisarme (1d10, reach but slash).
But overall I think your proposition with Dorn Dergar hits 3 right spots: B damage (least resist), Reach, Flail (prones on crits). Razing (double damage against structures) I don't know how good it is, might be awesome when hitting golems?
Martialmasters wrote: Maybe I missed it but something to realize.
Lot of flight actions require acrobatics checks and some can only be done if you meet the proficiency required of it
So yeah you could fly, but your gonna fall to the ground the moment you have to make fly checks beyond simple movement.
I just need Fly for utility (to skip climbs, jumps, jumping off cliffs etc.) and when there is/are flying enemies so I am not useless as Melee. Ideally to just Knockdown flying enemy and get fight back on ground.
That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself.
Pixel Popper wrote: roquepo wrote: ...
I prefer Reach over hammer spec...
You can get Reach and hammer spec... well, flail spec... with the Meteor Hammer. Yeah, but I don't really have anything else to get on level 1 human ancestry feat. I arleady use Natural Ambition and General Training anyway in this build so grabbing advanced weapon is quite good. Also ties into roleplay backstory of being rised by dwarfs. Dorn Dergar is nice trading reach for 1d10 vs 1d12 on Maul. 1d8 might be too low.
Though I could then go for Adopted Ancestry (Dwarf) faster (on level 1 or 3) and get access to Mountain’s Stoutness on level 11 and on level 13 maybe take Heroes’ Call or Dwarven Weapon Familiarity, which opens up Dorn Dergar again so it's pretty much the same in the end. I could go with different adopted ancestry, but looking at ancestry feats, I don't see anything else good for heavy front line fighter as Mountain’s Stoutness combined with Toughness.
The other combo would be to forgo adopted ancestry, use meteor hammer and use 1st level feat to get low-light vision and darkvision on level 13, but darkvision (as from my DnD experience) is very GM depended, as some just weave it when party is mixed (you have to bother with this one sees, this one not, this one has low-light, this dark, this one carries torch, oh, now it doesn't matter etc.) or some rule it strict and then it matters a lot.
Martialmasters wrote: That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself. Well, better to risk in air than doing nothing on ground. Depending on those checks DC I may snag Assurance (Acrobatics) feat somewhere. I don't have room for increasing Acrobatics as Athletics, Arcana and Medicine are crucial.
Though in theory I can just have Fly spell prepared for that occasion, but that's precious slot. Haste/Enlarge/Longstride + wings may be better combo anyway and my slots are very limited even once I get ring of wizardy + endless grimoire
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Martialmasters wrote: That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself. Well, better to risk in air than doing nothing on ground. Depending on those checks DC I may snag Assurance (Acrobatics) feat somewhere. I don't have room for increasing Acrobatics as Athletics, Arcana and Medicine are crucial. That kinda brings me to my point. You really can't do everything in this edition.
You can dabble in many things, but as far as things that require stat and skill investment, I find my satisfaction of the mechanics of the build fall off after 3.
Things you could do aside from risking falling to your death (depending on scenario of course)
Sudden leap
Ready actions
Give your ranged cover
Not saying flying up there to knock it down is a bad idea. But if you are over a pit, there is high winds, and they have spells or abilities that can force checks on you while you are in the air, well, would be a bad time to just straight up die because of a level 1 gust of wind spell.
Fast question guys: Wizard dedication says:
"Select one arcane school of magic; you don't gain any abilities from your choice of school."
Arcane Schools says:
"If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do), you gain an extra spell slot at each spell level for which you have wizard spell slots. You can prepare only spells of your chosen arcane school in these extra slots. In addition, you can prepare an extra cantrip of your chosen school. You also add another arcane spell of your chosen school to your spellbook."
Does that apply for Wizard dedication? I get extra slots if I chose Divination?
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Fast question guys: Wizard dedication says:
"Select one arcane school of magic; you don't gain any abilities from your choice of school."
Arcane Schools says:
"If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do), you gain an extra spell slot at each spell level for which you have wizard spell slots. You can prepare only spells of your chosen arcane school in these extra slots. In addition, you can prepare an extra cantrip of your chosen school. You also add another arcane spell of your chosen school to your spellbook."
Does that apply for Wizard dedication? I get extra slots if I chose Divination?
Nope, the dedication lets you pick a school but you gain no other benefits from your school selection. There is, however, a feat in the dedication called Arcane School Spell, that will give you the spell associated with the school you chose.
As Martialmasters stated, it seems like you are trying to be proficient at too much. I feel you need to find out what the rest of your party is focusing on and build your character to compliment them. You cannot be great at everything, system is just built that way.
I came into PF2e with the mindset to optimize as well, but as sessions went on (on session 15 now) I am learning to focus my character and not worry about being 'optimized,' but being compatible with my party. Also, as roquepo is pointing out, playing without Free Archetype to learn the system has solid merits. As you play more and more you will fine tune your character concept and get a feel for your overall goals. Retraining is a thing, and it is great, so you're not locked into anything. It sounds like your GM is lenient, so things you cant normally retrain (like Ability scores) he will probably let you fix if you want to go another direction.
For occassional, you can do it yourself airborn support: Arcana + Trick Magic Item + Wand (or Scrolls) of Airwalk ...
Alkarius wrote: Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Fast question guys: Wizard dedication says:
"Select one arcane school of magic; you don't gain any abilities from your choice of school."
Arcane Schools says:
"If you specialize in an arcane school, rather than studying each school equally (as universalists do), you gain an extra spell slot at each spell level for which you have wizard spell slots. You can prepare only spells of your chosen arcane school in these extra slots. In addition, you can prepare an extra cantrip of your chosen school. You also add another arcane spell of your chosen school to your spellbook."
Does that apply for Wizard dedication? I get extra slots if I chose Divination?
Nope, the dedication lets you pick a school but you gain no other benefits. There is, however, a feat in the dedication called Arcane School Spell, that will give you the spell associated with the school you chose.
Also, as Martialmasters stated, it seems like you are trying to be proficient at too much. I think you need to find out what the rest of your party if focusing on and build your character to compliment them. You cannot be great at everything, system is just built that way. Ok, thanks!
I don't think my build draft is proficient in too much. It's Medicine (becasue if it's not Medicine then it would be Initmidation like Hobo-Tiefling one), knocking down targets (as most Fighter builds do) with hammer/flail (seems to be standard choice with Picks) to smack them harder and casting dedication for True Strikes/buffs. Reading around about PF2e Fighters it seems pretty standard. Flying is just always good in every RPG to have as melee and it's not like I have other good Ancestry Feats to get so Versitile Heritage is just nice for level 9+ feats. Most have very meh feats there and wings are pretty darn good for ancestry feat slots.
Though I have version that gives up Wizard Dedication to further expose the healer role and Fighter knockdown role:
1. Basically throwing out Wizard Dedication and taking Blessed One at level 2 (Lay on Hands for one feat, yes please!)
2. At levels 6th and 8th (Instead of Basic casting and Breadth) taking: Lunge and Blind Fight. Then at level 14 taking Lunging Stance instead of Expert Casting and finally on level 18th: Rejuvenating Touch for extra 10HP per turn for 10 turns after I heal myself or someone with Lay on Hands.
3. Changing Trained->Legendary from Arcana to Acrobatics
This also gives me opportunity to have Battle Medicine + Lay on Hands in combat and out of combat. Very "Aasimar Battle Healer" build.
Though that's just another version of the build. PF2e is very modular.
Definitely the "final build" will be influenced by other party members choices. But I like to theory craft different variants and consult my choices.
Pixel Popper wrote: For occassional, you can do it yourself airborn support: Arcana + Trick Magic Item + Wand (or Scrolls) of Airwalk ... Hm, I was wondering if I should put Trick Magic Item in build if I have already Arcane casting. I might put it somewhere for flexibility.
I guess I was implying that it seems you might be stretched a bit thin, but you pointed out you are aware of this.
As a Fighter, you can get 3 skills to Legendary, ignoring all other skills, without outside help. You have interest in Medicine, Intimidation, Athletics, and Arcana, so that's already going to be a juggle. Then you get to factor in CHA for Intimidation, INT of you want to use spells for anything other than buffs or utility, STR and CON because Fighter, and WIS because it's a universally good stat. DEX you can dump, but you will miss it at times when Bulwark doesn't kick in (trip, balance, etc...). Kip Up is one of the best feats in the game for a Fighter dumping DEX, but then you need to factor in Acrobatics.
Blessed One is amazing and will allow you to bench Medicine.
Trick Magic Item is a great feat that anyone will get value out of. Grab any wand you can think of and you have all the utility and versatility you could ask for.
Alkarius wrote: I guess I was implying that it seems you might be stretched a bit thin, but you pointed out you are aware of this.
As a Fighter, you can get 3 skills to Legendary, ignoring all other skills, without outside help. You have interest in Medicine, Intimidation, Athletics, and Arcana, so that's already going to be a juggle. Then you get to factor in CHA for Intimidation, INT of you want to use spells for anything other than buffs or utility, STR and CON because Fighter, and WIS because it's a universally good stat. DEX you can dump, but you will miss it at times when Bulwark doesn't kick in (trip, balance, etc...). Kip Up is one of the best feats in the game for a Fighter dumping DEX, but then you need to factor in Acrobatics.
Blessed One is amazing and will allow you to bench Medicine.
Trick Magic Item is a great feat that anyone will get value out of. Grab any wand you can think of and you have all the utility and versatility you could ask for.
I think you misunderstood or didn't see my previous posts. There were two different builds that I made for Fighter so far:
1. Hobgoblin Tiefling that has Intimidiation, Athletics and Arcana. This one has WIS/CHA and Sorcerer Dedication (Imperial)
2. Human Aasimar that has Medicine, Athletics and Arcana as 3 main skills to get to Legendary. This one has INT/WIS and Wizard Dedication
Those are seperate builds, focused on different stuf (Intimidation+Sorcerer vs Medicine+Wizard). Not one that tries to have it all. I could give up Medicine for Acrobatics if we will have dedicated healer in party, that remains to be seen. Also Blessed One alone wouldn't allow me to bench Medicine. I would have to bench Wizard Dedication to fit Blessed One. Medicine is not really in a way of Blessed One here. But True Strikes is something I really like as an idea for Fighter :)
It's little mess in this thread becasue of me revising builds to accomodate feedback but it's two builds so far.
Gotcha, my bad. Well, you sound like you've got the build ideas in hand, nothing left to do but try them out and see which one you like better. No one build is going to be significantly 'better' than the other, just your preference of playstyle and the party you roll with. And you can always retrain if it gets stale. Enjoy!
Final personal thoughts: I never really thought True Strike was so important for a Fighter, but to each their own. You already have the best accuracy in the game (next to Gunslingers), and when including demoralize, flanking, or any other buffs from a bard or other source, you will hit often, and crit often comparatively. You'll need to stride fairly often, and the action used on True Strike vs the damage increase from a second attack you have to weigh yourself. It is crucial for, say, a Magus with Spellstrike, and has value if you rock Power Attack with a big 2H weapon (without having to stride), but hardly necessary. Final 2 cents.
Alkarius wrote: Gotcha, my bad. Well, you sound like you've got the build ideas in hand, nothing left to do but try them out and see which one you like better. No one build is going to be significantly 'better' than the other, just your preference of playstyle and the party you roll with. And you can always retrain if it gets stale. Enjoy!
Final personal thoughts: I never really thought True Strike was so important for a Fighter, but to each their own. You already have the best accuracy in the game (next to Gunslingers), and when including demoralize, flanking, or any other buffs from a bard or other source, you will hit often, and crit often comparatively. You'll need to stride fairly often, and the action used on True Strike vs the damage increase from a second attack you have to weigh yourself. It is crucial for, say, a Magus with Spellstrike, and has value if you rock Power Attack with a big 2H weapon (without having to stride), but hardly necessary. Final 2 cents.
Sure, I welcome all feedback as I am newbie in system. True Strike is like main thing, but it's also some added utility like ability to prepare Enlarge/Blur or See Invisibility or Ghostly Weapon, having True Seeing later etc. And True Strike allows to ignore circumstance penalties and flat checks for hidden/conceal enemies, so that's plus too. And securing that important strike/knockdown/power attack on boss.
We will see what rest of the party will bring. If we get Wizard, maybe I will think about grabbing Champion for reaction and Aura of Courage? But for now it seems I "grasp" how to build Fighter and what are his strongest sides so now I feel more confident in adjusting it once the time for play will come.
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Martialmasters wrote: That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself. Well, better to risk in air than doing nothing on ground. Depending on those checks DC I may snag Assurance (Acrobatics) feat somewhere. I don't have room for increasing Acrobatics as Athletics, Arcana and Medicine are crucial.
Though in theory I can just have Fly spell prepared for that occasion, but that's precious slot. Haste/Enlarge/Longstride + wings may be better combo anyway and my slots are very limited even once I get ring of wizardy + endless grimoire Not sure what Martialmasters is talking about, but as far as I know you do not need to make a fly check when you are hit.
If you are tripped, you can get knocked out of the air. It's only a DC 15 acrobatics check requiring a reaction to arrest a fall and I usually pick up Cat's Grace to avoid damage on most falls for no action. Get it up to expert or master and you should be ok.
Flying is action intensive though as you have to spend an action every round to remain aloft either moving a bit or hovering. It's usually one action cost per round to fly.
Main thing to remember is using a fly action is a move action for you and the enemy flying. That means they get to AoO you and you get to AoO them.
And some DMs may require a roll to hover, but I'm not sure how many do. I do not require them. I require the action cost to hover or move. I certainly don't require a roll to remain aloft if you are struck. I only do acrobatics checks for flight for hard maneuvers. I don't like lots of rolls increasing failure chances and making combats annoying. But GMs vary in how they view this.
I prefer acrobatics to athletics because of one skill feat - kip up. Becoming prone is fairly common. You drop to zero hp, you become prone. Lots of creatures trip. I think kip up may be the best skill feat in the game
I do usually get my acrobatics to Master for kip up on nearly every character.
For fighters I also like a strong Athletics. Then it just depends on what else I want to do.
nicholas storm wrote: I prefer acrobatics to athletics because of one skill feat - kip up. Becoming prone is fairly common. You drop to zero hp, you become prone. Lots of creatures trip. I think kip up may be the best skill feat in the game Well, truth to be told: the only real Athletic check for this build is Knockdown, which is then upgraded to Improved Knockdown which skips the Athletic check totally.
Now if I make that build with Gnome Flickmace instead I could have free hand for Grapples and use Snagging Strike or Knockdown followed by Dazing Blow. This way I would have Athletics for Grapple too and with Free hand I could occasionally Shove. Dragging Strike is also nice as it flat-foot on failure. However, one-handed Fighter seem to require more Feat investment than two-handed so if I want to stay with Wiz Dedication I think two-handed works better.
But till level 12 I am still relying on that Knockdown where Athletic is very important. Crucial.
But I could retrain Alethetics once I get Improved Knockdown at level 12 and then increase Acrobatics and grab Ki Up.
Good news is that my wife will probably play full Medic+Healer Druid so I can give up Medicine and go for Acrobatics on my bumps probably. Though what if healer is down, whos gonna heal her? :D
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: ... Though what if healer is down, whos gonna heal her? :D Elixirs of Life and/or Healing Potions are good, feat-free back-ups to pick up a downed Healer...
Here is Aasimar Fighter Wizard Reach Tripper build version without Medicine, but with Kip Up at level 10th (could get it faster but then I would delay Master Athletic, still not think it's good idea with Knockdown as main focus). There are couple of empty slots as I had no idea what to take and initial trained skill are also mostly just thrown there without thought. Also since there is Lunging Stance I changed lvl 20 to Boundless Reprisals. I also wonder what I can retrain Power Attack into since I am sadly locked into 1st level Feats and I already got Sudden Strike.
Ancestry: Human (Heritage: Aasimar)
Ancestry Feat: Unconventional Weaponry (Dwarven Dorn-Dergar)
Background: Dreams of Vengeacne (Trained in Athletics and Gladiator Lore)
Class: Fighter
Initial Ability Scores (2x Free): STR: 18 (22); DEX:10 (12) ; CON:14 (20) ; INT:14 (20) ; WIS:12 (18) ; CHA:10 (12)
Initial Skills: Trained in Athletics, Society, Gladiator Lore, Dragon Lore, Celestial Lore, Acrobatics, Warfare Lore
Initial Feats: Titan Wrestler, Power Attack, Attack of Opportunity, Shield Block,
2nd: Skill Feat: Assurance (Athletics); Class Feat: Wizard Dedication (Trained in Arcana)
3rd: Bravery, General Feat: Ancestral Paragon->Natural Ambition (Sudden Charge); Expert in Athletics
4th: Skill Feat: Quick Jump ; Class Feat: Knockdown (retrain Power Attack into Something...)
5th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; Ancestry Feat: General Training (Fleet) ; Fighter Weapon Mastery (Flails); Expert in Acrobatics; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
6th: Skill Feat: Cat Fall; Class Feat: Basic Wizard Spellcasting (True Strike, Enlarge, others. Buy Ring of Wizardy + Endless Grimoir)
7th: Battlefield Surveyor, General Feat: Toughness ; Master in Athletics ; Weapon Specialization
8th: Skill Feat: Quick Climb; Class Feat: Lunge
9th: Ancestry Feat: Celestial Wings; Combat Flexibility (Adv.Assault), Juggernaut; Master in Acrobatics
10th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; Skill Feat: Kip Up ; Class Feat: Combat Reflex; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
11th: Armor Expertise, Fighter Expertise, General Feat: Adopted Ancestry (Dwarfs); Expert in Arcana
12th: Skill Feat: Powerful Leap; Class Feat: Improved Knockdown
13th: Ancestry Feat: Mountain's Stoutness ; Master in Arcana; Weapon Legend
14th: Skill Feat: Wall Jump; Class Feat: Expert Wizard Spellcasting
15th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, WIS, INT; General Feat: Acumen (Will Saves); Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Combat Flexibility (Lunging Stance); Legendary in Arcana; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
16th: Skill Feat: EMPTY; Class Feat: Arcane Breadth
17th: Ancestry Feat: Eternal Wings; Armor Mastery; Legendary in Athletics
18th: Skill Feat: EMPTY ; Class Feat: Master Wizard Spellcasting
19th: General Feat: EMPTY; Legendary in Acrobatics; Versatile Legend
20th: Ability Boosts: STR, CON, INT, DEX; Skill Feat: EMPTY; Class Feat: Boundless Reprisals; Trained in Skill (INT increase)
Deriven Firelion wrote: Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Martialmasters wrote: That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself. Well, better to risk in air than doing nothing on ground. Depending on those checks DC I may snag Assurance (Acrobatics) feat somewhere. I don't have room for increasing Acrobatics as Athletics, Arcana and Medicine are crucial.
Though in theory I can just have Fly spell prepared for that occasion, but that's precious slot. Haste/Enlarge/Longstride + wings may be better combo anyway and my slots are very limited even once I get ring of wizardy + endless grimoire Not sure what Martialmasters is talking about, but as far as I know you do not need to make a fly check when you are hit.
If you are tripped, you can get knocked out of the air. It's only a DC 15 acrobatics check requiring a reaction to arrest a fall and I usually pick up Cat's Grace to avoid damage on most falls for no action. Get it up to expert or master and you should be ok.
Flying is action intensive though as you have to spend an action every round to remain aloft either moving a bit or hovering. It's usually one action cost per round to fly.
Main thing to remember is using a fly action is a move action for you and the enemy flying. That means they get to AoO you and you get to AoO them.
And some DMs may require a roll to hover, but I'm not sure how many do. I do not require them. I require the action cost to hover or move. I certainly don't require a roll to remain aloft if you are struck. I only do acrobatics checks for flight for hard maneuvers. I don't like lots of rolls increasing failure chances and making combats annoying. But GMs vary in how they view this. I don't think I said if he got hit
But it's normal flying rules to have to make checks if you are in strong winds or otherwise get your movement interrupted.
In my one mention was also just a level 1 gust of wind as an example of how he could easily meet his end.
Its also touched on in the GMG
"The rules for flight say that a creature might need to attempt an Acrobatics check to Maneuver in Flight to pull off tricky maneuvers. You can generally use the same judgment you would for calling for Acrobatics checks when someone’s moving on the ground. Trying to dive through a narrow space, make a sharp turn, or the like might require checks, usually with a simple DC.
Falls can be deadly, and often happen when fly or a similar spell gets dispelled. This is part of the risk of flying! Flying enemies might keep closer to the ground to avoid this danger, or have the feather fall spell to prevent the damage or a jade cat talisman to reduce it."
Edit: on top of this the arrest a fall DC can go higher than 15 depending on the circumstances.
Martialmasters wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Martialmasters wrote: That's fine. Just wanted to make you aware of the risks you are imposing on yourself. Well, better to risk in air than doing nothing on ground. Depending on those checks DC I may snag Assurance (Acrobatics) feat somewhere. I don't have room for increasing Acrobatics as Athletics, Arcana and Medicine are crucial.
Though in theory I can just have Fly spell prepared for that occasion, but that's precious slot. Haste/Enlarge/Longstride + wings may be better combo anyway and my slots are very limited even once I get ring of wizardy + endless grimoire Not sure what Martialmasters is talking about, but as far as I know you do not need to make a fly check when you are hit.
If you are tripped, you can get knocked out of the air. It's only a DC 15 acrobatics check requiring a reaction to arrest a fall and I usually pick up Cat's Grace to avoid damage on most falls for no action. Get it up to expert or master and you should be ok.
Flying is action intensive though as you have to spend an action every round to remain aloft either moving a bit or hovering. It's usually one action cost per round to fly.
Main thing to remember is using a fly action is a move action for you and the enemy flying. That means they get to AoO you and you get to AoO them.
And some DMs may require a roll to hover, but I'm not sure how many do. I do not require them. I require the action cost to hover or move. I certainly don't require a roll to remain aloft if you are struck. I only do acrobatics checks for flight for hard maneuvers. I don't like lots of rolls increasing failure chances and making combats annoying. But GMs vary in how they view this. I don't think I said if he got hit
But it's normal flying rules to have to make checks if you are in strong winds or otherwise get your movement interrupted.
In my one mention was also just a level 1 gust of wind as an example of how he could easily meet his... I must have misread you.
Do you require Expert acrobatics to Hover? Is that a Hard rule a guideline for a DC? The fly action makes it sound like you can choose to hover in place as one action.
Hover would only maybe take a check if they were in high winds I'd imagine. Otherwise basic movement without anything thrown at you is no checks I believe.
Martialmasters wrote: Hover would only maybe take a check if they were in high winds I'd imagine. Otherwise basic movement without anything thrown at you is no checks I believe. I am not worry about that. My GM is not some mean troll that will make sure every time I try to fly there will be high winds. He is cool. I will say even more, if adventure would say "there are high winds here" and I would ask if I had to make checks to fly, he would probably think a little and say "nah, you have high strength super fighter, we go with rule of cool here, to hell with some winds when you knockdown dragons with one hit".
I can say that in full confidence playing with him for many years :) . If anything he tries to accomodate to players so scene is cool, not to think of adding stuff just to work against them.
Besides I updated build with more Acrobatics for Kip Up, as it is, indeed, a stellar feat to have.
That's cool, though imo of you abide by rule of cool over established rules i don't see the point in an optimization thread at all
Guys, quick question about Gill Hook: can you attack with weapon after grappling someone? For example I do Grapple attack with it or Shackles of Law if I get Hellknight dedication, I grapple target, my turn ends. Now someone else provokes AoO: can I attack with Gill Hook even though technically I am grappling someone with it? I didn't find anything in rules saying you can't attack with weapon that is grappling already someone. Of course "realisticaly" you couldn't, but it's a game, not life simulator so I am just interested in RAW.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I don't... Think so? The Grab creature ability says: The creature is grabbed by whichever body part the monster attacked with, and that body part can’t be used to Strike creatures until the grab is ended.
I don't think such a rule exists on the Grapple action or grapple trait. Seems up to your GM though.
Kyle_TheBuilder wrote: Guys, quick question about Gill Hook: can you attack with weapon after grappling someone? For example I do Grapple attack with it or Shackles of Law if I get Hellknight dedication, I grapple target, my turn ends. Now someone else provokes AoO: can I attack with Gill Hook even though technically I am grappling someone with it? I didn't find anything in rules saying you can't attack with weapon that is grappling already someone. Of course "realisticaly" you couldn't, but it's a game, not life simulator so I am just interested in RAW. There is no RAW. If your DM allows it, you can do. If he doesn't, you can't. There is no rules lawyering in PF2. DM is clearly stated to have power and interpret the natural language of the abilities. It's led to a lot of arguments, but also a lot of table variation. Paizo has taken the stance in PF2 to answer very few questions clearly leaving it all up to your table and DM.
As far as how I run it, if you have one hand being used to grapple which is all it requires, you cannot use a two-handed weapon for attacking or anything at all. If the gill hook is a one-handed weapon, I'd be fine with it. If you are using the gill hook for the grapple, then I would not allow it.
That's how I do it to maintain verisimilitude. Your DM can handle it as they wish. As far as finding RAW, there is no decision one way or the other which some rules lawyers by omission argue that means it is allowed.
|
