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Yes that works. You can reach that empty square by just jumping off the ledge, even if it's a bad idea. That line is there to prevent burrowing abductions or incorporeal shenanigans.
Standing near a cliff is dangerous and you should avoid it. The polearm crit spec doesn't get a save like a shove does but it's also on a crit, so going all in on shoves would have a better chance to push you probably.
Grab an edge is a reaction and you also have feather fall (and a rather cheap talisman that lets you get a one time feather fall).
Basically, know that cliffs are scary and if you must end your turn there, keep your reaction.
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There isn't an explicit trait designating the difference between forced movement that is physically forcing a creature into the new position (like Whirling Throw) vs forced movement that tricks/baits/otherwise manipulates the creature into the new position (like Leading Dance). So the "Ask Your GM" that you don't want to hear really IS the answer in any case that seems like it could be either, like polearm crit spec.
When you are the GM, like in this case, "Ask the GM" just translates to "make what you think is an appropriate call".
There is a second school of thought (which I believe is incorrect and which frequently results in some pretty nonsensical outcomes) of searching the forced movement ability for the use of the specific word "push" or "pull". It really doesn't result in any kind of narrative consistency in what forced movement abilities can put a creature into a dangerous place, though.
Falling damage is just not as lethal in PF2 as it first might seem, so, as a fellow GM, I say use falls often to create dynamic, 3 dimensional encounter spaces. By mid levels, falls have to be hundreds of feat to even chance being “instant death” and characters that walk around with their hands full and never mitigate the risk with items, spells or feats are doing the same thing as characters that tank a save or AC…they are leaving themselves a very exploitable weakness.
Yeah, "push" & "pull" seem to have been the original keywords to discern, yet as Hammerjack noted, the throughline got lost somewhere along the way. What I really want to know is if Whirling Throw is supposed to be so game-breaking in dramatic environs (or into the ceiling while I'm asking). Seems enemies would have to have total mastery of their environs to avoid a hasty loss, especially if they have Flurry of Maneuvers. I can imagine the players' consternation should I ever feature 6th level NPC Monks at a mountain monastery. On the other hand, simply shifting positions 30' w/ about 15-ish damage, no MAP, and otherwise safe-ish seems about right for a 6th level feat.
Note that few enemies will have crit specialization effects and also wield a polearm all while adjacent to a cliff...in which case I'd have to assume the designer fully intended to either knock PCs off or knock them closer so they could be Shoved off. Though since they'd be NPCs, it'd be better to give them a straightforward ability for clarity.
The thing about "a GM-controlled mob crits with a polearm when the player is standing next to a cliff ledge" is that the GM still has the option to move the PC in a direction that is not "over the edge." You can justify this by having the antagonist want to capture the PC (for food, ransom, interrogation, whatever) rather than simply dispatch them. Sometimes the GM can and should pull punches.
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Even mountain cliffs tend to have little lips and ledges that jut out and make landing spots that can incrementally make such a hazzard something that isn’t just death. Good map design should feature terrain worth using, but not wildly exceed the ability of the party to survive. I am all for more encounters in terrain where players have a reason to move around.
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Even mountain cliffs tend to have little lips and ledges that jut out and make landing spots that can incrementally make such a hazzard something that isn’t just death. Good map design should feature terrain worth using, but not wildly exceed the ability of the party to survive. I am all for more encounters in terrain where players have a reason to move around.
I only pull punches with new or irregular players, though yeah, one should factor in balance ahead of time re: cliff distances and such (which I'd hope a designer would do.
There was one PFS1 scenario w/ different fall distances for different tiers of play (and maybe sharper rocks too), and another I remember that had such a lip to catch fallers, though one couldn't see it unless at the edge so OMG the terror when PCs got sent over. :-)
Can't even recall it well except for the player responses.
I think it'd be cool to get a secondary battle going on the lower ledge of people tossed over by both sides. "Oh, all you mostly healthy guys I tossed over are down here with me." *gulp*
It is clear that forced movement CAN send someone where they would be immediate detrimental effects, but it is also clear that such situations push it into GM territory for adjudication, if it fits the particular ability. So assuming that is the intent of all abilities is the case seems obviously incorrect.
I get the impression that abilities that don't give the attacking character lots of choices... pushes the enemy 10' back from you... the instigator doesn't' get to make them move to any number of spaces, it becomes a here or don't use the ability. (you might have the choice to only push back 5' maybe) but the destination isn't purely your instigator's choice. Same for a pull.. it moves you 5 feet directly closer to you. The choice is, use the ability... the space is likely determined for you. Again both of these seem likely to fall into the allow it to pull or push them into a dangerous place. The ones where it moves them any direction, the choice of the instigator, there is far more choice on the instigators' part, and unless the ability indicates that it allows forcing them into a dangerous space, I'd probably rule the space is only available if no safe spaces exist.
So I would say, in the case of the polearm critical effect, it might be reasonable to consider the range of available squares they can push someone into, be only ones that don't cause immediate harm. So if there was an unoccupied square behind them or ahead of them that would not be impossible or immediate repercussion, they might be limited to that square. But if there was no safe choice, I wouldn't make the ability have no effect. (which could occur if no other squares were physically viable, such as in a tunnel where people or solid areas surround you, leaving you nowhere you can go. If the only viable place for you to move with forced movement takes you off a ledge, or pushes you into the campfire. (both difficult, and damaging terrain) then as a GM I'd allow it.
Otherwise, I'd be examining the circumstance and determining how much it helped the story feel. Is the party over-matched and it helps even the playing field, I might let the first such attempt at it work... but afterwards (and let the players know this fact at the time) the opponents would be more careful not to not be so easily tossed off.
Part of my thought process would be, would the Players be upset if I used the same ability against them consistently. If the answer were yes, I'd probably tone it down some. Something as simple as if a safe space is available, attempting to force them to a non-safe space might grant them an appropriate saving throw against the ability, if there is any question about it.
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If the PCs were standing on a high bridge and an NPC got a lucky natural 20 with a polearm, I suspect they wouldn't be happy with the effectively instant death that would result (assuming it affects someone who can't Grab an Edge successfully).
Because NPCs usually don’t benefit from Critical Specialization Effects, if a scenario explicitly involves NPCs who DO benefit from CSEs, equips them with pole arms, and sets a combat in a location where there are cliff sides, then the possibility of PCs getting pushed over the cliff is baked into that encounter
If you’re designing the encounter yourself, it’s pretty easy to just avoid using NPCs specced to induce forced movement in encounters with long drops.
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Why build an encounter with precarious terrain and deliberately avoid trying to use it?
Falling damage is half the damage of the fall, mitigated by the ability to grab an edge with usually a fairly low DC, and multiple spells feats and items to make the risk negligible. A creature with just 50 hp has to fall 100 feet just to be knocked out. 100ft cliffs are a bigger problem at higher level for creatures that have no climb speed than as a life threatening hazard. Be careful about making forced movement abilities feel so useless that players would never think to shove or pick a movement ability because they can’t do anything interesting or useful with them.
So abilities that don't allow movement into dangerous spots specifically call this out; and forced movement doesn't prohibited movement unless the target can occupy that space, so basically any forced movement that doesn't specify you can't put the target in danger, can, in fact, put the target in danger.
That said, as other commented, between Grab an Edge, falling having lower damage, and with how forgiving death is in 2e (compared to 1e), shoving a PC down a cliff is something you can totally do.
Since you're level 10, it's also worth noting that a literal bottomless pit is considered a level appropriate encounter, which is only a danger because falling down it without a means to climb/fly/etc or have an ally rescue you is a death sentence. Any fall with a bottom is technically survivable; even more survivable; that falling to 0 from persistent damage (which is basically gonna kill you unless you are healed) or a crit (which starts you at dying 2 vs dying 1). No amount of overkill increases the dying value, so if the pc stabilizes, nothing stops the rest of the team from retrieving them post combat. Heck, if they have even 1 hero point, survival from the fall is garanteed as long as nothing attacks them
No amount of overkill increases the dying value,
Well, there is the Massive Damage rule. And other than being low level and getting crit by a simple trap, falling too far is one of the few ways to actually have to invoke that rule.
But the rest of your points stand pretty well.
I mean, technically if you fell in a bottomless pit you would die of dehydration.
If you had access to create food and create water you could survive until you die of old age or whatever.