Kobolds being evil is only skin deep... it's a bestiary entry, and nothing more. Little lizard-people are not built from evil energies like demons and devils. They are just as likely to have any alignment as anyone else. There are dragons of alignments other than evil, why would every Kobold be Lawful Evil by default? It's just lazy to play them that way.
Paladins only get to use that excuse when you copy'n'paste creatures from the bestiary without modifying them to fit your world. Any living thing not physically built from evil energies that is capable of making decisions for itself can be any alignment you want them to be. And it generally is better to change most alignments simply so Paladins cannot use that lame-@$$ excuse to defend being a murderhobo.
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... One of the PCs is a paladin. ...
One of the things I like about the Paladin class is its Code of Conduct feature. In theory, it encourages you to look beyond the more generalized (and meta-driven) perspectives on the game. Two Paladins from two different faiths could have approached that scenario in wildly different ways.
Dang bro, tell me how you really feel about that joke
Four stars, would criticize again? <Grin>
@ Anguish: PCs enter a dungeon.
That is the core tenet of nearly every player I've had at my tables for over a decade.
Incarceration and redemption are not realistic options to resolve conflicts with evil.
However, this is the reality of folks running characters at my tables. In this respect, RK's joke IS based in my reality.
It's interesting (as is this whole discussion), to me. Take a video game where you're a faceless soldier gun-nut and facing an endless horde of zealots of whatever persuasion, and... the question of what to do is discarded. I'll happily unload clip after clip into screaming, bleeding foes because the story says I should. But in an RPG where I'm trying to imagine my character as a person, I've struggled with that for decades.
But I do recognize I'm not the only one on the planet and that there isn't just one way to play the game. I confess I would've probably asked the paladin player "then what actually differentiates your character from a fighter or a barbarian?"
I also won't pretend the next player campaign for me will be the way this one was. I'm sure we'll be back to mostly kill-first-ask-questions-never next go around. But we're never murder-ALL-the-things.
Hey, so, I'm on lunch and re-reading the above response I sent earlier. I come off sounding all gruff and surly right there and while I didn't intend any offense to anyone, I just want to apologize if I cheesed anyone off here. It's too late to edit that previous post so I just wanted to add this. Thanks all!
Not remotely, for me. This is discussion, which is always good.
... One of the PCs is a paladin. ...One of the things I like about the Paladin class is its Code of Conduct feature. In theory, it encourages you to look beyond the more generalized (and meta-driven) perspectives on the game. Two Paladins from two different faiths could have approached that scenario in wildly different ways.
Agreed. I almost want to participate in the 2e discussion about "why do we have alignment", but a} shrug, whatever, and b} I'd evidently be in the minority.
I think alignment in general is an interesting tool in (some) RPGs to help a player consider "what would my PC do?" Alignment doesn't need to be rigid and explicit. As you say, different characters are different, but I've always found alignment a useful tool to bounce consideration off of.
As for capital E creatures, well, that's again up to individual interpretation. Even if detect evil says "yes, this creature is evil", that's no different from zone of truth being used to get a confession to a crime. What is the specific crime? A lawful character should probably consider that before deciding the punishment. I'd think the same should apply to evil. Yes, a paladin is Good, but... there's a difference between minor evil actions and major ones.
Nuance. It's what's for dinner.
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It just does not make sense to me that every member of a tribe would be the exact same alignment... let alone every member of a race or species. That just does not work in my world-building. I refuse. Lol.
Also, any time a Paladin is involved, everyone at the table, especially the GM, should read said Paladin's code of conduct as it is laid out by their deity... and hold that MF'er to it. Paladins don't get wiggle room, they don't get to put their own personal touch on how they obey those edicts. Read what their god has told them to do, and make sure that is what they are doing. Sorry, bud, but this class is not just a combination of mechanical tools for your character to use... this class comes preloaded with standards you must live up to, or you can't be this class, nor benefit from anything this class has to offer. They don't get to just Detect Evil then Smite... unless those are edicts of their "good" murderhobo god. People that play Paladins without an ounce of extra thought or in-depth roleplaying kind of p!ss me off. Lol.
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One of the PCs is a paladin.As the paladin player and I were discussing his PC's apathy when the monk leapt forward and slew the one who seemingly surrendered, as well as his own PC's bloodthirsty call to pursue the fleeing kobolds and slay them in transit, the player defended his actions as follows:
1. He used his paladin ability to Detect Evil; he knew definitively the kobolds are evil.
This always bugs me. Detect evil would pick up a 6 year old wanting to take his brother's candy. "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." It shouldn't be a license to kill.
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This always bugs me. Detect evil would pick up a 6 year old wanting to take his brother's candy. "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." It shouldn't be a license to kill.
No, it wouldn't. Detect Evil has the same stipulations that Detect Magic does. Until you are 5 HD or more (or an actual cleric with an aura), you aren't registering at all on the detect 'alignment' scale. So many people seem to overlook this mechanic that I am still flabbergasted that I can still be surprised by this.
This is the reason why so much petty and minor evils go around unnoticed by the Paladins of the realm. People are simply too low level in many of the areas in which they exist to register on the radar.
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This always bugs me. Detect evil would pick up a 6 year old wanting to take his brother's candy. "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." It shouldn't be a license to kill.No, it wouldn't. Detect Evil has the same stipulations that Detect Magic does. Until you are 5 HD or more (or an actual cleric with an aura), you aren't registering at all on the detect 'alignment' scale. So many people seem to overlook this mechanic that I am still flabbergasted that I can still be surprised by this.
This is the reason why so much petty and minor evils go around unnoticed by the Paladins of the realm. People are simply too low level in many of the areas in which they exist to register on the radar.
Per detect evil 1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Nothing about auras. You can detect there's an evil thinking 6 year old over there, but not pinpoint which one. round 2+ would still just pick up evil in that area, until the 6 yo started thinking about non-evil. Not that the kid has an evil aura.
Edit, and the example I was replying to had a kobold. so unless the kobolds were all 5+ HD it's still the issue.
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It's probably worth considering that the common definition of "evil" involves something that is profoundly immoral and wicked. I'd like to think GMs would take that into consideration before determining what radiates evil to a Paladin.
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It's probably worth considering that the common definition of "evil" involves something that is profoundly immoral and wicked. I'd like to think GMs would take that into consideration before determining what radiates evil to a Paladin.
This.
Your random tribe of Kobolds hardly qualifies, in my opinion. They are simply trying to survive, just like "civilized" societies. Even most bandits are simply trying to get by, and would not be considered evil... bad, sure, but not evil, overall.
It takes real effort to be real evil.
A lot of your mischieveous or even destructive enemies do not even fit the actual definition. Gremlins like breaking stuff, and Goblin like burning stuff... so what? Sometimes I like to break stuff and light stuff on fire, but I am not evil.
It is lazy roleplaying for the Paladin to Smite everything that detects as evil. It is equally lazy GM'ing to blanket assign entire groups or even races/species a single alignment. Really? Not a single Goblin registers as Neutral instead of NE? GTFOH. That means the GM has not only facilitated, but encouraged, our Paladin's murderous behaviours. It's BS, is what it is.
It's a green light, no holds barred, go-ahead to slaughter every single Kobold in the community... because the GM made them ALL evil. Why? Because a book somewhere says that the example Kobold is evil, so every single Kobold ever must be too. It's just shortsighted to call out the Paladin's actions, when literally no attempts or efforts were put forth to discourage what the Paladin did.
Paladins kill evil things, and you just escorted a Paladin to a whole den of "evil things"... being a Kobold queen, her loving husband, their 17 children, the queen's parents and in-laws, the queen's council commity, the council commity's families, the royal guard, and the families to the royal guard, the queen's diviner (which was also her sister), the royal huntmaster (which was the king's brother), the royal huntsmen and all their families... the GM just allowed the Paladin to kill multiple generations of families, end royal bloodlines, and massacre an entire community... because the Kobold in the bestiary is labeled as evil, and it was too much work to change those two letters in their descriptions for this particular encounter.
Maybe if we were more creative in how we played even basic enemies, surrender would be more of an option. Lol. But if we just go by the book, then no... surrender will never be an option.
There's a book I read recently, "BLACK HEART," that elegantly played with what I took to be your central point here, VM.
The protagonists discover that a cabal of infernalists are covertly kidnapping people for their awful rituals and cannibalistic practices. To tackle them, they enlist the aid of the local lord, his retainers, the wardens, and sell-sword knights in the vicinity, but also call upon the local bandits under a flag of truce. Their ranks include thieves and murderers, but they recognize the existential evil that is plaguing their land and join in to help. When their coalition returns, victorious, they are all given blessings by the priests without distinction, until it is time for the outlaws to go back into the wilds... with the understanding that it's "game on" between them and the law once again.
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This always bugs me. Detect evil would pick up a 6 year old wanting to take his brother's candy. "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." It shouldn't be a license to kill.No, it wouldn't. Detect Evil has the same stipulations that Detect Magic does. Until you are 5 HD or more (or an actual cleric with an aura), you aren't registering at all on the detect 'alignment' scale. So many people seem to overlook this mechanic that I am still flabbergasted that I can still be surprised by this.
This is the reason why so much petty and minor evils go around unnoticed by the Paladins of the realm. People are simply too low level in many of the areas in which they exist to register on the radar.
Per detect evil 1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
Nothing about auras. You can detect there's an evil thinking 6 year old over there, but not pinpoint which one. round 2+ would still just pick up evil in that area, until the 6 yo started thinking about non-evil. Not that the kid has an evil aura.
Edit, and the example I was replying to had a kobold. so unless the kobolds were all 5+ HD it's still the issue.
I don't agree with this take at all. Given the game has objective evil, if you are not evil enough to generate even a faint aura then you are not evil enough to ping a Detect Evil spell.
To rule otherwise ends in the nonsensical situation where you detect evil but do not see any auras
Not that it has much to do with the original topic, but there are 1st-level spells that can make a perfectly Good individual count as evil... how stupid is the Paladin that kills someone who is completely NOT evil, but is currently under the effects of something like Infernal Healing? Infernal Healing lasts one minute, and a trigger-happy Paladin can do A LOT of damage in 10 rounds. It's just a 1st-level spell, and it's on almost a dozen different lists... a scroll is 25gp, a wand with 50 freaking charges of it is 750gp... this is not something that should surprise anyone if they come across it being used by others.
Ask the Paladin if all these people are worthy of their god's wrath for simply trying to regain 10 hit points over a one minute period. To literally everyone that's not a Paladin, this spell is simply a healing spell... but today they have to die where they stand because a Paladin happened to cross their path whilst they were under the effects of a temporary spell. If fate had just held up that Paladin for 30 more seconds... if the Paladin had stayed seated a while longer to finish that last bit of ale, or if only the Paladin had to wait for a wagon to cross the street, but no... the Paladin sees you now, caught you red-handed evil-doer... DIE!
And it's sad.
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Not that it has much to do with the original topic, but there are 1st-level spells that can make a perfectly Good individual count as evil... how stupid is the Paladin that kills someone who is completely NOT evil, but is currently under the effects of something like Infernal Healing? ...
Ask the Paladin if all these people are worthy of their god's wrath for simply trying to regain 10 hit points over a one minute period. To literally everyone that's not a Paladin, this spell is simply a healing spell... but today they have to die where they stand because a Paladin happened to cross their path whilst they were under the effects of a temporary spell. ...
I think this falls squarely on the specific Code of Conduct a given Paladin is following. Remember, these things are relative. To you, it's nothing more than a minor healing spell. To a Paladin, their entry-level understanding of Infernal Healing (before we talk about specific ethos and demands placed on them by their deity) is that it is a categorically evil spell that involves anointing someone with a devil's blood or with water made unholy through deliberate ritual and invocations to evil powers.
Ideally, the Paladin will have the wisdom and patience to investigate the role of the recipient and their relationship with the spellcaster... but the player would be well within their rights (in my humble opinion) to treat said spell--and a person willing to learn it, cast it, and acquire the components necessary for it--as a moral danger.
But it's already there... in the spell component pouch... it's not like they have to go on a quest through h3ll just to obtain devil's blood. Plus, a scroll or wand wouldn't be applying actual devil's blood to anyone or anything. I doubt most Paladin's even understand the spell enough to know which components it requires. What, the Paladin passed a Spellcraft check? Doubt it. Is that something Paladins even do when they detect something as evil?
I think so much of that is GM- and campaign-specific, VM.
RAW, sure, the spell component pouch "is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting," and that works great in a generalized sense. It also requires a complete sense of disbelief, however, and not in terms of "believing in magic" or accepting heroic levels of performance. It's hand-waving away the fact that you have a frankly ridiculous amount of stuff shoved in a pouch, and are somehow able to retrieve a very specific thing in a split second, and so on.
Believe me, I get it. The game doesn't need to struggle with the logistics of diving through a bag to find bat guano stuffed behind prisms, miniature boats, shards of glass, and so on. I know I'm only speaking for my table, but I nonetheless absolutely struggle with the concept of drops of a devil's blood or unholy water being reduced to just things that are packaged at any place capable of selling spell components. At that point, we've gone beyond easing logistics and demeaning the gravity of the material in question.
Beyond that, yes, Spellcraft is a class skill for the Paladin. I know I'm an absolute dinosaur in this, but for those of us still slinging dice for ability scores, dumping Intelligence isn't a given... and I see Spellcraft as a great investment for skill points for the same reasons as Sense Motive.
Meh, Curse Water be but a 1st-level spell... and powdered silver is surely in your basic spell component pouch... it's not like unholy water is necessarily difficult to find. Probably way easier than devil's blood, at least.
Regardless, I very seriously doubt that most of the people that have learned the spell are evil enough to warrant the wrath of a Paladin's god. It's a healing spell, simple as that.
Meh, Curse Water be but a 1st-level spell... and powdered silver is surely in your basic spell component pouch... it's not like unholy water is necessarily difficult to find. Probably way easier than devil's blood, at least.
Regardless, I very seriously doubt that most of the people that have learned the spell are evil enough to warrant the wrath of a Paladin's god. It's a healing spell, simple as that.
It's by definition an evil spell that, assuming you don't traffic with devils (or kill them for material components), requires a spell that is itself categorically evil just to create its material component. In that sense, Infernal Healing is evil fueled by an act of deliberate evil.
We could certainly have a discussion about the extent to which a non-spellcaster with ranks in Use Magic Device would be aware of what a non-descript Wand of Infernal Healing does before they activate it blindly, or whether an evil spell gives the recipient an indicator of what they're getting. It's not like any spellcaster accidentally learns Infernal Healing, though, or is ignorant about what its components entail. How a Paladin reacts to this may very well vary depending on the deity they worship, but I would absolutely expect them to seek to put a stop to such magic.
You're probably right. Either way, I am no longer willing to derail this thread with Paladin hypotheticals.
As far as the original topic goes, has anyone ever successfully used Call Truce, Concilator, or Entreating Critical to end an encounter without violence? Has anyone even seen or heard of this being done in a real game? Have you ever even seen someone take any of those feats, much less actually use them?
You're probably right. Either way, I am no longer willing to derail this thread with Paladin hypotheticals.
As far as the original topic goes, has anyone ever successfully used Call Truce, Concilator, or Entreating Critical to end an encounter without violence? Has anyone even seen or heard of this being done in a real game? Have you ever even seen someone take any of those feats, much less actually use them?
Well now I'm intrigued. If you're at a table that allows leadership, this might be a viable option for a cohort. A caster-centric bard could also get away with it, as they're suddenly less starved for combat feats. I just might try this out at some point....
You would probably want someone with access to Channel Energy, so they could use Authorative Vestments... maybe a Human with the Silver Tongued alternative racial feature, so they can change an attitude by 3 steps with Diplomacy.
I'm more of a Change of Heart or Cry of Mercy guy, myself. There's something positively Arthurian about having someone at your mercy and elevating them to righteousness*.
But if we're talking about NO violence, a combo I like involves taking the (all-around excellent) Unsactioned Knowledge feat to get Peacemaker's Parley and ruin another opportunity to gain XP by killing things.
* Or, if you have the Leadership feat, righteous servility.
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You're probably right. Either way, I am no longer willing to derail this thread with Paladin hypotheticals.
As far as the original topic goes, has anyone ever successfully used Call Truce, Concilator, or Entreating Critical to end an encounter without violence? Has anyone even seen or heard of this being done in a real game? Have you ever even seen someone take any of those feats, much less actually use them?
The problem I have with them mechanically is the feat tax for them all except Conciliator. I'd much prefer Call Truce just be a function of diplomacy, with the high DC.
Thing is, even with this feat you can't be the Daniel Jackson type who runs in front of his side brandishing their guns and say 'whoa whoa whoa!'
That said, I might take Conciliator on my not a bard for Emerald Spire. Since it *can* be used to Daniel Jackson the encounter unlike call for truce.
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I hadn't known about Change of Heart, or Cry for Mercy. Neat.
I like Change of Heart more, since it's not limited to 1/day. And I think Change of Heart would go well with Entreating Critical. Sarenrae's divine fighting style, maybe? Hmm...
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Oh, and side note.
Thank you for the feats I didn't know about. in my worldbuilding of Davric, The Imperial pantheon has a pair of chaotic gods representing innocence and purity and courtly love and chaste love. Now I can have orders of knights that follow them and have the feats to go all "Wonder Woman" on the bad guys.
righteousness/redeeming/changing alignment/etc that's not what Change of Heart feat does.
I know. I’m just expounding on the possibilities of a very high Diplomacy check against someone now at your mercy.
I want to use this AGAINST the party...