I am currently looking into writing a character sheet for a Divine Paragon of Erastil going into the Deadeye Devotee Arcane Archer Prestige Archetype.
I am looking for some clarity as to have the 'Devoted Domain' works with multiclassing
A divine paragon is intensely devoted to a single deity, and her alignment must be identical to her deity’s alignment. She gains Deific Obedience as a bonus feat, even if she doesn’t meet the feat’s prerequisites. She gains access to her boons at an accelerated rate (see below) rather than the standard HD-based rate granted by Deific Obedience (and as such cannot benefit from the accelerated rate granted by the Deific Obedience feat).
When the divine paragon selects her domains, she must designate one of the two domains she gains as her devoted domain. She gains all of this domain’s granted powers and domain spells normally. For her other domain, she gains only its domain spells—she does not gain any of the granted powers of that domain. Instead, she must choose from the evangelist, exalted, or sentinel boons granted by her deity. At 5th level, she gains access to the first boon granted by her deity.
At 11th level, she gains access to the second boon. At 14th level, she gains access to the third boon.
In order to retain access to her domain spells, the domain powers of her devoted domain, and the boons granted by Deific Obedience, the divine paragon must perform her obedience daily. If she fails to do so, she loses access to these abilities until she next performs her obedience (but she can still cast spells, channel energy, and perform other abilities granted by her cleric levels).
What I am interested in hearing is your thoughts on Deific Obedience.
- Divine Paragon gets to choose from Evangelist/Exalted/Sentinel Boons
- Divine Paragon gets these at levels 5/11/14
- Example: Divine Paragon multiclasses into Deadeye Devottee between levels 5 & 11
- The character then gets the 2nd and 3rd benefit at HD16 and HD20 instead
- Would these two remaining boons be exalted even if the character chose Evangelist at creation?
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How do you fulfill the requirements of an arcane archer? It needs the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.
Arcane archer increases your spellcasting ability for an arcane class, so your cleric abilities don't grow.
AFAIK you get the boons only from one Obedience "path", what your character select when he takes the Deific Obedience bonus feat"fixes" what boons the character gets, but, as he doesn't increase his cleric levels after switching to an arcane class and then to Arcane archer prestige class, the rate at which he gets the boons is the normal one. Only the cleric levels give him an accelerated rate.
How do you fulfill the requirements of an arcane archer? It needs the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.
Because it is the Deadeye Devotee Archetype (which I linked to), that is a Divine Archer variant
AFAIK you get the boons only from one Obedience "path", what your character select when he takes the Deific Obedience bonus feat"fixes" what boons the character gets
This is how I interpret the rules but I cannot find much to confirm either way
ok lets try and get things in order.
(btw it helps if all the info you link is from the same site as the two have different way to handle some rules and names. so here is the archive of nethys's page on Divine Paragon. which might be the same anyway but..)
so for a start lets see the normal progression of some1 taking an Obedience feat (there are multiple feats that work close to the same way all named with 'Obedience') the earliest to take them unless granted via class is 3rd level as they all need 3 ranks in some skill and it grant the starting advantage (but not 'boon') when taken. then at character levels 12, 16 and 20 you gain boons #1,2 and 3.
as for a character who start as a cleric with the archtype of divine paragon and want to switch for Deadeye Devotee as soon as possible. since it has a requirement of +6 bab a cleric won't be able to fulfill that until level 8. so a full course would be 8 levels of divine paragon, then at character level 9 he goes into Deadeye Devotee for up to 10 levels (or how many he takes) then assuming 10 levels of the prestige class at character level 19 and 20 he goes back to divine paragon.
as the divine paragon get his boons at an accelerated rate of cleric level 5,11 and 14. this character would get the starting ability when he gets the Obedience (i think it's at 1st level) then at level 5 as a cleric he would get the 1st boon, since he would never have more then 10 cleric levels (unless he takes less levels of the Deadeye Devotee) he would then follow the normal progression of the feat so at character level 16 he would get the 2nd boon (cleric 8\Deadeye Devotee 8) and at character level 20 he would get the 3rd boon (cleric 10\Deadeye Devotee10).
as Diego stated since the path's choosing is only listed before he gets any of the boons, it seems he must pick one path and take only boons from that path.
BUT!
i would just add that the feat Diverse Obedience would allow you to pick other path's boons for 2nd and 3rd boons (since you get them for the character's hd and not the archtype) and 2 levels earlier!. So at character level 14 for 2nd boon (8 cleric\6 Deadeye Devotee) and 18 for 3rd boon (8 cleric\10 Deadeye Devotee). That along with the archtype's own ability to pick the path at the start would let you get any boon of the 3 paths you like for each. ('Once you make the selection, it is permanent, but you can choose from a different category each time you gain a new boon as you increase your Hit Dice.').
I hope this helps.
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You can't find exact text answering your question. The closest is the third paragraph of the Deific Obedience feat.
Certain prestige classes (see page 198) gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class.
At the time the feat was published, the only ways to have the boons was the feat and the prestige classes, so the solution was complete for all cases. If you go fighter 5/sentinel 3/fighter 12, you get only sentinel boons. It doesn't matter that you only got one boon directly from sentinel class levels. Reasonable extension would be "if your type of boon (exalted, sentinel, or evangelist) is fixed by a class choice, that's the type of all your boons."
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How do you fulfill the requirements of an arcane archer? It needs the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.
Because it is the Deadeye Devotee Archetype (which I linked to), that is a Divine Archer variant
True, but the part that matter is in the Blog, not in the linked archetype:
Prestige Archetypes
The following archetypes are available for prestige classes. These archetypes replace specific abilities of the prestige class much in the same way that archetypes do for standard classes. Each prestige archetype has unique requirements that replace the prestige class's standard requirements. You must meet these requirements before you can take the first level of the prestige class with the associated prestige archetype.
Should have read the whole blog, not only the archetype.
Can you point out where that text alter:
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.Without a text saying that it alters that requirement, it doesn't alter it. It seems to imply that it alters it, but it doesn't say that.
Requirements section of Deadeye Devotee:
Spells: Must be able to cast 1st-level divine spells.|
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Can you point out where that text alter:
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.Without a text saying that it alters that requirement, it doesn't alter it. It seems to imply that it alters it, but it doesn't say that.
Requirements section of Deadeye Devotee:
Spells: Must be able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
After writing that I read the blog. The archetype alone would only add to the requirement, you need the general rule in the blog, as that says that the new requirements replace the ones you had before.
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as Diego stated since the path's choosing is only listed before he gets any of the boons, it seems he must pick one path and take only boons from that path.
BUT!
i would just add that the feat Diverse Obedience would allow you to pick other path's boons for 2nd and 3rd boons (since you get them for the character's hd and not the archtype) and 2 levels earlier!. So at character level 14 for 2nd boon (8 cleric\6 Deadeye Devotee) and 18 for 3rd boon (8 cleric\10 Deadeye Devotee). That along with the archtype's own ability to pick the path at the start would let you get any boon of the 3 paths you like for each. ('Once you make the selection, it is permanent, but you can choose from a different category each time you gain a new boon as you increase your Hit Dice.').
She gains access to her boons at an accelerated rate (see below) rather than the standard HD-based rate granted by Deific Obedience (and as such cannot benefit from the accelerated rate granted by the Diverse Obedience feat).
"Cannot benefit", doesn't seem to be limited to the cleric levels.
You are treated as though you had 2 more Hit Dice than you actually do for the purposes of determining what divine boons you gain as a result of performing your deity’s obedience. Diverse Obedience doesn’t allow access to divine boons granted through prestige classes early, as those boons are tied to prestige class levels gained, not overall Hit Dice. If you take levels in a prestige class or archetype that offers accelerated access to a boon, this benefit may be superfluous.
"May be superfluous" is way less strongly worded.
I think the RAI is that it is not possible to benefit from the accelerated rate, RAW is muddled.As the Obedience is gained from a feat, the last part applies for sure.
After writing that I read the blog. The archetype alone would only add to the requirement, you need the general rule in the blog, as that says that the new requirements replace the ones you had before.Can you point out where that text alter:
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.Without a text saying that it alters that requirement, it doesn't alter it. It seems to imply that it alters it, but it doesn't say that.
Requirements section of Deadeye Devotee:
Spells: Must be able to cast 1st-level divine spells.
It is on the archetype too:
Requirements: To qualify to become a Deadeye devotee, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Lawful good, lawful neutral, or neutral good.
Deity: Must worship Erastil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: , Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow).
Spells: Must be able to cast 1st-level divine spells.This alters requirements.
Before you say “alter doesn’t mean replace”, I am aware of that. The fact remains though, it lists the entire prerequisites block and makes alterations throughout it. Some things are added, some removed, some replaced, and some unchanged. That is “altered”.
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Spells: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.
Note the alterations:
Add: alignment restriction & worshiper of ErastilRemove: point-blank shot, Weapon Focus (shortbow)
Change: spellcasting from arcane to divine.
Would it have been better if they said “replace” in the archetype? Sure, but in this case the word “alter” has the same exact result.
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Would it have been better if they said “replace” in the archetype? Sure, but in this case the word “alter” has the same exact result.
Alter hasn't the same result at all. Alter require the writer to specify what is altered.
Replace too, unless it is a blank check like: "replace the prestige class's standard requirements."
Would it have been better if they said “replace” in the archetype? Sure, but in this case the word “alter” has the same exact result.Alter hasn't the same result at all. Alter require the writer to specify what is altered.
Replace too, unless it is a blank check like: "replace the prestige class's standard requirements."
They do specify what is altered. Its not rocket science. A feat requirement was removed, another was limited, the spell requirement was changed to divine, and an alignment and deity requirement was added. It is very clearly written in the requirements block.
I am genuinely shocked that this is a debate. It is completely clear that you alter all of the requirements
A feat requirement was removed
Sort of. Precise Shot has a prerequisite of Point Blank Shot so you still need it. Though it may mean you can enter by avoiding it.
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I am genuinely shocked that this is a debate. It is completely clear that you alter all of the requirements
A feat requirement was removedSort of. Precise Shot has a prerequisite of Point Blank Shot so you still need it. Though it may mean you can enter by avoiding it.
Rangers can get precise shot as a bonus feat without point blank.
I guess technically they should have said replaces requirements instead of alters, but IMHO the intent (RAI) is blatantly obvious.
i don't see the problem, maybe it's my bad english, but they use alter when the section changed still has the same base and replace when they remove it completely and change it to something else.
for example if a fighter archtype take out 'weapon training' and give 'sheep herding', +1 for handle animal(sheep) with increase bonus at later levels, it is replaced. if it say it is still weapon training but you now must use a bowtie as the weapon it is altering.
If you look at what they wrote it say:
"This alters requirements."
not
"This alters THE requirements."
now since what is getting changed is the "requirement" section as long as it is still "requirements" were talking about, anything that change what they are is merely altering it, for example it must still abide all the rules governing prestige class requirements.
to replace it they need to remove the mechanic of 'requirements' completely and use something else.
like say:
The GM GF, an arcane archer archtype.
"welcome bonus": to get into this archtype there is no requirement instead get a free bow when you apply.
this REPLACE "requirements" in arcane archer.
There is also precedence for archetypes to not use wording like “instead of X, the ___ gets Y” for altered abilities. Example, Feyform Shifter, several of its abilities are full description replacements, but they all say “alter” or “modify” instead of “replace” and none of them are worded in a way that says to “add this to or remove that from the original ability”. Instead, they repeat the original abilities effect and wording but with the alterations already in place.
Also, if you look at how Deadeye Devotee was written, they used this exact same method of altering rules text directly. The Spells per Day ability, is word for word taken directly from Arcane Archer with all references to Arcane replaced with Divine.
The fact they did that with the ability text alone should tell you, for this archetype “alter” means “replace text of specified ability with the above”