As I am now playing a kobold rogue snarecrafter, I have been doing some deep diving into the snare rules once again.
A few years back, I had a handful of people tell me that once you set a snare, it is expended. You cannot move it, recover it, or sell it.
With respect to those people, I disagree with that interpretation and--now that I am armed with renewed knowledge on the subject--intend to make an open case for my interpretation. I invite you to offer your own thoughts on the matter, be they for or against my interpretation. I stand ready to defend my stance to the best of my ability.
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Some have cited to me the last sentence in the first paragraph of the snare rules as the sole reason for their interpretation that snares cannot be moved, recovered, or sold. Said sentence is shown below for your convenience.
Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form.
The rules clearly do state that you cannot move a completed snare that you find. But what is a completed snare? I assert that this is one that has been set up as an active hazard in the field*. If you disagree, then I ask you to tell me what you consider a completed snare to be.
However, there is nothing in the rules stopping you from disabling the snare with Disable a Device. Once you have disabled your snare, I'd argue that it can no longer be considered completed or set up, and thus can then be moved or sold at your leisure. If that wasn't the case, then there wouldn't be much reason for there being rules to disable your snare.
Even if you disagree with the notion that a disabled snare is not a complete snare, the rule in question only applies to FOUND snares. You can't find your own snares. You know where they are. You set them up after all. I believe (and assert) that rule to be in regards to enemy/unknown snares, and thus not applicable to your own snares in any event.
In the past, people have asked me Such people have at times argued that if I am right, such abilities have no reason to exist.
I disagree with that notion as well. That spell magically moves an already set up snare from point A to point B with only two actions. Contrast that to the two actions to use Disable a Device on the snare, one or more actions to pick up the snare (or snare components), one or more actions to carry it from point A to point B, and a full minute to set up the snare in the new location. Clearly, abilities like snare hopping still have plenty of value under my interpretation. Nothing has been invalidated.
Finally, the idea that snares are so limited that you can never again do anything meaningful with them fails the "Too Bad to Be True" test.
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Due to the odd and inconsistent language, some people interpret snares as being un-purchasable. I've been told that, rather than purchasing a ready-to-go snare (like a bear trap), you're actually purchasing the components and raw materials for the snare (such as wire, blades, and pressure plates), which you would then Craft in the field.
I don't necessarily believe that interpretation to be incorrect. However, some issues do arise from it due to the odd and inconsistent wording of the rules. For example, could someone in the field simply cross off x gold and craft a snare on the spot, kind of like whipping out a crowbar with Prescient Planner? (See example 1 below.) Or would they have to buy the supplies first for x gold, then once in the field set up their snare? If the latter, can you buy y gold of general componentry, then build whatever snares you had the formulas to in the field until you hit that limit? (See example 2 below.) Or would you have to track the raw materials for each type of snare separately? (See example 3 below.) It seems a bit too convoluted a grey area to me to have really been intended that way by the developers.
Example 2: I have the above and am in the middle of a forest far from civilization. I cannot set up any snares. However, my companion spent 30gp on "generic" snare supplies before leaving the last settlement. Using my snare kit, he sets up five alarm snares and five spike snares around the party's camp.
Example 3: I have the above and am in the middle of a forest far from civilization. I cannot set up any snares. However, my companion spent 15gp on alarm snare supplies, 6gp on spike snare supplies, and 9gp on marking snare supplies before leaving the last settlement. Using his own snare kit, he sets up five alarm snares, two spike snares, and three marking snares around the party's camp.
Rather, I believe this to merely be the result of poor wording from half-baked or rushed rules. Clearly, the developers wanted some aspects of the Craft activity to apply when setting up snares in the field, but it's not really made clear which aspects of Craft are applied and which aren't. Where does one draw the line?
Regardless of your interpretation regarding what you're purchasing, it's probably easiest to just treat them as physical items when tracking them in your inventory. That is, write down the snares on your sheet when you buy them, then mark them off again once they are expended by an enemy triggering them.
I look forward to reading your thoughts whatever they may be.
The rules say found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form. This is really about having to have the skill in snares to place snares. Not everyone can set them up - you must be skilled.
A disabled snare is not in its complete form. You can automatically disable your own snares.
I'd allow it too. It seems to be within the intent of the rules.
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OP's description is to some extent how I run snares in my home games because treating them more like traditional items reduces the hassle and is easier to manage.
That said-
Even if you disagree with the notion that a disabled snare is not a complete snare, the rule in question only applies to FOUND snares. You can't find your own snares. You know where they are. You set them up after all. I believe (and assert) that rule to be in regards to enemy/unknown snares, and thus not applicable to your own snares in any event.
You're focused too much on the phrase 'found snares' when just a little bit further down the same page, we're told in rather uncertain language that snares are
A) crafted into a specific 5-foot squareB) cannot be moved once crafted without destroying the snare.
"Once constructed, it can't be moved" isn't exactly an ambiguous statement, and a destroyed item is functionally useless. I like your interpretation, but I don't see how we get around that line.
There is no described mechanic for creating snares otherwise (until you get to specific exceptions like the appropriate ranger/archetype/kobold feats that have their own unique rules), so the differentiation you're asking us to assume for 'ease of discussion' may not actually exist at all.
"Once constructed, it can't be moved" isn't exactly an ambiguous statement, and a destroyed item is functionally useless. I like your interpretation, but I don't see how we get around that line.
You deconstruct it first with Disable a Device.
If you try to move an active, set up snare without first doing so, you simply destroy it, or trigger it (which expends it), as described in the rules. That's what that particular rule is saying to me.
The statement can certainly and sensibly lead to your interpretation, but I don't believe that it excludes my interpretation quite as readily as you seem to think.
As you hinted, any other interpretation just creates entirely too much hassle. I really don't believe the developers would willfully create something that is Too Bad To Be True, nor do I think them unintelligent or unskilled enough to have done so accidentally.
That kind of makes it pretty easy. If you have two interpretations, one that is simple, logical, and streamlines everything; and one that creates a lot of corner cases, gray areas, and holes in the rules; I'm thinking the former one more likely to be the correct and intended one.
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They're not reusable.
That's the whole point of the contrived rules around them. Paizo wanted to add traps to the arsenal of Rangers and rigged a system akin to the Alchemist so Rangers can be iconic hunters/ambush specialists. Traps, if exploited, would lead to shenanigans if not reigned in as limited resources, much like a mechanical variant of a spell. (Yes, they're vancian in nature from what I can tell.) Heck, you can't even buy a snare. It's all DIY so they're tied to the PC's power budget.
Deconstructing a snare destroys it. There's no "uninstalled" version of a constructed snare. There's either the raw materials (as per the price list), the "ready-to-go limited use" snares from feats, or completed snares (which are installed in a specific space). Disabling something doesn't convert it back into raw materials, nor does it restore one's prefab snare. It's gone. Is that realistic? Not really. Yet, nor is carrying literally oodles of blades for one's high level snares and rigging them in two seconds.
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Due to the odd and inconsistent language, some people interpret snares as being un-purchasable. I've been told that, rather than purchasing a ready-to-go snare (like a bear trap), you're actually purchasing the components and raw materials for the snare (such as wire, blades, and pressure plates), which you would then Craft in the field.
Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266). Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry. Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form. Snares have the snare trait.
It is pretty clear that you don't purchase ready to go snares. You purchase all of the things you would need for that snare, and a snare crafting kit, then use those things to craft the snare. What does this stuff weigh? No idea. But we do know what it costs, the price of the snare.
I have a feeling that snares being automatically "destroyed" when being tripped or disabled is to stop players from obsessing over carrying around bits of trash scrounged up from triggered snares to resell or recraft into new snares. In other words, it is purely a balance convenience.
I mean, we all know that a Biting Snare is just a beartrap right? And beartraps tend to be pretty reusable. But in PF2 they are not. Saying otherwise is a pretty thin stretch imo.
No one is arguing that. you can reuse a snare that has been triggered by an enemy, beowulf99.
They're not reusable.
That's the whole point of the contrived rules around them. Paizo wanted to...
Thank you for stating your beliefs so clearly, and for sharing your reasoning on why you think it to be so.
However, you haven't made a rebuttal to any of my specific points above. Was it your intention to not actually interface in debate?
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No one is arguing that. you can reuse a snare that has been triggered by an enemy, beowulf99.
Triggering Snares disagrees with you pretty hard RD.
Unless stated otherwise in a snare’s description, when a Small or larger creature enters a snare’s square, the snare’s effect occurs and then the snare is destroyed.
You cannot reuse any snare unless it specifically states that you can.
Edit: Oops, reread what Ravingdork posted and realized the period was not intentional. I had read his comment as if he was saying that you could reuse such a snare. My bad.
To actually reply to RD, I will say that even if you disable one of your own snares and the GM graciously rules that this counts as a Critical Success on your disable device check, meaning you can re-enable the snare, you would not be able to move the snare without destroying it, making whatever you were trying to get out of it worthless due to the following line of Crafting Snares.
Once constructed, it can’t be moved without destroying (and often triggering) the snare.
That is as cut and dry as you can get.
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No one is arguing that. you can reuse a snare that has been triggered by an enemy, beowulf99.
They're not reusable.
That's the whole point of the contrived rules around them. Paizo wanted to...Thank you for stating your beliefs so clearly, and for sharing your reasoning on why you think it to be so.
However, you haven't made a rebuttal to any of my specific points above. Was it your intention to not actually interface in debate?
One, you hadn't asked for a debate, nor is this a debate forum. You'd explicitly asked for our thoughts on the matter whether or not they agreed with yours. I provided my thoughts.
Two, clearly stating one's beliefs makes up a notable portion of most if not all formal debates I've seen (which is many dozens, over a hundred if informal included).Three, I believe my reasoning undermines your basic premise of Snares as normal gear. Ex. You emphasize completed snares so as to contrast them, yet with what? There's no such thing as a "snare you can carry around"; one cannot sell them, much like one cannot buy them (though you could buy the services of somebody to set them up for you at who knows what cost on top of the raw materials listed.)
As for specifics:
-In the rules, a "completed snare" is being contrasted with it being either in its state as raw materials or in a creature's daily allotment where it's also still yet to be Crafted. There's no "Crafted, yet not deployed" state available for Snares.
-The reason one can disable one's own snares seems obvious; it's in a bad place, likely because the situation's changed.
-Your cheesiness around the word "found" shows the mental gymnastics required for your interpretation.
-Raving Dork: "Finally, the idea that snares are so limited that you can never again do anything meaningful with them fails the "Too Bad to Be True" test."
Does it? Please substantiate this claim.
I'm not seeing how not reusing an item meant for limited use is a bad thing (that is if looking at the rules rather than carrying over expectations from reality where one would expect snares are not of limited use). That puts Snares in the same category as Scrolls/Talismans (expended after one use) and/or daily abilities like Alchemist's alchemy (depending on one's snare source).
Do Snares fail too bad when compared to similar items like that?
(Dunno myself, I dislike Talismans anyway.)
-Correct, you cannot buy a bear trap, likely because they were a source of extreme shenanigans in PF1. You cannot even build a movable real-world bear trap in PF2, which is unfortunate/awkward, yet done for balance it seems.
-Raw materials rules are handled differently at different tables. Some do run it as if you can cross off gold, cross off from one's pool of raw materials, or cross off from list of raw materials bought explicitly for specific Snares (or other crafted items). I prefer that specific materials have been purchased for specific items, but yeah, some tables play loose to avoid shades of accounting. None of these takes seem to impact the argument of whether Snares are reusable.
I think Example 3 is the closest, except all creatures with Snare Crafting should be able to use those purchased materials. What you couldn't do is use their "prepared Snares" from a feat.
-And finally, the crux of the matter:
Raving Dork: "For ease of this rules discussion, let's differentiate between crafting a snare during downtime, and setting up a snare in the field."
How? A snare crafted during downtime has been set in the field (or doorway, etc.). Snares only exist in their spaces. There is no way to transport a Snare post-Crafting. Heck, even Snare Hopping teleports them rather than simply flies/scoots them over. Before being set, Snares are either raw materials or "prepared Snares" (which still need Crafting to exist).
If somebody purchased raw materials for a Snare then disabled it, I could see allowing them to recover some of the value. But that's not in the rules, nor PFS, and I wouldn't allow it from their free Snares obviously (and unlikely at all depending on the flavor of the campaign).
I'd say Downtime re: Snares would be more along the lines of Earn Income (which can then buy materials) than getting a rebate, as one cannot buy/sell Snares so there's no price to discount.
ETA: As noted on the similar thread re: placement, the rules explicitly let one Craft a Snare at a discount. Though note that said Crafting still places the Snare in a specific spot, so not so useful for deployment while adventuring.
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If you have two interpretations, one that is simple, logical, and streamlines everything; and one that creates a lot of corner cases, gray areas, and holes in the rules; I'm thinking the former one more likely to be the correct and intended one.
That's not really an accurate assessment. There isn't a lot of ambiguity here, nor does the RAW of snares leave many corner cases or gray areas (if anything, the complete lack of mechanics for moving or replanting finished snares means there's much more gray area in your version). It's all rather straight forward, just a little cumbersome and a little niche.
But Paizo making mechanics that err on the side of being slightly more cumbersome than they strictly need to be is fairly consistent with PF2's design principles in general.
That puts Snares in the same category as Scrolls/Talisman
Sort of disagree. Snares can notably fail to activate yet still get expended, which isn't true for Talismans or Scrolls. There is an extra level of consideration there that can be frustrating.
Aplogies to Castilliano. You are quite right that I did not ask for a debate in the OP. Thank you for you input.
Oops, reread what Ravingdork posted and realized the period was not intentional. I had read his comment as if he was saying that you could reuse such a snare. My bad.
Indeed. I have no idea how that period slipped in there.
That puts Snares in the same category as Scrolls/TalismanSort of disagree. Snares can notably fail to activate yet still get expended, which isn't true for Talismans or Scrolls. There is an extra level of consideration there that can be frustrating.
Frustrating certainly! It would make snares one of the weakest options in the game second maybe only to Craft.
Unlike scrolls and talismans which can be used more directly, snares only work if...
1. You have the time to set them up in advance.
2. A creature Strides through the snare's trigger space
3. Said creature is at least Small.
4. Said creature is not burrowing, flying, or swimming.
5. Said creature is not incorporeal or otherwise insubstantial.
6. Said creature is not otherwise highly resistant or immune to that particular snare.
7. The snare does not impose other limitations (such as a tripping snare requiring multiple such snares to trip larger creatures).
If you don't check every single box (and I'm sure I missed a few other boxes), then the snare is completely wasted.
I like to think that the developers don't play such gotcha games and actually intend for players to use the abilities that they write.
That's not really an accurate assessment. There isn't a lot of ambiguity here, nor does the RAW of snares leave many corner cases or gray areas...
Perhaps you could then help to answer some of the following non-existent grey areas with your unambiguous interpretation of the rules:
1) At what range can you set up a snare? In your own space only? An adjacent space? Ten feet away?2) When spending downtime to Craft and get a discount on the snare, what do you end up with? Must you be in the vicinity of the final destination in the field the entire time (possibly weeks)?
3) What happens when you get a Critical Success to Disable a Device on a snare?
4) Can incorporeal creatures trigger snares?
5) Can you Craft snares in batches, and if so must they all be in the field in the same square or in adjoining squares?
6) Do you need to make a Craft check to set up a snare in the field, and if so, what happens if you Critically Fail?
7) Can you set up multiple snares in the same space?
There are plenty more I could add, but I think I made my point about there being plenty of unknowns (many of which are easily answered if you assume snares are ready-to-go objects and/or kits and just need to be set up in the field.
As an aside, does anyone actually run snares as you interpret, and if so, do your/their players ever actually use them under that interpretation?
They're not reusable.
That's the whole point of the contrived rules around them. Paizo wanted to add traps to the arsenal of Rangers and rigged a system akin to the Alchemist so Rangers can be iconic hunters/ambush specialists. Traps, if exploited, would lead to shenanigans if not reigned in as limited resources, much like a mechanical variant of a spell. (Yes, they're vancian in nature from what I can tell.) Heck, you can't even buy a snare. It's all DIY so they're tied to the PC's power budget.
I'm approaching this from a game balance perspective, and I think this is the most compelling argument against allowing snares to be deconstructed and reused.
Snares are effectively consumables. Once they are used, they are used up. But what counts as 'used'?
For bombs, if you throw a bomb, it is destroyed in the process. It either hits or misses or critical variations of the two - and it has its appropriate effects as a result. But it is destroyed in either case.
A spell, when cast, also consumes its spell slot in the process. Or its scroll that it is written on. Or the usage of the wand that it is coming from. Or the staff charge points are expended. Or... you get the point.
But in all of those cases, the character committed to the usage. Rolls were made and outcomes decided, but the using character makes all the decisions about it. Most notably, picking a target.
When setting up a snare, no rolls are made. No targets are picked either. So the character hasn't really had all of the decision making power in the effectiveness of the snare. It still requires action and choices from the opponent too.
What I see that more similar to is Ready. If I have a bomb and I ready an action to throw it with a trigger of 'as soon as someone walks through that doorway'... No rolls have been made. No targets have been chosen. And if no one walks through that doorway, I can decide to simply put my bomb back in my pocket unconsumed.
So I don't see a balance problem with treating snares similarly. Setting them up is like Readying a bomb. If no enemy triggers it, then you can collect it again and put it back in your pocket unconsumed.
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Raving Dork: Unlike scrolls and talismans which can be used more directly, snares only work if...
1. You have the time to set them up in advance.
2. A creature Strides through the snare's trigger space
3. Said creature is at least Small.
4. Said creature is not burrowing, flying, or swimming.
5. Said creature is not incorporeal or otherwise insubstantial.
6. Said creature is not otherwise highly resistant or immune to that particular snare.
7. The snare does not impose other limitations (such as a tripping snare requiring multiple such snares to trip larger creatures).
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That list's going off on tangents about how useful Snares are at all, not on whether it's "too bad to be true" that Snares have only one use.
I don't think any of them address "Snares should be reusable because X?", which I think would require comparing their mechanical costs (gold, actions, PC investment) to their risk/rewards.
And some of them, like the creature needing to be Small, rarely arise unless you're in a Fey campaign or if you make a party of Sprites and exploit the heck out of Snares by laying traps only enemies trigger! (Even one Sprite in the party could get some mileage out of this.)
I'd think that you of all people, RD, could make a similar list of drawbacks for scrolls & talismans. And despite your use of "unlike scrolls and talismans" some of them would be similar like needing to target the correct kinds of creatures or being in the right sort of situation.
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That said it seem your issues boil down to two major things:
1. You have to set them ahead of time.
2. That means you're targeting indirectly and don't know what value you'll get out of said targeting.
These seem to be lessening the value of Snares for you to such a degree that Snares should be reusable until they actually trigger. IMO that's a more valid argument than trying to twist the rules which I think clearly say one cannot.
1 is both a drawback and a boon. If used correctly, like in the traditional thematic way of baiting a trap, Snares are giving you free actions. That's darnright powerful. I'd say the potential to get free attacks balances against the risk of getting none (depending on other costs of course).
2 relies on 1, and the issues with 1 can be overcome with scouting (among other things). It also matters somewhat on the campaign and specific cluster of encounters. I've found it relatively easy to predict what types of enemies I'd be facing (while on site, not necessarily while buying supplies).
But whether one's getting good value out of Snares again boils down to how much did they cost. Is their iffiness calculated in already?
PF2 tends to balance mechanics around the players/circumstances that get maximum usage out of said mechanics. Just like Alchemy (and IMO Talismans too), maybe using the at-level "too expensive" versions of these are only meant for PCs with abilities tied to getting them free? Or maybe Snares simply aren't meant to be used by anybody but Rangers, Snarecrafters, & Kobolds with their free usages?
Speaking of which, Rangers & Snarecrafters can use Snares quite directly, or at least as directly as some pretty good Wall spells. I've also read positive feedback from several Snare users, at least one of whom hadn't had high hopes, yet was amazed. So there are people getting excellent usage out of Snares, even as is without reuse.
So yeah, the rules seem fairly clear that you cannot reuse Snares, and the arguments made here to tweak one's interpretation haven't persuaded me. I'm not sure what would given the success & enjoyment others have had.
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All excellent points Castilliano. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
You're focused too much on the phrase 'found snares' when just a little bit further down the same page, we're told in rather uncertain language that snares are
A) crafted into a specific 5-foot square
B) cannot be moved once crafted without destroying the snare."Once constructed, it can't be moved" isn't exactly an ambiguous statement, and a destroyed item is functionally useless. I like your interpretation, but I don't see how we get around that line.
You are being very selective in your reading and in choosing your emphasis. Explain what is the difference between disabling and destroying a snare? Is there a difference because the rules think there is?
This is natural language. It is perfectly acceptable for there to be a qualifying statement to an apparently absolute statement.
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1) At what range can you set up a snare? In your own space only? An adjacent space? Ten feet away?
Not explicitly stated anywhere, but not solved by changing the rules to match your version.
2) When spending downtime to Craft and get a discount on the snare, what do you end up with? Must you be in the vicinity of the final destination in the field the entire time (possibly weeks)?
Snares are crafted in a 5 foot square, rules are pretty clear here.
3) What happens when you get a Critical Success to Disable a Device on a snare?
This:
You disable the device, or you achieve two successes toward disabling a complex device. You leave no trace of your tampering, and you can rearm the device later, if that type of device can be rearmed.
4) Can incorporeal creatures trigger snares?
Your answer to this does not change if you make snares retrievable or not.
5) Can you Craft snares in batches, and if so must they all be in the field in the same square or in adjoining squares?
This is actually a good question, because strict RAW is absolutely yes and unclear (but probably not). There's no text to describe batch crafting snares. This is an actual rules hole and one, admittedly, that your changes address nicely.
6) Do you need to make a Craft check to set up a snare in the field, and if so, what happens if you Critically Fail?
If you critically fail your crafting check:
You fail to complete the item. You ruin 10% of the raw materials you supplied, but you can salvage the rest. If you want to try again, you must start over.
Fairly straight forward. This happens if you allow snares to be retrieved and redeployed too though.
7) Can you set up multiple snares in the same space?
No explicit mention one way or the other that I can find, but your answer to this question does not change if you make snares retrievable or not.
You are being very selective in your reading and in choosing your emphasis. Explain what is the difference between disabling and destroying a snare? Is there a difference because the rules think there is?
This is natural language. It is perfectly acceptable for there to be a qualifying statement to an apparently absolute statement.
Selective how? The rules that you can't move a snare without destroying it seems pretty straight forward.
Are you suggesting that destroyed snares should still function properly? That seems to fly in the face of your natural language assertion.
OK. From a rules perspective now. Reading through the Snare Rules and summarizing the relevant rules:
Snares: You don't craft snare setup kits at home and set them up. The 'snare kit' item is a toolkit that is needed in order to create a snare. The snare itself must be crafted on location. Also if you find a snare, you cannot collect it in its completed form.
Crafting Snares: Once a snare is crafted and set up, it cannot simply be moved to a different location. Trying to move a set up snare will trigger or at least destroy it.
Detecting Snares: nothing relevant.
Triggering Snares: nothing relevant.
Disabling Snares: If you find a snare or if you create a snare, you can attempt to disable it. You automatically succeed if you were the one that created it.
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So, I understand the reasoning that snares cannot be deconstructed without destroying them. I don't think that is an incorrect reading of the rules.
But I don't think that is the only valid reading of the rules, or even the most RAW way of reading the rules.
The first section, 'Snares', even goes out of its way to say that snares that you find cannot be collected "in their complete form". It doesn't say that the snares cannot be collected for any value, or be collected under any circumstances.
The section on Crafting Snares says that they cannot be moved once constructed. But it says nothing about being dismantled to collect the resources again.
And the section on Disabling Snares says that a snare absolutely can be disabled - but doesn't really say what the state of a disabled snare is or what you can or cannot do with it while it is in that state.
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So my thought is that snare rules explicitly say that once a snare has been created, it can be disabled. And it implicitly says that once a snare has been disabled, it can be scavenged for materials using the Craft skill the same as any other item... Which, I'm not sure that there are actually rules for.
I recall seeing snares as treasure somewhere too, breithauptclan, which fits in line with some of what you're reading. If snares are not physical objects prior to being assembled, and cannot under any circumstances be moved after being assembled, then how can they ever be treasure?
I'll see if I can track down where I saw that (it is totally possible I'm misremembering).
EDIT: Oh wow. That didn't take long. A few quick searches found them as treasure in nearly every adventure path. Abomination Vaults, Age of Ashes, Agents of Edgewatch, Blood Lords, Extinction Curse, Fists of the Ruby Pheonix, and Quest for the Frozen Flame all have different types of snares listed as treasure in them. In AV one instance is described as a snare, rather than snare components. In another instance (in the same module) the snare IS described as components. In both AoA and in AoE, the snares are again described as discreet items and not as components, in several places. BL describes them as components. AoE specifically mentions getting snares as treasure from disarmed traps (though the trap itself does not appear to have been a snare). EC describes them as components rather than discreet items. FotRP describes them as items, not components. QftFF describes them as "materials for [snares]" in some places, and as whole snares in others. IN at least one place it specifically says "10 gp worth of [undefined] snare crafting components."
In short, it seems the developers are as divided as we are, and all interpretations are possible, though mutually exclusive.
Yep
CHAPTER 1 TREASURE
The permanent and consumable
items available as treasure in
Chapter 1 are as follows.
...
• caltrop snare
...
• spike snare
...
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Age of Ashes could be just a discrepancy between the final rules and the rules used to write the AP with.
It could also be that the AP writers aren't as much of rules lawyers as we are on these forums.
Snakes have multiple states.
(1) uncrafted as a snare kit + raw materials.
Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry
(2) a prepared snare - eg from Snare Genius Each day during your daily preparations, you can prepare three snares from your formula book for quick deployment
This is probably just the same as (1) but you didn't have to pay for it.
(3) a crafted and deployed snare A snare is built within a single 5-foot square. Once constructed, it can’t be moved without destroying (and often triggering) the snare.. There is no way to construct a snare without deploying it.
(4) destroyed. By moving it, or triggering it
(5) disarmed By Disable a Device
(6) disabled. By Using Disable Device on a success.
(7) disabled and rearmable. By Using Disable Device on a critical success. That is is, if the GM lets this rule work. They may decide a snare is not rearmable.
Finally maye you can repair a damaged snare using the Repair action. But you are way into GM land here. I doubt many GMs would let you repair a consumable.
Anyway this is clearly too many states
(1) (2) (7) IMHO are clearly the same thing - a prepared snare. This can be bought and sold and is available as treasure in the module. Though there should be a restriction that the temporary version of these can't be sold.
(4) a destroyed snare is worth nothing.
(5) and (6) disabled and disarmed are the same thing. But are they destroyed or prepared. Impossible to tell.
The problem is Paizo have changed distorted reality here for game reasons. It is not immediately clear why a snare is not reusable. I mean a bear trap is almost infinitely reusable. A pit trap is basically impossible to reuse or move - fortunately there is no example of them as a snare. But clearly simple alarm and trip snares will often be largely reuseable. So what if the victim damages or tangles the trap it should be fixable.
Then there is the fact that snares are incredibly difficult to see once placed.
So it is hard to say what the right ruling is here, because we are clearly in the land of game mechanics and have long left any sense of realism behind.
Age of Ashes could be just a discrepancy between the final rules and the rules used to write the AP with.
It could also be that the AP writers aren't as much of rules lawyers as we are on these forums.
No it is in others. Here is an example from Kingmaker
and they keep all the components needed to quickly construct a spike snare handy here
I've finished my search and have edited my above post to cover all the current adventure paths.
It seems that snares can be found both as distinct items and as components. This hints to me that they can be disassembled and moved, but even I can admit it's not really solid evidence on its own.
In any case, if you Craft a snare on the spot, rather than merely setting it up, what do you take and not take from the Crafting rules???
Can a player set up four snares in a single minute (or less with feats and abilities) since they are consumables? Do you really force your player to make a Craft check every time the set up a snare, risking their hard earned treasure for an already likely-not-to-work trap? If you follow the interpretation that they are Crafted on the spot, I think you'd find yourself hard pressed to find out where the line is meant to be drawn.
These just aren't issues under my interpretation of the rules.
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I've finished my search and have edited my above post to cover all the current adventure paths.
It seems that snares can be found both as distinct items and as components. This hints to me that they can be disassembled and moved, but even I can admit it's not really solid evidence on its own.
I don't think there is any difference between these two states. You craft a snare when you deploy it. Until then it is just some components for a snare.
I don't think there is any difference between these two states. You craft a snare when you deploy it. Until then it is just some components for a snare.I've finished my search and have edited my above post to cover all the current adventure paths.
It seems that snares can be found both as distinct items and as components. This hints to me that they can be disassembled and moved, but even I can admit it's not really solid evidence on its own.
Okay.
The more I delve into it the more it seems all interpretations are possibilities, and that people should just play it out in the way they want at their tables.
Thankfully, I have at least one GM who agrees with me that un-triggered snares can be recovered, so I'm good regardless of whatever comes out of this thread.
Unfortunately Paizo have left quite a few things vague. Different tables playing the game differently doesn't bother them.
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The Recycled Cogwheel feat from the Trapsmith Archetype is needed if you want to deconstruct and later redeploy a snare that you have already set up.
The Recycled Cogwheel feat from the Trapsmith Archetype is needed if you want to deconstruct and later redeploy a snare that you have already set up.
"You're able to scavenge the cogwheels from your daily quick-deploy snares that use gears." <- That looks like something specifically different.
Traps that haven't deployed? Yeah, we re-use if disabled. Why not?
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The Recycled Cogwheel feat from the Trapsmith Archetype is needed if you want to deconstruct and later redeploy a snare that you have already set up."You're able to scavenge the cogwheels from your daily quick-deploy snares that use gears." <- That looks like something specifically different.
Traps that haven't deployed? Yeah, we re-use if disabled. Why not?
This feels like a case of "keep reading".
You're able to scavenge the cogwheels from your daily quick-deploy snares that use gears. This allows you to deconstruct a snare that didn't trigger in order to set the snare up somewhere else. Doing so takes the same number of actions as setting the snare did. When you do, you recover the snare and can deploy it in another location.
The whole purpose of the feat is to allow you to do something not normally allowed by the rules: Collecting an un-triggered snare to re deploy it elsewhere. This feat in essence does what OP wants to do, which leads me to believe that doing so without this feat is not possible.
Since if it was possible to disable, pack up and redeploy a snare as a baseline, what purpose does this feat even serve?
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I don't think there is any difference between these two states. You craft a snare when you deploy it. Until then it is just some components for a snare.I've finished my search and have edited my above post to cover all the current adventure paths.
It seems that snares can be found both as distinct items and as components. This hints to me that they can be disassembled and moved, but even I can admit it's not really solid evidence on its own.
Okay.
The more I delve into it the more it seems all interpretations are possibilities, and that people should just play it out in the way they want at their tables.
Thankfully, I have at least one GM who agrees with me that un-triggered snares can be recovered, so I'm good regardless of whatever comes out of this thread.
All interpretations are possibilities?
Nope, not if using the rules. There are no rules allowing for retrieval (other than Recycled Cogwheel which just illustrates the point that normally Snares cannot be retrieved) and there are rules saying Snares are immovable and get destroyed.That's not to say there isn't a certain amount of realism in being able to retrieve Snares. Some AP authors apparently fell prey to intuitively thinking of Snares as normal and realistic, but PF2 intentionally uses unrealistic snares.
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I would also like to note that the existence of snares in loot does not mean that said snare happens to be in a complete form. In fact, we know that it cannot be since snares must be crafted in place. Instead you are likely finding all of the components for said snare, not the complete snare. Think of it like finding all of the parts of a longsword as loot. You wouldn't argue that you use it as a longsword right? Not until it is properly assembled.
I haven't really played in too many pf2e adventure paths, as my group tends to prefer home brew campaigns, but to quote Gortle slightly up thread, "and they keep all the components needed to quickly construct a spike snare handy here."
All of the components and notably not a complete Spike Snare.
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I am of the belief that this is another example of "natural language" muddying the waters. The answers here are not concrete in any way that I'd feel comfortable saying X or Y is correct so I'll just give my view.
The rules seem to conflate the term Snare not only with the sort of type of object but ALSO as an active Combat Hazard. When it says you cannot deactivate a Snare without destroying it I am of the belief what they are saying is that it STOPS being a Snare when you deactivate by way of destruction in the same sense that when you disable/destroy a Trap or Hazard it stops having an active statblock and that it cannot function to enact its triggers and effects. In my eyes, I see two different "states" for a snare; Snare (Combat Hazard) & Snare (Equipment)
I am of the opinion that you can and probably SHOULD assume that you can craft them ahead of time using the downtime rules and then you'd have what is essentially a non-activated form of the Snare (Equipment) that is ready to place and by spending the quoted 1-minute (or less depending on what features you have) you are placing it as the Snare (Combat Hazard) which then allows it to function and do what it states it does. There is always also the option to just craft it where you want to have it function as a Snare (Combat Hazard) too, but as many others here have covered that is not at all ideal, smart, or in most cases even feasible to do at all.
Yet another reason why I feel it was a big mistake to tackle the mechanics of the system with "natural language" instead of hard-coding everything in an extremely strict codified uniquely worded and proscribed Trait-based manner rather than sort of going halfway there and using creatives instead of programmers to vet how the rules actually interact and what they mean.
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Yet another reason why I feel it was a big mistake to tackle the mechanics of the system with "natural language" instead of hard-coding everything in an extremely strict codified uniquely worded and proscribed Trait-based manner rather than sort of going halfway there and using creatives instead of programmers to vet how the rules actually interact and what they mean.
Oh, I absolutely feel the same way. The CRB would be a lot better if it was written in C++.
The problem is that it wouldn't sell as well that way since the vast majority of the target audience wouldn't be able to read it.
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Yet another reason why I feel it was a big mistake to tackle the mechanics of the system with "natural language" instead of hard-coding everything in an extremely strict codified uniquely worded and proscribed Trait-based manner rather than sort of going halfway there and using creatives instead of programmers to vet how the rules actually interact and what they mean.Oh, I absolutely feel the same way. The CRB would be a lot better if it was written in C++.
The problem is that it wouldn't sell as well that way since the vast majority of the target audience wouldn't be able to read it.
There are enough technical people here it would sell better than you think.
More importantly well structured text that uses defined terms, and never reuses terms like level or attack except in their rules context, would fixed a whole lot of things.
One simple example: replace the attack trait with a MAP trait. Then define attack roll and attack to be the same thing. In any rule where they mean attack say attack, if they meant to include everything affected by MAP then say that.
Rewrite the definitions of certain traits. Example if the Construct trait always means the creature doesn't bleed then say that. If it means it probably doesn't bleed then say that. I'm very happy if they change their mind with errata when they introduce new things like Poppets. Just fix it up.
I object to the notion that well structured rules would have been less accessible to the average gamer.
There are a lot of rules problems in this game that could be easily fixed by simple edits.
There are some broader issues like the fact that some rules appearing in 3 different places and you have to check them all to get the full picture. That is what makes the rules hard to read. Not properley defined terms.
Pulling this from another thread where it was off-topic.
Well if deployed snares COULD be recovered, Recycled Cogwheel would be a dead feat, so I'd have to agree with others "on these forums". It could be more a case of those PFS DM's doing what they think is reasonable instead of a measured interpretation of "RAW" or taking a 'deep dive' into the exact wording to determine ambiguity. Snares aren't the most popular options after all so not every DM has the rules for them down pat.PFS GMs GM's are empowered to use their discretion in the face of: "Unclear rules, or situations or player actions not covered by the rules." They are no robots bound to individual player interpretation of "RAW." In fact, you'll find no such phrasing in any PFS guidance for PF2.Indeed! Despite all the people telling me that snares cannot be recovered after being armed (but not triggered) on these forums, I have yet to meet a Society GM who didn't let me recover my snares.
I disagree that it makes Recycled Cogwheel a dead feat as that only applies to temporary one-and-done snares granted by feats.
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I disagree that it makes Recycled Cogwheel a dead feat as that only applies to temporary one-and-done snares granted by feats.
Wasn't that the snares you referenced in your OP? You even reference them there, where it notes that "Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266) and "Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form." I don't see where the game ever gives the rules for snares NOT granted by the feats.
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I disagree that it makes Recycled Cogwheel a dead feat as that only applies to temporary one-and-done snares granted by feats.
You know that makes it worse right?
Since Recycled Cogwheel only allows you to pick up your daily "free" snares, allowing a player to pick up any snare they like makes that specialized ability to pick up your specialized snares worthless.
Since you could just pick them up anyway without it, right? Or are you saying that you should be able to pick up any non-snare specialist/snare genius/ what have you snare, but for some reason are unable to pick up said special snares?
So what purpose does the feat serve then in your opinion, assuming that your interpretation of snare portability is true?
Or are you saying that you should be able to pick up any non-snare specialist/snare genius/ what have you snare, but for some reason are unable to pick up said special snares?
Pretty much this. I don't believe that the developers intended you to be able to reuse a limited use ability more times per day than it grants. That would be like an alchemist being able to use his bombs more times per day than his class allows just because he missed a lot.
However, I don't believe that to be the case for snares that you have prepared in advance via more traditional means. They are more permanent, at least until they are triggered.
In short, quick snares don't exist until you use them, and so don't really exist after you use them. Normal snare, however, have presence in the world at all times. They stick around, allowing them to be bought, brought on adventures, or found as treasure.
If I buy 100 snares, I should be able use 100 snares, more than once if they don't trigger. But if I have an ability that says I can set 8 snares in a day, I should not be able to set 12 snares in that day just because some never triggered.
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Snip for Brevity.
RD, you just described Snares backwards.
Crafting Snares tells you that you build a snare within a single 5 foot square. Not in your workshop or some other place. Then it goes on to tell you that, once built, the snare Cannot be moved without destroying it. Destroy, not disassemble or recover or any other similar word.
This is how Snare Specialist and similar abilities tend to describe their special daily snares,
Each day during your daily preparations, you can prepare four snares from your formula book for quick deployment; if they normally take 1 minute to Craft, you can Craft them with 3 Interact actions. The number of snares increases to six if you have master proficiency in Crafting and eight if you have legendary proficiency in Crafting. Snares prepared in this way don't cost you any resources to Craft.
If either one of these two can possibly be described as having been prebuilt, it is the Snare Specialist daily snares, not standard snares. And even these note that they are still crafted. Not placed or thrown down. Crafted in the 5 foot square where they will remain barring one of the two ways I am aware of "legally" moving a snare, both of which are much more limited in utility than simply being able to pick up and move a snare.
Pretty much this. I don't believe that the developers intended you to be able to reuse a limited use ability more times per day than it grants.
And I don't believe that Paizo intended for you to be able to reuse snares in their current form. That is likely the price you pay for them scaling so far in damage instead of staying limited in that regard. I would have preferred if snares would have been more about inflicting debuffs than doing damage, even more so than they are now. That would probably free up enough "power budget" to allow the reuse of snares, not to mention dropping their price to a more reasonable amount.
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If I buy 100 snares, I should be able use 100 snares, more than once if they don't trigger. But if I have an ability that says I can set 8 snares in a day, I should not be able to set 12 snares in that day just because some never triggered.
Every Snare described I could find has the Consumable trait: "An item with this trait can be used only once. Unless stated otherwise, it's destroyed after activation. Consumable items include alchemical items and magical consumables such as scrolls and talismans. When a character creates consumable items, they can make them in batches of four.
They also have the Snare trait:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 636
"Traps typically made by rangers, snares follow special rules that allow them to be constructed quickly and used on the battlefield."
Also mentioned here in Snares
Source Advanced Player's Guide pg. 247
Snares are small, simple traps to damage or hamper your foes that you can create and deploy quickly enough to utilize on a battlefield. Snares are nonmagical consumable items.
And Snares
Source Core Rulebook pg. 589
Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266). Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry. Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form.
So a snare is in the same category as scrolls, talismans and potions: you don't get to spit a Barkskin Potion back into the bottle or cough up an eaten ration anymore than you can pick a snare back up as the activation is starting the item, either drinking it or setting it up: the activation. The activation isn't getting attacks with the Barkskin Potion nor the snare getting triggered. If they expected you to pick up and reuse snares they wouldn't have the Consumable trait.
Activating Items
Source Core Rulebook pg. 532
"If an item is used up when activated, as is the case for consumable items, its Activate entry appears toward the top of the stat block. For permanent items with activated abilities, the Activate entry is a paragraph in the description. Activations are not necessarily magical—for instance, drinking an alchemical elixir isn’t usually a magical effect."
The only it can work like you think it does is is you build a Trap and not a Snare as they aren't Consumable: for instance, you can set up a Explosive Furniture Trap or a Hallucination Powder Trap and if it doesn't trigger you could move it.
So a snare is in the same category as scrolls, talismans and potions: you don't get to spit a Barkskin Potion back into the bottle or cough up an eaten ration
But you can detach a talisman from your weapon or armor if you haven't activated it yet.
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If the Snare isn't triggered then it is not, in my view, Activated and consumed.
But it's still deployed and can't be moved without destroying it.
Every Snare described I could find has the Consumable trait: "An item with this trait can be used only once. Unless stated otherwise, it's destroyed after activation.
Snares aren't destroyed unless armed and then triggered. A snare that is only armed cannot be said to have activated.
You cannot say that a snare does not exist until it is armed, and also say it is activated (and thus destroyed) when armed. That's a perpetual state of non-existence.
Either snares exist prior to being armed and cease being a distinct object upon being armed (are consumed), or they don't exist as a distinct object prior to being armed and are only consumed once triggered.
You do not get to have your cake and eat it too.
If the Snare isn't triggered then it is not, in my view, Activated and consumed.
Exactly how I see it as well.
But it's still deployed and can't be moved without destroying it.
Can't be moved while in a completed state. A snare that is not armed is not in a completed state.
And again, that may well only apply to found snares anyways (that is, those you did not arm yourself).
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By "destroying it" I see that as meaning you destroy it as a Snare (Combat Hazard) by disabling it so one might pick it back up as a completed Snare (Equipment).
The rules for this are inconsistent and confusing but I WILL openly admit that after reviewing things again I have run into one more tick in the NOPE column here in that the doesn't seem to be any evidence of Bulk calculations whatsoever but that's... again, another issue since it means that someone can carry an unlimited amount of Crafting Materials for them without suffering from any negative impact.
Again, I very much see this as being just another system that was half-baked and abandoned to the realm of GM fiat.
I very much see this as being just another system that was half-baked and abandoned to the realm of GM fiat.
I fear that may be so.
Hopefully clarification arrives at some point.
Outside of PFS we don't even have anything that says snares granted daily by abilities ever go away.
Does a ranger who can Craft 4 snares a day have 40 snares after 10 days of downtime?
I think not, but the RAW is unclear.
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If the Snare isn't triggered then it is not, in my view, Activated and consumed.Exactly how I see it as well.
But it's still deployed and can't be moved without destroying it.Can't be moved while in a completed state. A snare that is not armed is not in a completed state.
And again, that may well only apply to found snares anyways (that is, those you did not arm yourself).
Snares only exist while deployed. One cannot buy or carry a Snare; only the raw materials for Crafting it later at one's desired spot. There isn't a "not completed" state of being for a Snare to have; those raw materials have no Snare traits. One can prep to Craft a Snare, but the Crafting & placing are simultaneous and cannot be separated.
At best one could argue to retrieve the raw materials for one's next version of the same Snare, but rules seem to disallow that. If you use a consumable that ends up not having an effect (perhaps due to targeting poorly), you don't get that consumable back. That's how Snares are, even if targeting for them's particularly tricky.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So a snare is in the same category as scrolls, talismans and potions: you don't get to spit a Barkskin Potion back into the bottle or cough up an eaten rationBut you can detach a talisman from your weapon or armor if you haven't activated it yet.
So? You aren't crafting a talisman in an immovable space and Affixing a Talisman is defined differently than an Activate activity: If you can find a Place a Snare/Trap activity that is seperate from an Activate for them, then what you said makes a difference as Talismans have proviso that Snares do not [or potions, or elixirs, or scrolls, or food or fired ammo or...]
Snares aren't destroyed unless armed and then triggered. A snare that is only armed cannot be said to have activated.
Once you have completed Crafting it, it's activated: nowhere is it said that Triggered is the equivalent to activated.
You cannot say that a snare does not exist until it is armed, and also say it is activated (and thus destroyed) when armed. That's a perpetual state of non-existence.
I very much CAN say a snare doesn't exist until it's armed: you create it armed or are you saying that snares take an extra action to arm them? There is no extra action as they are created and activated together in one activity or you're saying there is a new undefined action to do so.
Either snares exist prior to being armed and cease being a distinct object upon being armed (are consumed), or they don't exist as a distinct object prior to being armed and are only consumed once triggered.
Nothing I could find suggests that a snare exists before being crafted in a space pre-armed and in place and unable to be moved without being destroyed. Again, show the activity that arms one or that allows you to pick one up: neither exists except for Recycled Cogwheel.
You do not get to have your cake and eat it too.
This makes 0% sense: you create a consumible trap that you do NOT have to spend extra actions to arm and can NEVER EVER move from that space without being destroyed. I'm not having it both ways,just following what is in the book.
Can't be moved while in a completed state. A snare that is not armed is not in a completed state.
Please point out where this is stated: the action cost given is for creating the item IN IT'S COMPLETE STATE: that's the default and you have NOTHING to back up that snares are an exception.
And again, that may well only apply to found snares anyways (that is, those you did not arm yourself).
There is NO distinction between your snares and other snares past what specific feats give you: the only feat that mentions recovering a snare is Recycled Cogwheel. Again, if it's the default that untriggered snares can be recovered, Recycled Cogwheel is totally worthless as it doesn't give you anything new.
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Can't be moved while in a completed state. A snare that is not armed is not in a completed state.
Can you cite something in the rules to this effect? Because the snare rules previously cited draw none of the distinctions you're claiming exist here.
In fact it's really straight forward
Once constructed, it can’t be moved without destroying (and often triggering) the snare.
Once your snare is constructed, it cannot be moved without destroying it. So, by definition, in any scenario where you have not destroyed a constructed snare, it cannot be moved.
I can totally sympathize with wishing the rules for snares weren't this way, but it's very strange to look at such a clear piece of text and then just insist that it's somehow not a real rule.