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In that case, no. Spells and abilities that allow creatures to change shape into a different size push creatures away, and if there's not enough room to reach that size, the ability fails. I'm trying to find references at the moment, but changing size should never have any mechanical effect beyond the creature changing size. Also note, that if a creature is three sizes larger than a creature, they can move through each other's spaces just fine.
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Looks like it's mentioned in pretty much all the Battle Form spells that if you don't have enough space the spell is lost, but I would apply that to any polymorph effect that changes your size. It makes everything a lot easier when you don't have to deal with trying to Force Open things that would be containing you.
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Looks like it's mentioned in pretty much all the Battle Form spells that if you don't have enough space the spell is lost, but I would apply that to any polymorph effect that changes your size. It makes everything a lot easier when you don't have to deal with trying to Force Open things that would be containing you.
This situation is actually the Dismissing of a polymorph effect rather than using one, so Pest Form seems like the better match for this situation: If I crawl into a narrow pipe in Pest form and refuse to come out, does the form last indefinitely???
Baleful Polymorph is another spell where this situation might reasonably occur.
Looks like it's mentioned in pretty much all the Battle Form spells that if you don't have enough space the spell is lost, but I would apply that to any polymorph effect that changes your size. It makes everything a lot easier when you don't have to deal with trying to Force Open things that would be containing you.This situation is actually the Dismissing of a polymorph effect rather than using one, so Pest Form seems like the better match for this situation: If I crawl into a narrow pipe in Pest form and refuse to come out, does the form last indefinitely???
Baleful Polymorph is another spell where this situation might reasonably occur.
I think the Pest Form user would be pushed out of the confined space until reaching the nearest space where the full size could be met. That could mean for a rather interesting way of firing out a tube towards the closest opening…
dragon in humanoid (elf) form is surrounded by a player on each non-diagonal side.
Can dragon transform into its natural huge form?
If so, what happens if there are walls behind the players?
In a lot of Polymorph effects (maybe all) that makes your size increase it states that the effect is lost if you can't grow. But this case is a bit different as the Dragon is not really in a confined area and has technically the space to grow.
I'd personally consider that the dragon has to move (using a move action) to get outside the character's space. Following the rules for movement that state that you can be in someone's space momentarily but that you need to end your round in a valid space.Now, if the dragon is trying to grow in a place that can exactly contain a Huge creature when there are adventurers in there... Normally, it should be impossible, you are trying to push beyond the walls, so to say.
Personally, here is what I would do:
1) Unless the building/etc is less than the size category of the creature being transformed into/reverting to I wouldn't have it autofail.
2) In the case of transforming into a huge dragon, I would let medium creatures occupy the same space. The is an extrapolation of the rules for tiny creatures occupying the same space as medium creatures (technically also with small creatures, but it get's weird if you don't impose a least two size category difference requirement. To the previous poster point, creatures don't occupy the entirety of the space that they have as cubes/squares.
3) I might apply some sort of penalty to the dragon for being in the same space as the smaller creatures.
4) I might allow the dragon (assuming enough space) to spend an action to fly up 5ft as they're transforming to avoid other questions around this and make it simple (aside from giving them a sort of special ability to transform and move as a single activity [with 2 action cost] rather than 2 separate actions).
Definitely agree that any initial transforming should not displace, push, or otherwise have game effects since the default of "spell fails" was developed to avoid the ridiculous shenanigans in previous editions. If the dragon is using an ability to alter their form, even if it's to revert to their natural size, then that ability fails.
The trouble arises when the creature's not using an ability, but rather the polymporph effect is ending; there is no more magic to sustain it. Many of the "shunted to the nearest available space" effects were created to avoid such imbalanced impacts. These effects are tied to teleporting (leap to that space) or shapeshifting (move through intervening space & creatures). Shunting seems reasonable in terms of balance (if not in some contrived situation for rocket propulsion) even if a bit unrealistic until yeah, what if the creature's completely enclosed?
That's a quandary that I hope doesn't arise at my tables, especially with some devious expectation by a player. But as my guiding principle I'd aim for a result which has the least impact so as to avoid shenanigans that could be manipulated both for or against polymorphed creatures to some greater effect than the spells warrant.
I think focusing on faux-physics and verisimilitude will lead to endless corner cases that abuse those interpretations so suggest keeping the adjudication simple and of minimal impact.
The heart of my question is this: I struggle with the idea that a dragon - who retains all of its stats (strength, AC, etc.) - cannot displace objects, monsters, characters and even not super sturdy walls when reverting to its true form.
If you consider that the Fighter next to it has the same Strength, AC, etc. it becomes much more logical for the Dragon to be unable to displace anything.
The issue of your reasoning is that by allowing characters/monsters to destroy super sturdy walls and displace whatever they want the game ends up quite crazy unless you bring the rule that "only monsters can destroy super sturdy walls and displace whatever they want". Then, it becomes a bit unfair.PF2 characters are heroes and must be seen as heroes. The Fighter, despite having a 10th of the size of the Dragon, can successfully Shove it, Grapple it and punch it in the face. This is no basic human, it's closer to Superman level of human. And definitely, your Dragon won't push Superman (unless it's a Kryptonite Dragon).
Thanks to everyone for responding.
I think the most compelling argument I have heard is that tiny creatures can occupy the same space as a larger creature and therefore a medium creature can occupy the same space as a huge creature. Reason being that medium creatures do not occupy the entirety of their 5-ft by 5-ft space.
The dragon can transform but the players around him are not shoved and experience no other ill effects.
I understand that this is not RAW, however, given that a medium creature can occupy the same space as their large mount (as well as their being other exceptions) I am going to allow it.
I do happen to have a druid in the party and I will inform them of my conditional leniency on this issue.
I think this is a reasonable ruling that helps prevent some other weird things that could pop up, but there is no one ruling that will answer all scenarios in a satisfying way.
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I think the Pest Form user would be pushed out of the confined space until reaching the nearest space where the full size could be met. That could mean for a rather interesting way of firing out a tube towards the closest opening…
...which can be several thousands of miles away due to the highly elaborate new transit network my players are going to build now.
Instantaneous travel FTW! XD
I think the Pest Form user would be pushed out of the confined space until reaching the nearest space where the full size could be met. That could mean for a rather interesting way of firing out a tube towards the closest opening…...which can be several thousands of miles away due to the highly elaborate new transit network my players are going to build now.
Instantaneous travel FTW! XD
But is the exit closer than the entrance?
But is the exit closer than the entrance?I think the Pest Form user would be pushed out of the confined space until reaching the nearest space where the full size could be met. That could mean for a rather interesting way of firing out a tube towards the closest opening…...which can be several thousands of miles away due to the highly elaborate new transit network my players are going to build now.
Instantaneous travel FTW! XD
Ah never mind! You just shut the entrance after entering and only have the exit as a viable location. :)
I am all for a gerbil tunnel network built all over the city in the style of Futurama.
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Yeah, but each tube can only have one location it exits to (because one location would always be the closest).
So you have to make it a bit like a subway system, it's going to run all over the city, and it's going to probably have a central station that all pipes run to, and then you go to the tube that leads to your end destination. Since we're talking about pest form with spider and rat sized creatures, it shouldn't be too much of a nuisance to have a bundle of pipes to accommodate those size creatures running through parts of the city.
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Maurice!
The transit pipes are clogged again and we've got an irate wizard who is... *short pause followed by some whispering and muttering* ..."going to miss his chance at getting to the proper layline nexus in time for the annual archmage gathering."
Rats! Real ones! ROUS's from the sounds of it, if you can believe it!
As silly an idea as this is, I am moving a bit closer to implementing something like it for a wizard academy.
As silly an idea as this is, I am moving a bit closer to implementing something like it for a wizard academy.
In first edition I would have imagined they would have permanent teleportation circles with a central hub.
As silly an idea as this is, I am moving a bit closer to implementing something like it for a wizard academy.In first edition I would have imagined they would have permanent teleportation circles with a central hub.
My only issue with teleportation circles and sites is that it is obvious (for good reason) and requires higher level magics. A system of low-cost, one-way tubes only requiring a 1st level slot, a cheap wand, or an even cheaper scroll, seem like a reasonable alternative to high level ritual magic. Of course this is all dependent on interpreting the spell to work that way. Again, I am aware this heavily leans to ridiculous, but I also kinda like it.
This does make me wonder about the consequences of resorting back to normal form from a use of Pest Form when the area dimensions are too confined to be able to fit in normal form. I know that is basically the original point of this thread, but it seems like it may need an definitive answer. I don’t think a character should be trapped in a tiny animal form because the enemy was clever enough to catch the player and toss them in a tiny cage. That seems like it could very well happen based on how the rules work. I know the spell Shrink Item specifically states that if there is not enough room for the item to expand back, it will stay shrunk. The 2nd level Shrink does not make that caveat.
I don’t know. It seems like there is some dangerous exploits that could occur.
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To be honest, no single ruling will eliminate dangerous exploits or shenanigans.
If you rule that being in too small an area prevents you from growing in size then you can keep a spell running for way longer than it should and imprison someone in tiny cages.
If you rule that they are shunted to the nearest available space you get rat subways.
If you rule that they are shunted to the nearest available space, but it ignores physical restrictions now you have people literally teleporting through walls. Which is also very ridiculous.
I don't see a resolution that is satisfying. Although "teleported" to nearest space is probably best for game balance, it's also the one that makes the least sense in universe.