Say I take a Greensting Scorpion as my familiar. The Scorp loses its 'mindless' quality, and because it's a familiar, 'cooperative' is also on the table, correct?
So, let's say that Greensting Scorpion is all in my head. Can I still milk it? Is it imaginary poison? Is my character that unintentionally psychic that they can manifest this poison? Does it disappear if the animal 'dies?'
I can't find anything RAW that says 'no you can't milk a figment archetype familiar'. I've probably missed something.
Thank you!
|
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation.
Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression.
Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment
that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate
a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you
cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.
Apparently, you can't.
A figment familiar is a “figment of your imagination” it is not a figment spell. They can deal damage to objects and creatures, they can support weight. You cannot eat one as they disappear upon death (whether or not u could eat parts of one while still keeping it alive who knows. Probably.). As for protection from elements I suppose u could tuck a tiny familiar inside your coat and get a little warmth that way. Nothing within the text of the familiar archetype suggests that they are “unreal” or that they cannot produce real effects. I think they are pretty clearly not the type of figment found in figment spells. All that said there really isn’t any clear RAW answer to your question. I’m pretty positive that the poison produced by the familiar is “real” in that it can damage a creature. While the figment is manifested it should certainly be possible to milk it for poison and use such poison on other creatures. Whether or not this milked poison disappears when the familiar is not manifested is not clear. My personal opinion is that any creature currently suffering the effects of said poison will continue to be affected normally but any poison not used would likely disappear. Ultimately how all this plays out will be up to the GM as the text of the archetype simply doesn’t give enough information to make a certain RAW answer. Others may disagree with me on this but that’s how I read it anyways.
I would consider the poison part of the familiar. So, it would disappear whenever the familiar would. It would also disappear if it moved more than 100 feet from the master of the familiar.
|
|
A figment familiar is a “figment of your imagination” it is not a figment spell. They can deal damage to objects and creatures, they can support weight.
Citation, please.
Figments are born from their masters’ imaginations rather than awakened from ordinary creatures.
This replaces deliver touch spells
Apparently, it has some problem touching stuff.
The archetype lacks a lot of information one way or the other, but "figment" has a very specific in-game meaning.
Even not considering that the familiar exist only when the master is conscious and within range. I fail to see how a piece of the familiar will continue to exist if the conditions for the existence of the familiar aren't met, so the master will have a limited window of use for the figment poison.
Figment does have a specific in game meaning IN THE CONTEXT OF A SPELL (caps used for emphasis only). A figment familiar is NOT a spell. The familiar can do anything that a normal familiar can (other than what is specified in the archetype itself such as delivering touch spells or moving more than 100ft from its master) because nothing in the archetype says that its ability do do so has been altered. All archetypes specify what is altered or removed in its description. If it does not specify that an ability has been altered or removed (or added for that matter) then it is not. That’s just the way archetypes work. I think you are getting hung up on the title of the archetype which has NO bearing on the actual abilities granted by the archetype. The Barbarian Invulnerable Rager archetype in no way grants invulnerability to a character as invulnerable means “IMPOSSIBLE to harm or damage” according to the definition I looked up online. All that said I agree with Mysterious Stranger that any poison moved more than 100 ft from the master of the familiar should disappear.
As for the removal of the deliver touch spells ability I believe this is more for game balance rather than thematic reasons. Since the familiar cannot die removing deliver touch spells prevents the master from using their familiar like some kind of once per day kamikaze drone.
I'm with Trokarr on this matter. A Figment Familiar is not a [figment] spell. Due to the magical nature of the familiar bond, it is manifested FROM your imagination and given very real form for as long as it is manifested. Why? Because Magic, that's why.
While the game gives no real explanation as to what happens with harvested poisons from a figment familiar, I would agree with Mysterious Stranger if/when this issue came up in one of my games. Unless used, the poison would disappear when the familiar does, regardless of how much you've harvested. Damage already done by the poison remains, naturally, but ongoing effects would end (say if the familiar disappeared DURING the poison duration).
Thank you for your help. As a familiar can attack and others can experience its attacks, that's where I was making sure I wasn't missing RAW info. And no part of figment archetype says it can't attack, just that I can't use it to deliver my touch spells like Trokarr pointed out.
I think I defaulted to the same conclusions, if I were to dm this, but like I said, just wanted to make sure it was raw. I sort of see it as very interesting in that, if your caster isn't around to perceive it, surely it can't exits? with regards to the distance thing.
An interesting question none the less
Figment (Familiar Archetype)
Restriction: Elemental whisper familiars, shaman spirit animals, witch familiars, and familiars that grant spells can’t take the figment archetype, because they are attached to patrons or spirits.
Figments are born from their masters’ imaginations rather than being ordinary creatures that are awakened.
Recurring Dream (Su)
A figment has a total number of hit points equal to 1/4 of its master’s total hit points. If the figment dies, it vanishes, appearing again with 1 hit point after its master awakens from a full night’s sleep. If a figment ever strays more than 100 feet from its master or enters an antimagic field, or if a figment’s master is unconscious or asleep, the figment disappears until the next time its master prepares spells or regains her spells per day. Because it is a being of its master’s mind, a figment can never serve as a witch’s familiar, a shaman’s spirit animal, or any other spell-granting familiar, and it can’t use any divination spells or spell-like abilities the base creature has.
This replaces improved evasion.
Manifest Dreams (Su)
At 3rd level, a figment is shaped by its master’s dreams. Each time the master awakens from a full night’s rest, he can apply to the figment 1 evolution point’s worth of eidolon evolutions that don’t have a base form requirement. At 7th level, he can apply 2 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions; at 13th level, he can apply 3 points’ worth of eidolon evolutions.
This replaces deliver touch spells, speak with animals of its kind, and scry on familiar.
Milking Venom: Venom can be harvested from a living creature without harming the creature, although the process is dangerous unless the creature has been trained for that specific purpose (see Milk Venom). For most venomous creatures, this involves stretching a thin canvas over a jar or vial and then coaxing the creature to bite into the canvas before massaging its venom glands, causing the venom to drip from its fangs into the container. Similar methods are used for creatures that deliver venom in other ways, such as with a stinger.
Milking a single dose of poison from a creature takes 10 minutes of work and requires a successful Handle Animal check (DC = 10 + the donor’s Hit Dice + the donor’s Wisdom modifier). Failure by less than 5 indicates that the venom is not collected, but the handler suffers no other ill effect. Failure by 5 or more indicates that the creature bites, stings, or otherwise injects the handler with its venom. It automatically hits the handler with one of its natural attacks that delivers its poison, and it applies the effects of the attack normally. The creature might continue to attack the handler after doing so, possibly initiating combat. Milking venom from a cooperative intelligent creature doesn’t require a Handle Animal check but presents a 5% chance of exposure to the venom.
A creature can produce a number of doses of venom in this way each day equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1). A creature that is milked of venom this many times in one day (whether or not the attempts are successful) loses its poison special ability until the next time it rests.
The rules are unclear as to how a Figment Familiar operates with respect to being able to milk its venom-- it can go either way. I suppose it depends on whether you consider this Figment as a "Living Creature" or not. Personally, I would allow it-- I would consider this familiar to be a quasi-real entity because it is born from your imagination/dreams but there is nothing in the Figment Archetype that says the Figment cannot cause damage with a melee attack, nor anything in the archetype that forbids it's ability to poison enemies with their melee attacks. Additionally, there's nothing in the archetype that prevents an enemy from causing damage to the creature with physical attacks, so this infers that a Figment Familiar has a physical body. But, since there is no Specific rule in the archetype prohibiting the Figment Familiar from causing melee damage and inflicting poison, we go back to the General Rules that allow venomous familiars to inflict poison (and therefore *can* be milked).
Regarding how real a figment familiar may or may not be… the figment familiar is essentially a weak form Eidolon. So, yes, when manifest it is very much real, but it only exists while you ate conscious because it is manifest from a figment of your waking mind. When unconscious you lack the mental fortitude to maintain its form, exactly like a summoner and their Eidolon. All of its mechanics are derived from the Eidolon. With that in mind, if it were possible to have a poisonous/venomous Eidolon, would you be able to milk its venom/poison? If so, then the same applies to a figment familiar. If you think about it in terms of a weak Eidolon then you may find answers easier.
"Venom can be harvested from a living creature without harming the creature," - This is complete statement and should not be separated into pieces to pull the idea that you can only 'harvest venom from a living creature'. You can harvest venom from a dead creature too (there are rules for that proceeding the rules for milking venom), the key point being that you can do so HARMLESSLY to a living one even though it might be dangerous to do so.
So, it doesn't matter if the Figment is a living creature or not. Its venom CAN BE HARVESTED if it has venom. The only caveat is that if the Figment is DEAD, it is no longer around to be harvested from.
The only caveat is that if the Figment is DEAD, it is no longer around to be harvested from.
Not really the “only” caveat… in the question of “IF it can be done” sure… but after that is still a question of weather or not the venom is 100% real or if it too disappears when you are unconscious or if it is taken beyond 100ft from you.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding how real a figment familiar may or may not be… the figment familiar is essentially a weak form Eidolon. So, yes, when manifest it is very much real, but it only exists while you ate conscious because it is manifest from a figment of your waking mind. When unconscious you lack the mental fortitude to maintain its form, exactly like a summoner and their Eidolon. All of its mechanics are derived from the Eidolon. With that in mind, if it were possible to have a poisonous/venomous Eidolon, would you be able to milk its venom/poison? If so, then the same applies to a figment familiar. If you think about it in terms of a weak Eidolon then you may find answers easier.
Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score.
The equipment and pieces of a summoned creature disappear when the creature disappears, including its poison (but not the effects it has already delivered). If the figment familiar is treated as an eidolon (and I agree that it is what it resembles) its poison would disappear when it disappears.
The only caveat is that if the Figment is DEAD, it is no longer around to be harvested from.Not really the “only” caveat… in the question of “IF it can be done” sure… but after that is still a question of weather or not the venom is 100% real or if it too disappears when you are unconscious or if it is taken beyond 100ft from you.
Absent specific language that allows for parts or pieces of an imaginary creature given form by your own magic to persist beyond the manifestation of said power, I would strongly suggest that you treat any such parts or pieces (ie, poisons) taken from said creature to disappear when and how the said creature does.
To summarize, yes you can harvest poison and use it from a figment familiar. Does that poison disappear/vanish when it exceeds the range limitation and/or manifestation of the figment familiar? Again, yes.
There may not be any hard language to this end but we have more than enough rule resources to string together and make a highly educated guess on it. If the player wants to have an infinite poison machine, they should just get a normal familiar that isn't tethered to these particular restrictions.