As a major fan of such chimerical settings as Land of the Lost, Clan of the Cave Bear, 10,000 BC and Far Cry: Primal, I've long wanted to do a series of games set in a prehistoric setting. I had high hopes for Quest for the Frozen Flame giving some pointers, but they chose to hew pretty closely to the standard rules, with everybody getting standard steel weapons via trade and gold pieces being handed for eventual use. I have a few ideas for a more isolated setting, but haven't subjected the game to the rigorous degree of analysis that some here have, and would welcome any feedback or tips.
Spoilers hide cyclopean walls of text that could only have been built with the guidance of ancient astronauts*.
STONE/BONE WEAPONRY
On a related, but lesser note, Ultimate Equipment had fairly detailed rules on what weapons stone, bone, and obsidian could be used for, which more or less ruled out many two-handed weapons with the exception of spears. This is a realistic approach, but I've noticed that one's choice of weapon feels like a much more significant tactical choice than in 1E. Also, are pure wood/cord weapons like clubs and bows still fragile, due to a lack of refinement/metal banding?
Should it be necessary to introduce more advanced metals, I've considered reskinning the various starmetals. Give steel the properties of adamantine, to emphasize its incredible durability and edge, for instance.
Thoughts?
ARMOR
After toying with tweaking proficiencies, or providing miscellaneous bonuses to people who could wear heavy armor, or slipping everybody 4 Dexterity on the sly, my best idea is to move the goalposts for what constitutes armor.
Light armors might include woad, wearing a bunch of good luck charms (initially dubbed fetish armor until I thought better of it), and woven grass.
Medium armor would be leather, studded leather, and either some amalgamation of bone and shell or the skin of a touch, scaly predator.
Heavy armor would be hide, bone (but bigger bones), and the plates of a tankly creature such as a landshark or dragon.
This would mostly just reskin the preexisting armors, although their categories would be changed. I don't think changing the available armor specializations is likely to break anything, but as I've said analysis isn't my strong suit.
If someone can suggest a better alternative, please share your thoughts.
CRAFTING
First, I think using Automatic Bonus Progression is a must. Reducing the amount of treasure the party needs to survive reduces the scrutiny any modifications to said system recieves, and we're focusing on survival with fragile weapons, it's probably better if the inherent bonuses arise from the hero, not from the flint spear that just shattered on the hide of a Rathal- wyvern. Bonus points if one can still craft, say, +1 Striking weaponry, with the implication that the PCs are among the first generation of people putting random weapons in boxes at the backs of caves for future murder hobos to find.
Second, I have a vague idea about using the Earn a Living feature of Lore to amass a nebulous stock of "trade goods" that can stand in for coin on minor, day to day purchases, assuming one has a community that can provide arrowheads in exchange for all the weaving you just did. This could be represented by having a much less friendly weight formula than the "1000 = 1 bulk" that coins enjoy. Is this too hand-wavey, or conversely too clunky for use? The ideal, to me, would be "just clunky enough to demonstrate the difficulties of a barter economy".
Third, I have an even vaguer idea about using parts harvested from monsters as replacements for the GP used in crafting of magic gear, and a vague memory that a similar system showed up in a 1E book, somewhere. I lack any idea which book, or how it would best adapt to 2E, however.
There's more to playing a pre-agricultural people than just their tools, of course.
MYSTICISM
I'm going into a lot of speculation here, so apologies if I rub anyone the wrong way, but stone age peoples weren't just surrounded by the supernatural, they were *immersed* in it in a way that would baffle many of us, above and beyond what you'd find in a medieval fantasy setting, and that's just speaking about a historical paleolithic culture. Once you add in functional magic and mystical creatures, you get a world where knowing how to get along with local spirits and to avert back luck is as critical as being able to identify poisonous plants.
As such, I think Secrets of Magic's pervasive magic rules are a good place to start, to represent the basic rituals and ceremonies that one would pick up as part of daily life. Can anyone think of anything else to drive this home? I think making a selection of level 0 or 1 rituals be common knowledge is a good start, though I'm unsure what they would be or if there are any pre-existing ones I can crib off of.
A more specific matter is wizards. If writing doesn't exist, it puts anybody using a spellbook in a bit of a tight spot. One of the old 3.5 books, either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane, I believe, had suggestions for alternate spellbooks, which I plan to take a look at once I dig it out of my closet, but any additional insights would be welcome. For instance, I dimly remember the idea of recording your spells as a series of paintings or standing stones, but what sort of incentives might balance having your spellbook be a series of cave paintings back home?
Come to think of it, alchemists are in a tight spot, too.
Beyond that, I'm not sure what else might be different or could be emphasized for the benefit of the setting. Clerics are more likely to worship local powerful entities or phenomena, I suppose (or gods that present themselves as such, at least.)
My thanks to anybody who waded through all that; I look forward to your criticisms and suggestions! If you think I've missed something critical about adapting the rules or the underlying assumptions in such a game, please, let me know.
I don't really want to introduce extra fumbles and failures into the game, but if you really want the flavour that is your choice. You are making significant customizations here.
You are trying to rebalance the game with inferior equipment. That does effect the balance between martials and casters.
Personally I'd just remove some parts of the base game because they don't suit the setting. You could just get rid of about half the equipment in the book and maybe ban some class options. As long as the players are aware of it up front I think it would work well. I really do like a strong theme for a game
This sounds more like a topic to explore in homebrew.
I don't really want to introduce extra fumbles and failures into the game, but if you really want the flavour that is your choice. You are making significant customizations here.
You are trying to rebalance the game with inferior equipment. That does effect the balance between martials and casters.
Personally I'd just remove some parts of the base game because they don't suit the setting. You could just get rid of about half the equipment in the book and maybe ban some class options. As long as the players are aware of it up front I think it would work well. I really do like a strong theme for a game
I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm leery of the idea about just stripping out a bunch of stuff from the game, but I agree that tinkering with the weapons may be nothing but a path to madness.
Apologies if this should go in homebrew. It's been a while since I posted anything substantial on these boards, and I thought that was for showing off finished work. Is there a guide somewhere to what's allowed where that I can consult in the future beforehand?
In PF2, hit points are abstractions, balance > "magic", and much more of it could be reskinned to suit a primitive setting without mechanical alteration (except of course there'd little to be acquired from markets).
For example, a generic weapon could be wood, a Striking weapon could be sharp/stone/hefty, etc., add on obsidian, meteoric metal, and so forth until you cover up to one's intended max level. That said, Automatic Bonus Progression likely would work best, especially if you do want weapons breaking though I can't advise weapons breaking unless immediate solutions are available (such as picking up a stone and having it be somewhat powerful due to ABP).
Magic potions could come from magic fountains, special herbs, or the blood of certain beasts. Other enhancement could come from wearing totems, doing rituals (or actual Rituals perhaps), etc. There's tons of folklore to draw upon to add normal PF2 mechanical bonuses for balance. And in setting it doesn't need to be outright magical, as long as "eating a lion's heart" works.
Another way to do this is to make gold abstract too. Instead of a physical currency, it becomes a "power mechanic", just rename it into something appropriate to a caveman setting. Award "gold" as usual, but in the form of these points. Players (not the PCs themselves) then apply them to their PC in the form of nonexistent equipment, i.e. they might spend it to upgrade their weapon or buy some of that lion's blood mentioned above (though that could be a direct treasure from killing a lion of course).
As for a primitive setting, that sounds potentially epic, unless it leads to hamstringing PCs (which a fault that seems to be lacking in the genre examples given).
Oh, and I'd up the normal level of NPCs (and their equipment, even if virtual), as in that genre they're supposed to be able to team up and kill high CR creatures, some which could wipe out Golarion villages.
I agree with the idea that you should just limit the options available rather than try to tweak and rebalance them. Just tell people to play hide wearing barbarians with great clubs instead of katana wielding fighters in full plate, druids instead of clerics, and witches instead of wizards. The list of classes I'd probably allow would be:
Barbarian (duh)
Ranger (duh)
Druid (duh)
Witch (flexible caster, good flavor fit)
Sorcerer (But probably limiting bloodlines)
Monk (unarmed and unarmored is perfect)
Bard (maybe)
Oracle (solid shaman stand in.)
Summoner (god caller baby)
Psychic (psychic cavemen are fun)
Thaumaturge (Trinkets, symbolism, and esoterica makes for a good medicine man vibe.)
I believe Mark Seifter wrote some pretty solid monster parts harvesting rules in Battlezoo. You should check that out.
Generally, I'd try to do away with currency entirely rather than try to figure out weird new good systems. Throw out the formula rules while you're at it, and just let players craft appropriate gear based on their level while using ABP. You can put a gold value on rae materials they find instead.
Limiting some options that don't fit makes sense and won't hurt game balance too bad, but I don't really see any sense in banning clerics, champions, rogues, fighters, bards, or whatever.
You want to nudge people away from swords and stuff, but that won't be a huge balance issue. Heavy armor turned into something you craft out of really tough monster hides is a cool idea, imo.
Most things, besides obvious stuff like gunslingers and figuring out an alternative for wizards, will work mostly okay out of the box though.
Is this for the role playing game or for the adventure card game?
Limiting some options that don't fit makes sense and won't hurt game balance too bad, but I don't really see any sense in banning clerics, champions, rogues, fighters, bards, or whatever.
You want to nudge people away from swords and stuff, but that won't be a huge balance issue. Heavy armor turned into something you craft out of really tough monster hides is a cool idea, imo.
Most things, besides obvious stuff like gunslingers and figuring out an alternative for wizards, will work mostly okay out of the box though.
Depending on how you feel about relfavoring, you can include any of those things, sure. I'm not a huge fan of reskinning myself, but that's just a personal preference.
Champions and clerics would feel a wee bit anachronistic to me, being rooted anethema and concepts of morality that don't really seem to fit the vibe. I can't really imagine what lawful would look like in this setting, but maybe that's a failure on my part.
I'm wary of rogues and swashbucklers because finesse weapons seem like they'd be limited. You'd have stone knives/short swords, and not a ton else. Again, stuff can be reflavored, if you're into that.
A lot of it just doesn't feel genre appropriate to me on a gut level, though. The martial classes I left off use modern sensibilities of fighting that would just feel off to me in the stone age.
Castilliano, I intend to nab most of what you said there. "As you drink the fiery blood of the elemental lion, you feel a sleeping fire take root in your weapons, waiting to be called out.", etc. And if one doesn't like that, visit the tribal shaman, smoke some things, eat some eyeballs, and see what the spirits will offer you in exchange! (I have a feeling it's going to come out to 250 gp whatever it is.) I want to develop a few aspects of the idea a bit further, but it seems a promising possibility.
Captain Morgan, I just don't see my players getting excited about a game if I open it with forbidding a laundry list of classes. I think I can swing the idea of champions and clerics if I present the anathema as taboos, instead. I tend to do my own pantheons, anyways, so I just have to make them seem a little alien. Certain classes would be rarer, certainly, but I can see a rogue as someone who figured out how to make up for their lack of brawn with tricks and cunning, and there are enough accounts of (often fairly stylized, granted) conflicts among pre-agricultural civilizations that I don't think the concept of warfare would be completely alien, so that gives fighters an opening.
I think lawful in a prehistoric setting would manifest as a great reverence for tradition, along with prioritizing the community over the individual. I think both lawful and chaotic would come off as a bit muted, in any case; there's not a whole lot for the lawful to uphold or for chaotic to rebel against.
Thanks for pointing me at Battlezoo, I'll have to take a look.
Squiggit, I'm a big fan of Monster Hunter (although that's not what I'm trying to create here), so wearing a suit made from a dragon seemed a reasonable way to justify heavy armor. I just need to stay strong and not let them talk me into adding bowgunners!
Final query before I get out of everybody's hair. I've decided to drop pervasive magic and instead use free archetype, choosing from a list of "folk magic", as it were. Talisman Dabbler, Herbalist, Ritualist... can anybody think of other good candidates?
Is this for the role playing game or for the adventure card game?
The RPG. They moved my post from the wrong section to a different, equally wrong section. Thanks for pointing that out to me, I never would have noticed in my current state. I'll prod them about it.
I would leave pretty much everything the same, just removing the stuff that does not fit your setting.
There can still be heavy armor made of bone, carapace, dragonhide/dragonscale, just to name a few... you could adjust the hardness and HP of pretty much any existing armor to match that of the new material used.
I would use the regular rules for primative weapons. Let them become broken on a critical fumble... it makes having a backup weapon necessary, it makes tracking the action economy to switch weapons necessary, it makes improvised weapons more attractive (which should be a huge part of your setting), it makes natural weapons more attractive (which should be a huge part of your setting), it makes having the proper skills to fix your own equipment necessary... it's all good. You could even modify the hardness and HP of weapons normally made of metal to match that of bone or whatever... sharpening a dinosaur's shoulder blade to make a Greatsword or the head of a Butchering Axe seems perfectly reasonable. The Orc HornBow is specifically made from the horns of great beasts, so I am pretty sure bows are fine as that are. Probably crossbows, too... they are already hard enough to make good, it helps no one by limiting crossbows any further.
I would leave crafting as it is. And just call GP seashells, or bottlecaps, or whatever.
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Seems like this belongs in the PF2 Homebrew forum rather than the PF1 Homebrew.
As noted by previous posters, only having 'inadequate' equipment available tends to shift the balance of power significantly: Casters, Pet builds, shape-shifters, and unarmed strike builds basically maintain their existing power while traditional 'armor and weapon' users will tend to perform worse than in a 'normal' campaign.
Druids should be a popular choice (Spells, Animal Companion, and Wildshape, plus most of their anathema are irrelevant in such a setting).
Monks should also be popular (unarmed strikes, unarmored proficiency)
Rangers might work well (Animal Companion is good, but they are otherwise stuck with crude weapons)
Animal Instinct Barbarians seem like a solid choice as well.
Any of the 'back of the party' casters will probably work fine.
Animal Trainer, Beastmaster, and Martial Artist archetypes are likely to be popular...