So this build, or idea, has been tossed around... I've seen it brought up several times... and I want to know what build really does it best.
We have both of the usual cheater traits to apply metamagic to a select spell... in this case, probably Touch of Gracelessness. And probably Calcify Touch as our Perferred Spell. But outside of your usual Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats, I don't know what really makes a good "Calcifier".
What class really brings the pain for this?
I was toying with Magus, even the Eldritch Archer archetype, but I really don't know where to really start [or which way to go]. Kinda thinking about seeing if I can do anything with Eldritch Scoundrel/Arcane Trickster... something about a Sneak Attack "Calcifier" sounds like an exceptionally fun take on the idea.
Suggestions?
linking what you talk about help others answer.
I had no idea what spell you were referring to. and it didn't help searching it when you named it wrong (the archive's search is rigid and i had to search 'touch' in all the spells to find this). i think you meant the Calcific Touch ?
if you did then:
1. as a 4th level spell (that is not on the magus spell list) that can only be used once per round but have the dex damage done regardless of the save, i think the best way to utilize this is with some kind of reaching spell touch ability and done by a familiar (or as a magical trap) instead of the main caster. a caster who can cast 4th level spells should have better things to do in combat then try and touch an enemy for 1d4 dex damage each round (if he's not a magus).
2. sneak attack won't help with this. as i explained in a different thread sneak attack is only for hit point damage or non lethal damage.
if it would work with any 'damage' even ability damage there would have been no need for a further ruling that it also work with non lethal damage and to call out that the non lethal is " instead of lethal damage".
3. if not with trap or familiar, the best way to use this i think would be a bloodrager who specialize with grappling. (it is still 4th level spell for them so will be a 13th level bloodrager minimum, unless using a scroll etc).
cast the spell before he start to grapple (i think some bloodrager bloodline or archtype let them cast a spell freely when they enter rage) and then each round he make a grapple it also discharge the spell, dealing dex damage and maybe slowing the target. (touch spells discharge with any touch, grapple would work)
The only mention of an actual "Calcifier" [by that name] is a mention in the Magus guide... something something Whirling Calcifier something something... I'm guessing it's in referrence to a whip, or perhaps a Bladed Scarf and the Magus archetype that goes with it. I don't actually know, as I have not read the entire thread that goes with the guide.
The build that finally stuck in my head was mentioned in some Dragon-slayer thread not too long ago... it used an Elf Transmutation Wizard, Empower and Reach metamagics, Perferred Spell [Calcific Touch], and opened with Touch of Gracelessness. It was a real eye-opener, for me. And now I want to see more of this, or what can be done with the general concept.
Not linking the spells, and not naming them correctly to begin with, is absolutely my bad.
to be fair the explanation about the sneak attack not working with ability damage might not hold for other effects that increase damage of spells, and is not raw in some other cases.
So while sneaking this spell won't hold, a blood havoc, orc bloodlined sorcerer would be able to relay on RAW and deal 1d4+2 points of dex damage before metamagic empower etc comes into place. (if the gm doesn't mind it too much)
and while casting the spell with metamagic takes him a full round action the reach metamagic doesn't say it limit the attacks to only one shot so he can keep trying a ranged touch attack on later rounds as standard actions.
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There isn't a class that really "brings the pain" for calcific touch. Since all it does is deliver 1d4 points of dex damage a maximum of once per round, what you're really looking for is easy ways to use metamagic with it. And it's a 4th-level spell, so it won't be coming online for a long time. I'll offer you two options that might be slightly better than others.
1) A dwarf magus (yes, dwarf) - Comes online at 10th level.
*6th-level arcana - Empowered Magic (This is why you want a dwarf. Once you have this arcana you can start taking the alternate FCB and can use it twice per day at 11th level.)
*10th-level - retrain your 3rd or 9th-level arcana into Spell Blending and grab calcific touch.
*12th-level arcana - Maximized Magic (and start taking the alternate FCB).
Archetype choice is up to you, depending on what else you want your character to do.
2) A wizard with the Prophecy focused Arcane School - Comes online at 8th level.
*The "In Accordance with the Prophecy" power lets you empower your spell in exchange for the risk of it totally fizzling.
Beware of GM dislike for the abilty, in other words.
So while sneaking this spell won't hold, a blood havoc, orc bloodlined sorcerer would be able to relay on RAW and deal 1d4+2 points of dex damage before metamagic empower etc comes into place. (if the gm doesn't mind it too much)
That doesn't work.
Weapon Specialization: Can you take Weapon Specialization (ray) or Improved Critical (ray) as feats? How about Weapon Specialization (bomb) or Improved Critical (bomb)?
All four of those are valid choices.
Note that Weapon Specialization (ray) only adds to hit point damage caused by a ray attack that would normally deal hit point damage; it doesn't increase ability score damage or drain (such as the Dexterity drain from polar ray), penalties to ability scores (such as from ray of enfeeblement) or drain, negative levels (such as from enervation), or other damage or penalties from rays.
(bolding in original)
An Eldritch Archer Magus could use the Extra Arcana feat at level 13 to pick up Spell Blending to grab both Touch of Gracelessness and Calcific Touch... both of which could be shot from a bow, using the bow's range instead of the spell's range.
I was looking at Bloodrager, since they have both the aforementioned spells on their list... but you have very little wiggle room for metamagics as a 4th-level caster.
The whole Sneak Attack/Arcane Trickster thing was more just a conceptual thing... being touched by something unseen, and that touch having the possibility of permenantly petrifying you... just seems wicked. It's probably pretty easy to CdG a petrified target, and CdG gets automatic Sneak Attack, right? Maybe not as classy as a Slumber Witch, but there's something about this concept that I think is worth exploring... even if Sneak Attack does not actively contribute to, or increase the ability damage of, those particular spells.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Elf Transmutation Wizard, Empower and Reach metamagics, Perferred Spell [Calcific Touch], and opened with Touch of Gracelessness. It was a real eye-opener, for me.
I'm curious how this is an eye-opener? It seems to me that a Reach Empowered Touch of Graceless against a dragon (that is very likely to make its fortitude save) would deal about 6 dexterity damage, so the dragon gets -3 to armor class and reflex saves? I may be missing something but that doesn't strike me as very impressive for a 4th-level spell slot.
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An Eldritch Archer Magus could use the Extra Arcana feat at level 13 to pick up Spell Blending to grab both Touch of Gracelessness and Calcific Touch... both of which could be shot from a bow, using the bow's range instead of the spell's range.
Eldritch Archer works, just not particularly well. You don’t get to use the bow’s range.
At 2nd level, whenever an eldritch archer casts a spell that calls for a ranged attack, she can deliver the spell through a ranged weapon she wields as part of a ranged attack… The attack does not increase the spell’s range.
Has to require a ranged attack and doesn’t increase the range. So it would have to be a Reach calcific touch to be used. And then it’s just within close range for one level bump.
The bigger problem is that you are losing the thing that makes calcific touch a mid-level spell: Attacks each round.
If the spell can normally affect multiple targets, only a single missile, ray, or effect accompanies each attack; if the spell allows multiple attacks and the eldritch archer can make additional ranged attacks as part of a full-round action with spell combat, one additional ray, missile, or effect from the spell accompanies each subsequent ranged attack the eldritch archer makes in the same round until all attacks allowed by the spell are made. Unused missiles, rays, or effects remaining at the end of the eldritch archer’s turn are wasted.
There’s a reasonable argument to be made that the Ranged Spellstrike text overrides the “once per round” text of the spell. However what’s definitely true is that “unused effects remaining at the end of the eldritch archer’s turn are wasted.” A 13th level EA can - if hasted and Rapid Shotting - get off 5 shots (counting the free Spellstrike). Not insignificant but you waste 8 uses of the spell.
A 13th level Eldritch Archer has access to both Reach Spellstrike and Distant Spellstrike... so they absolutely could use the range of their bow instead of the range of the spell.
Touch of Gracelessness is just to see if it sticks. Hey, this MIGHT work... if it does, the dragon's already low Dex is even lower... now, Calcific Touch has to do less Dex damage before it permenantly petrifies the target. Plus, Touch of Gracelessness lowers fly maneuverability, so the already poor flying dragon becomes even worse... possibly even failing to get away. Again, it's just something to open up with, just to see if it actually works. If it does, your Calcify Touch will be more effective, with fewer applications.
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A 13th level Eldritch Archer has access to both Reach Spellstrike and Distant Spellstrike... so they absolutely could use the range of their bow instead of the range of the spell.
That does work, I was not primed to be thinking of using arcana for range. Still has the "lost uses" problem, though.
Yes, you have to be 9th level - which is a mitigating factor. But the fact that it can only be taken by someone with Ranged Spellstrike (myrmidarch or eldritch archer, in other words) is NOT a mitigating factor. It's something REALLY good for those two particular archetypes while other archetypes lack an equivalent.
Most AP's go past level 10-13, so this is not necessarily just theorycrafting.
I don't see the problem with Eldritch Archer or Reach Spellstrike or Distant Spellstrike, but that is an entire different discussion. Who cares if other Magi don't have anything equal? If you want it, be what has it. They are very good Arcana for the select archetypes that can access them... almost like it's the entire freaking point. Again, if you want access to those cool toys, be one of those archetypes... it's that easy. It's not like Reach Spellstrike does any good for any other Magus anyways. Reach Arcana is probably just fine for a Magus who uses a Rapier... 1/day free Reach metamagic is probably fine for someone not specialized in delivering touch spells with a bow. I apparently have a problem with people having a problem. Lol. It's all irrelevant to this discussion, though.
The lost uses thing is not a thing. Nobody freaking cares how many charges you have left if you permenantly petrify your target. Literally a non-factor...
Thank you for the "bloatmage, thassilonian, or curse specialist" suggestion(s). To be completely honest, I am actually looking for creative builds to use as an enemy NPC... I figured this would be a fun trick to use against the party, not as a member of it. Lol.
That "slow burn" is what I'm after... I understand that dazing fireballs are much more effective, but a nuke is over before you even have time to process you just lost your character. No, I don't want to rip the bandaid off fast. I want to watch them squirm. Well, at least until they are petrified. Lol.
see ** spoiler omitted **
Without ever playing that, I don't know how said Neddrick Istavarti really fits... unless Neddrick Istavarti is the "Whirling Calcifier" mentioned in the Magus guide. But even that wouldn't make sense when one looks at Neddrick's prepared spells.
Is there something I am missing about Neddrick Istavarti that makes him especially fitting as the "Calcifier".
When I was playing around with making a Magus, one of the builds I was contemplating was an Eldritch Scion VMQ Order of the Blossom Cavalier. I was toying around with the idea of combining Calcific Touch, Greater Invisibility, and Sense Vitals to deliver solid damage (an additional 5d6 per attack, potentially) on top of working towards petrifying an opponent. I hate building a character on the basis of potential enemy averages, but at 10th level—when my Scion could have all those spells—the typical monster has a Dexterity score of 16. That means 7-8 attacks to achieve this result, which would take three rounds on average. By that point, though, you’ve already inflicted more than the average HP for a CR 10 creature… so Calcific Touch really only shone in my eyes as a means to kill creatures immune to precision damage.
My only real interest in using Magus is as an Eldritch Archer. And I have very little interest in whips, regardless of how well a Magus may be able to use them. But something about petrifying arrows is just cool... the big dumb fighter advancing towards the enemy archer, each arrow he takes slows him and slowly petrifies him, until finally his foot falls frozen, his advance ends as well as his life...
As for the amount of attacks it takes to effectively petrify your target... an Empowered Touch of Gracelessness is averaging, what, -10 Dex on a failed save? Still a -5 Dex on a successful save? From there, you should have a much easier time chipping away at what's left of their Dexterity with Empowered Calcific Touch... which should be doing about 3 Dex damage on average.
Obviously you use such tactics on targets with lower Dex... even better if they have poor Fort saves, as well. And as an enemy NPC, there is less worry about overcoming Spell Resistance, given that SR is relatively rare in party members.
So, being a Human means you could obviously spend your bonus feat on Spell Focus Transmutation. Elves can start with Spell Focus Transmutation by trading Keen Senses for Illustrious Urbanite. Gnomes can get a +1 to the DC's of Transmutation spells they cast by trading Gnome Magic for Utilitarian Magic, but would still need/want to spend a feat on Spell Focus Transmutation. Of these choices, Elf stands out for having that built-in +2 to overcome Spell Resistance.
I think a Universalist Wizard could do pretty well, actually. Between the Metamagic Mastery school power, and the Preferred Spell feat... you should be able to prepare your ToG/Calcific Touch spells with Empowered, and modify them with +1/+2/+3 Reach metamagics on the fly to hit whatever range you might need.
Would the feat Tenacious Transmutations be needed for this build, at all? Are we really worried that much about people removing or dispelling these?
...
So while sneaking this spell won't hold, a blood havoc, orc bloodlined sorcerer would be able to relay on RAW and deal 1d4+2 points of dex damage before metamagic empower etc comes into place. (if the gm doesn't mind it too much)That doesn't work....
i never said anything about weapon Specialization (which as the name kinda call is for weapons. that lead too much into hit point damage).
i was talking about blood havoc and the orc bloodline (look back in my post if you want the links) both of which talk about spells that deal damage. They never once talk about hit point damage specifically. and since spells, unlike weapons, are not only focused (or mostly focused) on dealing hit point damage -RAW the word damage CAN be used for ability damage as well. (and as i also said this will need a consenting GM as the RAI is obviously talking about hit point when mentioning damage. as i pointed in my other post i linked there)|
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They all refer simply to damage; none say anything about "hit points."
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
Whenever you cast a bloodrager or sorcerer spell that deals damage, add 1 point of damage per die rolled.
I think you're arguing "because they didn't make FAQs specifically about orc bloodline and blood havoc, that means they can affect abilities that don't deal hit point damage."
Of course any GM can change anything they want to about the rules.
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The spell Cure Light Wounds also cures "damage" and doesn't specify whether this is about hit point damage or ability damage or both.
...overall it strikes me as pretty obvious that NO spell or effect that affects "damage" also works on "ability score damage" unless it explicitly says so. "But the rules don't say I can't" is not a good argument in this case.
(edit) However, ability damage is expliclty doubled on a crit, meaning the scimitar Magus is a natural fit for a Graceless / Calcific build.