Enlarge / reduce effect on CONTENTS of bag of holding

[morenu]

OK, I have a Ranger in our group that wants to carry Large arrows in an Efficient Quiver (or bag of holding), cast enlarge then shoot the originally Large arrows. and also would casting gravity bow after that then mage the arrows huge?

he wants to not have to drop the large arrows before/after casting enlarge.

[Belafon]

I get his logic. The large arrows are in an extradimensional space, so they wouldn’t be affected by the enlarge person. And (naturally) large arrows would not shrink back after leaving the bow, so he would do more damage.

However, I would say “no.” Because following this reasoning creates a “gotcha” for players who haven’t gamed it out. What happens when your average player gets enlarged? He pulls an arrow out of his efficient quiver - like always - only to find it hasn’t grown with him and he can’t fire his bow.

[Azothath]

Efficient Quiver 1800GP.
Bag of Holding 2500-10000GP.

Both magical objects store objects in a non-dimensional space and does not shrink them. So you have the wrong magical effect there.

The Efficient Quiver lists what it can hold, number for a given size & shape. This means it is up to your GM and the size & shape of the object. Compartment 1) 60 arrow(ammo (varies)P{Med} 3/20lb) 60*, 8lb total; 2) 18 javelin(simple rng wpn (1d6,20*2)P{Med} 2lb), 36lb total; and 3) 6 spear(simple two-hand melee & thrown wpn (1d8,20*3)P{Med} 6lb) or longbow(two-hand rng wpn (1d8, 20*3)P{Med} 3lb) for 18lb total.

Arrows for a large creature will go up one size category. For a longbow arrow that's 1d8 --> 2d6, see tiny & large weapon damage. Based on weight, weight doubles for Med->Lrg, so an arrow should go to 6/20lb or 6@2lb. IMO based on damage you'd get the 3rd compartment, on weight the 2nd.

I can see Belefon's logic and I'd agree that the spell effect is going to incur (at best) an inappropriate sized weapon penalty of -2 attack if the items in your quiver are affected (when you pull them out - another GM decision but clearer in RAW and sad for Enlarge Person users) and an initially large bow may be required which likely won't fit in the quiver.

You will have to discuss this with your home game or table GM before the game as it's not clear which process will work (but one or more will just penalties(if any) and details). If it takes 2 rounds to pull this off it might not be worth the effort to begin at the start of combat just based on action economy and damage per round at your rate of fire.

In summary IMO dropping a large bow and large arrows is the simplest solution and very likely to work across tables. The large bow won't fit in the quiver. A PC can store 6 large longbow arrows or 18 large shortbow arrows in the efficient quiver. If the Med bow is stored in the quiver when the spell effect is cast then it remains Med sized (-2 inapp wpn to hit) if out it will enlarge to Lrg.

[Azothath]

For some GMs a Resizing ranged weapon quality at 4000GP may be needed to make this work seamlessly (less conditions).

[Azothath]

Gravity Bow T:1 (personal) is cast on the bow you are holding. It does not increase the actual size of the ammo when fired just the damage dealt (styled as a temporary effective size increase just before it hits). This way it doesn't futz with inappropriate sized weapons or ammo.
It can be cast before or after Enlarge Person with the same effect (+1 cat size increase to ranged weapon damage) HOWEVER there is an FAQ on effective size stacking that limits effective size increase effects to the greatest one. So under some conditions only one will be effective (with an Enlarged Bow and Gravity Bow you only get one effect).
So we are back to a person under Enlarge Person using an unaffected Large bow with Large ammo (appropriately sized) working with Gravity Bow for huge damage. Otherwise it's the usual Enlarge Person with an enlarged bow & ammo doing Large damage via Gravity Bow (as the ammo shrinks after firing).
It'd be simpler to just put a Huge sized bow and ammo on a pack mule and take the -2 to hit when using those under Enlarge Person.

[Temperans]

If you use enlarge then all of the equipment on you also increases in size while in your possession. If you have large arrow ammunition, they will become huge arrow ammunition and so forth. So, shooting those arrows will always give a -2 penalty to hit.

Now because of how enlarge only affects items in your possession as soon as the arrow leaves your grasp it decreases in size. So, the huge size arrow would become large and deal less damage. In effect this whole gimmick is making it so that you suffer a -3 to hit in exchange for on average +1 damage. Is that really worth it? Who knows, but it sure is an interesting idea.

A much better option is getting large arrows, reduce person, and gravity bow. That would give you a -1 to hit but on average +2 to damage, on average about the same as in tier of Deadly Aim.

[vhok]

items in an extradimensional space(any extradimensional space) are not in your possession and would not change size with you, the bag/quiver would get bigger but at the same time the amount they hold does not change because the space inside is unaffected by your spell. large/small bag/quivers hold the same amount of arrows or anything else. so obviously the items inside do not enlarge/reduce with you.

long story short yeah it would work if you carry large arrows around in your extradimensional space for enlarge.

1 last thing is, if people are saying the items inside a bag of holding enlarge with you then does everyone's bags explode anytime they enlarge person because they are now too full?

[Temperans]

Yes items in extradimensional spaces don't change in size because they are in a different plane at the time of casting.

As far as regular bag/quivers that don't have extra/nondimensional spaces, the size of the content does in fact increase with you. Size changing magic does not change the number of objects just the weight and volume: So a medium quiver with 20 medium arrows that becomes large now has 20 large arrows.

The trick with Efficient Quivers is that you can store arrows of varying size without them getting affected by enlarge/reduce. So the 20 large arrows in your Efficient Quiver would remain large arrows even after you shoot, you would keep the increased damage and would not receive the wrong size penalty.

[Azothath]

Temperans wrote:

...

The trick with Efficient Quivers is that you can store arrows of varying size without them getting affected by enlarge/reduce. So the 20 large arrows in your Efficient Quiver would remain large arrows even after you shoot, you would keep the increased damage and would not receive the wrong size penalty.

Large sized arrows would not fit in the eff quiver's first area(arrows) as they are no longer (med proj wpn) arrow sized objects. That's going to cut down on the number you can store right away to 18 and/or 6. It is a GM call as to which area they can fit at that point. Refer to my first post above.