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Something not being feasible within the current framework of PF2 sounds like a really good argument for new options to be published to accomodate them.
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I don't know guys, I think Japaneese Spiderman is probably doable with the current rules as long as you're a bit creative.
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But what is a shinobi other than a Minkaian Rogue?The ninja class was distinctly more magical than the rogue can ever really be,
Why is that exactly? Rogues are essentially magical at high levels already, and the individual ki powers of the ninja seem like they could just be new class feats. You can also do a lot of them already through multiclassing to snag things like ki rush, spider climb, or invisibility.
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Why is that exactly?
I mean, because that's the way someone built the classes. Don't really get the question.
Rogues are essentially magical at high levels already
One advantage of a new class is that you can start turning concepts on at lower levels. Waiting until high levels to flesh out your magical capabilities is deeply unsatisfying for bringing together a concept.
Multiclassing is neat, but it just does not do a good job replicating inherently magical characters because of how slow it is.
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We are all aware that Rogues have a racket that will give them multiclass spellcasting from level 1, right? I understand that this may not be what exactly what people are asking for with more 'magical' abilities, but until we start defining what precise movesets we expect to see when we talk about a 'magical ninja', I feel it's worth pointing out that a ninja who can turn invisible, summon clouds of mist or illusory duplicates, and exert control over elemental forces (including casting a cone of flame, for Naruto fans out there) are all possible with Eldritch Trickster and any Arcane caster depending on your preference of Int or Cha for key ability (and if you're willing to flex on the elemental powers, you have your pick of Occult casters, too). It's not even a particular stretch of theme given that you can flavour your somatic components as kuji-in borrowed from studying shugendo.
I mean, I'm not here to say "you can make it up with an archetype so we don't need a class*" but I still feel it bears noting that magical ninjas throwing hand signs to create illusions and elemental effects is something you can do with APG Rogue, even if technically that racket borrows multiclass rules to get there. Rogues have magic at low levels, too, and it's completely thematically appropriate to legendary ninja powers. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Aside from that, I don't see any conflict with, say, a new Rogue feat that lets them cast the ninja's Vanish trick for 1 action as a focus spell or something. In 1e so much of the ninja's chassis borrowed from Rogue they called it an "Alternate Class" of Rogue, and later expressed dissatisfaction with this execution.
(*If I were to say we don't need Ninja as a class, it would be for different reasons)
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We are all aware that Rogues have a racket that will give them multiclass spellcasting from level 1, right? I understand that this may not be what exactly what people are asking for with more 'magical' abilities, but until we start defining what precise movesets we expect to see when we talk about a 'magical ninja', I feel it's worth pointing out that a ninja who can turn invisible, summon clouds of mist or illusory duplicates, and exert control over elemental forces (including casting a cone of flame, for Naruto fans out there) are all possible with Eldritch Trickster and any Arcane caster depending on your preference of Int or Cha for key ability (and if you're willing to flex on the elemental powers, you have your pick of Occult casters, too). It's not even a particular stretch of theme given that you can flavour your somatic components as kuji-in borrowed from studying shugendo.
I mean, I'm not here to say "you can make it up with an archetype so we don't need a class*" but I still feel it bears noting that magical ninjas throwing hand signs to create illusions and elemental effects is something you can do with APG Rogue, even if technically that racket borrows multiclass rules to get there. Rogues have magic at low levels, too, and it's completely thematically appropriate to legendary ninja powers. Just wanted to throw that out there.
Aside from that, I don't see any conflict with, say, a new Rogue feat that lets them cast the ninja's Vanish trick for 1 action as a focus spell or something. In 1e so much of the ninja's chassis borrowed from Rogue they called it an "Alternate Class" of Rogue, and later expressed dissatisfaction with this execution.
(*If I were to say we don't need Ninja as a class, it would be for different reasons)
The problem is that the Eldritch Trickster Racket, while it can be flavored to be "ninja magic," cannot reasonably replicate what people want out of "ninja magic," whether it be in the way of Focus Spells being the staple for their power instead of slots (so it's more innate instead of "ritualistic," and based on PF1's portrayal, this makes more sense and is more accurate to what was provided to us in-universe, meaning it's far-and-away not accurate to "anime ninjas"), or because they cannot scale to the level of what we've seen "anime ninjas" do with their magic (which makes sense, because summons are junk and a lot of their spells are designed to be some of the most effective things to do). Spells simply aren't that powerful, even with full spellcasting proficiencies and abilities available; limiting it to a dedication makes it feel even worse than what spellcasters already feel, so it's essentially a compromise of power. As I've stated before, the best way to replicate "anime ninjas" would be to have Dual Class enabled, with one being a Rogue or Monk, and the other being a Full Spellcaster class. They get the best of both worlds, and are far more accurate to what they are portrayed to do in their respective universes.
Though, I'm not saying that PF2 can't change or "retcon" how they would want a Ninja to work in PF2, I'm saying that assuming they would change anything is something that has never been established to us in any form of message or inclination, meaning it's a stretch to say "Yeah, they're just going to go a completely different direction for this class because [unestablished reasons]." It's far safer to take the conservative approach to things until we get information or clarifications indicating otherwise, because there is currently more evidence to promote this based on previous precedent than there is evidence to promote a change in said portrayal.
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I feel kinda weird though when I'm one who specifically called out wanting anime ninjas and I feel bit ignored on that what I expect is actually pretty down to earth x'D To get bit better feeling of what I mean, try to search from youtube cultural videos about both actual ninja abilities and actual pre pop culture legends or videos rating how "ninja" fictional ninjas actually are.
But yeah this is basically minimum of what I would expect you to need to "feel" like japanese pop culture ninja:
Easy access to short term "invisibility". Not even necessarily level 4 invisibility or even an illusion. What you basically need is either ability that gives you undetected condition while you move to cover and do hide action or for even more memetic version, 2e version of 1e "Hide in plain sight" ability so you can attempt to hide even without cover while being observed by another creature.
Related to above, some variant of smoke bomb vanish shenanigans would be nice. "Realistic" use of this ability is basically just "use greater smokestick, have blind fight, use concealed status for hide checks", but what I call "anime" version is basically either straight up turning invisible or short range teleport to cover :p (aka, its variant of the whole "being able to move to cover to hide and make enemy lose track of your location" thing)
Either way, after that is the whole pokemon double team or as its known in japan "kage bunshin" ;P Easiest way to do the whole bunshin thing is just mirror image, though that's bit boring.
I'd say that if mechanics wanted to either replicate flavor of "you move so fast that you leave after images" or do even more "anime" version, there are two ways to do it. Option a) step one is replicating the various abilities(from both 1e and 2e) where the illusionary versions you create are able to move to different spaces making it confusing for enemy which one is real. step two for even more over the top version is replicating positive effect of Bilocation spell without the downside, aka allowing you to make strikes even from squares of the illusions but if illusions are attacked they just vanish.
option b on otherhand would be funnier: Since you are actually just moving super fast, instead of creating mirror images, you designate which spaces you are occupying with your after images and where you are actually currently located :p So can't move to those squares without first confirming they aren't occupied, but can't hit you either until they figure out your actual location.
Third thing you need is ability to do substitution. You know that thing where in anime ninja switches place with log or mannequin? It honestly is pretty simple thing, all you need to do is reaction where you can avoid attack by switching place with large unattended object of like 5-10 feet from you. Best ninjas don't use logs or dolls, they use tables ;P
Note that I wouldn't give ninja shapeshifting ability, I'd instead just make them to be able to disguise themselves with normal limits removed (so you can somehow disguise yourself as person with extreme height differences). I don't know if its obvious, but my preferred ninja flavor is "so good at something they are basically supernatural" rather than straight up magic arts.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that is it for most part. "Running across water" is something you can already do with skill feats and water walking isn't hard spell to get access to, so I'd honestly prefer them to get access to their swamp shoes ;P
Now the whole elemental wizard magic thing and animal summons? Cool, but honestly not very ninja. Well elemental stuff I mean, admittedly animals messengers and spies work for ninja. I do consider "ability to summon animal minions" nice bonus, but optional and even then you'd only need access to mundane animal summons, maybe I can accept giant versions though. But yeah the elemental power things? Not really fitting for whole stealth assassination thing when you throw fireballs, ninja would use fire to set up distraction not use flamethrower to mow down enemies.
Granted, if you want to do the whole ninja wizard thing the hand signs done for meditation do offer potential for various ideas from that :P But again not what I'm personally really looking for.
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Teeing off some of the Inquisitor chatter in another thread, I kind of see the Ninja occupying a similar niche: that of a rogue-gish instead of a fighter-gish.
That is, there's definitely mechanical room for a class that spend some of its budget getting more out of skills rather than hitting things very hard, in addition to either wave or focus casting. Though my preference would be towards wave, I'm not insistent.
The closest I've gotten to where I'm happy with a "ninja" in 2e has been an Eldritch Trickster that used Shadowcaster as his free archetype. The combination of all that shadow magic and high skill ability fulfilled the fantasy for me, so if a ninja class was printed I would hope it would be built something along those lines. Obviously not as powerful as a base class + archetype, but tapping into the shadow place as a power source seems thematically appropriate and enabling characters that had in other games been a 3.5 beguiler, 4e assassin, or even just a vampire.
I don't know if its obvious, but my preferred ninja flavor is "so good at something they are basically supernatural" rather than straight up magic arts.
I could see something like this. Cantrips that provide level appropriate approximations of high level skill feats seem possible. And I say "cantrips" but non-overflow impulses would do the trick as well.
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Shadow plane for ninjas does sound cool, but wouldn't really fit ninja teachings technically since they are honestly more primal/elemental philosophically than occult. Like thats why they are "elemental techniques", ninjas took inspiration from nature for various tricks (that weren't naruto esque wizardry x'D)
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Well, there's the kineticist for that. In fact, they have several of the abilities you list.
2 things though: one, I'm a little confused on how you will square "elemental philosophy" but explicitly not want elemental magic as it is presented in PF2. Like this:
Now the whole elemental wizard magic thing and animal summons? Cool, but honestly not very ninja. Well elemental stuff I mean, admittedly animals messengers and spies work for ninja. I do consider "ability to summon animal minions" nice bonus, but optional and even then you'd only need access to mundane animal summons, maybe I can accept giant versions though. But yeah the elemental power things? Not really fitting for whole stealth assassination thing when you throw fireballs, ninja would use fire to set up distraction not use flamethrower to mow down enemies.
But leaving that aside, item two, Primal magic specifically has access to shadow spells. Not a lot, but a few. So something that drills down into primal darkness and other shadow spells, along with any access they have to the negative energy plane (which is generally accessed via the shadow plane), would offer an interesting contrast to typical primal magic users, who are primarily linked to the shadow plane's opposite, the First World.
And now having typed all that, I again want shadow plane impulses. Also Ethereal plane impulses with all the force effects that implies.
Hmm. Maybe what I really want is just another impulse class, specically that "Screw You in Particular" impulse class I talked about in another thread, and a ninja might be a way for me to get it.
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God, I loved the 4e Assassin. The Shadow power source deserved better than it got.
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I think the problem with Eldritch Trickster has less to do with themes and more to do with just mechanical weight and how well features come together. A rogue who can cast electric arc and prestidigitation doesn't really feel like a fundamentally sorcerous character whose concept and fighting style seemlessly blends together mystical and martial arts in a distinctly roguish way. It's just a rogue who can cast electric arc.
Archetypes can do a good job supplementing an existing skillset, but the underlying mechanics still need to be there to supplement to create a cohesive concept.
The best and so far only way PF2 has created the latter sorts of character is with specific classes built around it. Like the magus, like the thaumaturge, like the kineticist... even a reflavored inventor might fit the brief better than an eldritch trickster, depending on what kind of specific skillset you were looking for.
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God, I loved the 4e Assassin. The Shadow power source deserved better than it got.
Agreed. Overall, 4e wasn’t my jam, but there were a ton of individual pieces I’m fond of even now, and the shadow power source was one of them.
Actually the entire power source concept in general, but that one in particular.