Elemental Blast Simplification

[Firebeard92]

So, as many have noticed, the elemental blast feature is a bit wordy and basically comes out to them being unarmed attacks that are not actually unarmed attacks. Also, they each have two stat blocks to represent a melee and ranged version. I appreciate the intent of this, but it seems to me that this could be simplified a fair amount.

My first suggestion is to simply use one stat block and have them all be ranged unarmed attacks. Ranged attacks already provoke attacks of opportunity, which the melee versions currently do anyway due to them being Impulse abilities. These are blasts and that makes me think ranged anyway.

Second suggestion, give the blast attacks the Impulse trait as a weapon trait. Meaning it can only be used after Gathering an Element and allows Con to be used for the attack roll. As for other traits; allow earth and water to keep forceful and sweep respectively; add propulsive to all blasts, while bumping earth to a d10 so that it can maintain the damage over the others. Additionally, I think air could be bumped up to a d6 with range dropped to 90' range and be fine.

Third, alter the Flexible Blasts feat to be a feat that grants extra traits to various blasts so that they can expand their utility. Air getting Versatile (electricity), Fire getting Deadly or Scatter, Earth getting Shove or Parry, and Water getting Versatile (cold) or Trip.

This sets Gather Element as an action similar to entering a stance to gain the associated unarmed strike through the Impulse trait. Which they can then use their key ability for on their attack rolls. This also boosts the damage output for the class's primary offensive ability and provides a way to extend the options for the blasts via Flexible Blasts.

[inshal chenet]

This is great!

[NotEspi]

Not to toot my own horn, but...

Suggested something similar here

[Martialmasters]

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

[Firebeard92]

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

[Kekkres]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

[Unicore]

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

[Martialmasters]

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

Though then we'd need a reason for gather to exist as a base feature. Because everything else is feats.

[Firebeard92]

Unicore wrote:

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

How would you feel about an alternative, them being melee with the thrown trait?

[Temperans]

Unicore wrote:

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

How about ranged only as default and elemental blade as the melee option? That would solve the issue os trying to balance two completely different playing styles without affecting much.

A class archetype to make melee default and getting heavy armor and shield use would then be allowed to have more power.

Ideally flexible blasting would become a part of elemental weapon to make it all just 1 feat. Instead of charging people twice.

********************

* P.S. If the issue is thar elemental weapon just given you the choice of 1 weapon. Why not make it like the druid wood weapon? I see no reason why a druid can change their weapon after 10 minutes, but a Kineticist that should literally shape their element however they want can't do it.

[Firebeard92]

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

I like Gather Element as is, but I would like ways to mitigate its action economy. Something like being able to Gather and stride or step. Also, maybe a reaction to Gather Element after an Overflow at the cost of some damage. Also, an ability to Gather Element as a free action when you roll initiative seems like it should have been available.

[Shinigami02]

Martialmasters wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

Though then we'd need a reason for gather to exist as a base feature. Because everything else is feats.

Feats you are guaranteed to have at least one of though, the Gate-granted free feats all have to be Impulse feats, including Universal's floating one.

[Firebeard92]

Temperans wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

How about ranged only as default and elemental blade as the melee option? That would solve the issue os trying to balance two completely different playing styles without affecting much.

A class archetype to make melee default and getting heavy armor and shield use would then be allowed to have more power.

Ideally flexible blasting would become a part of elemental weapon to make it all just 1 feat. Instead of charging people twice.

What would you think about Flexible Blasts and Elemental Weapon combo being a feat that offers melee and options for additional traits for the blasts rather than letting the blast become an actual weapon?

[Martialmasters]

Shinigami02 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

Though then we'd need a reason for gather to exist as a base feature. Because everything else is feats.

Feats you are guaranteed to have at least one of though, the Gate-granted free feats all have to be Impulse feats, including Universal's floating one.

I've built several kineticists with zero overflow

It's really easy

[Firebeard92]

So, further consideration left me with the following ideas.

Let the blasts be ranged unarmed attacks like I mentioned earlier, with Impulse trait to let Con be used for attack rolls after Gather Element. I think propulsive could be added to all of them and be fine.

Alter the stats of the blasts a bit along these lines if not adding propulsive to all.
- Air/ d6 slashing/ agile, air, impulse, range 90’, versatile B
- Earth/ d10 bludgeoning/ earth, forceful, impulse, propulsive, range 20’
- Fire/ d6 fire/ agile, fire, impulse, range 60’
- Water/ d8 bludgeoning/ impulse, sweep, range 30’, water

Flexible Blasts now offers additional traits to elements.
- Air- Shove and Versatile (electricity)
- Earth- Parry and Ranged Trip
- Fire- Deadly d8 and Scatter 5ft (with choice to do so)
- Water- Ranged Trip and Versatile (cold)

Elemental Weapon is now the melee route, changing it to allow only melee weapons but opening it up to 2 handed weapons as well. (Side note: I think that Kineticist should be proficient in medium armor.)

Additionally, I saw it suggested somewhere else, but I think a damage boost depending on your gate selection would help, especially if they don’t get propulsive.
- Dedicated gate gets +2 damage per damage die
- Dual gate gets +1 damage per damage die
- Universal gate gets no bonus damage.

[Shinigami02]

Martialmasters wrote:

Shinigami02 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

Though then we'd need a reason for gather to exist as a base feature. Because everything else is feats.

Feats you are guaranteed to have at least one of though, the Gate-granted free feats all have to be Impulse feats, including Universal's floating one.

I've built several kineticists with zero overflow

It's really easy

Even without Overflow you still have to Gather at least once. If you're not a Dedicated Gate, you still have to Gather every time you change elements. And when Gathered it still uses your hand, so it still has a mechanical effect. Even with Blasts losing the Impulse trait the only way to actually never have any impact from Gather ever is if you never take a single Impulse, but you will always have at least 1 Impulse because they're mandatory.

And if you have a build that doesn't use a single Overflow the only difference this would actually make is now you can Strike with a 0-hand attack, because Gather is the part of Blasting that actually uses a hand.

[Martialmasters]

Shinigami02 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Shinigami02 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

Though then we'd need a reason for gather to exist as a base feature. Because everything else is feats.

Feats you are guaranteed to have at least one of though, the Gate-granted free feats all have to be Impulse feats, including Universal's floating one.

I've built several kineticists with zero overflow

It's really easy

Even without Overflow you still have to Gather at least once. If you're not a Dedicated Gate, you still have to Gather every time you change elements. And when Gathered it still uses your hand, so it still has a mechanical effect. Even with Blasts losing the Impulse trait the only way to actually never have any impact from Gather ever is if you never take a single Impulse, but you will always have at least 1 Impulse because they're mandatory.

And if you have a build that doesn't use a single Overflow the only difference this would actually make is now you can Strike with a 0-hand attack, because Gather is the part of Blasting that actually uses a hand.

Gather is basically draw weapon, it's get easy to start almost every combat with it drawn already as there is no time limitation on it.

Dual gate has cycle blast so can fire, change element and do something else.

I'm not seeing the issue even after reading your post twice

[aobst128]

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

[Martialmasters]

aobst128 wrote:

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

While I'd like to balance both. They absolutely need to balance towards the class itself before the dedications.

Imo if you get blast's out of the gate at level 1. They need a reduction in power at least until level ten.

And personally, I'm in favor of not having another monk scenario.

They should have never allowed flurry of blows to be gained via feats.

[Firebeard92]

aobst128 wrote:

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

Then make them regular attacks, but not unarmed strikes. Have them be a new “weapon” group called blasts and keep the bit about them being improved via hand wraps. This would allow them to block it from being used in Flurry of Blows as well as making it an option to allow a proficiency progression faster for the Kineticist if they decide to go that route. (I’ve seen people suggest they get legendary proficiency with their blasts, not sure how I personally feel about it, but it is an opinion that’s out there.)

They may have to tweak the critical specialization for it, since each has different abilities currently. However, that could be handled pretty easily I believe.

[aobst128]

Martialmasters wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

While I'd like to balance both. They absolutely need to balance towards the class itself before the dedications.

Imo if you get blast's out of the gate at level 1. They need a reduction in power at least until level ten.

And personally, I'm in favor of not having another monk scenario.

They should have never allowed flurry of blows to be gained via feats.

That's true. Dedication could grant the melee blasts since those are in line with other kinds of unarmed attacks you could get and leave the ranged blasts to level 6 or above. The monk problem does rear it head for kineticists though if they'll be regular attacks since FOB will be the defacto booster at 10th level. Same is kinda true for animal barbarians though.

[Martialmasters]

aobst128 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

While I'd like to balance both. They absolutely need to balance towards the class itself before the dedications.

Imo if you get blast's out of the gate at level 1. They need a reduction in power at least until level ten.

And personally, I'm in favor of not having another monk scenario.

They should have never allowed flurry of blows to be gained via feats.

That's true. Dedication could grant the melee blasts since those are in line with other kinds of unarmed attacks you could get and leave the ranged blasts to level 6 or above. The monk problem does rear it head for kineticists though if they'll be regular attacks since FOB will be the defacto booster at 10th level. Same is kinda true for animal barbarians though.

Animal barbarian is a much smaller issue imo because it's not hard to get close to their damage value in die size and they retain the +10 to damage over someone who took it via dedication. Wich is worth far more.

[aobst128]

Martialmasters wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

While I'd like to balance both. They absolutely need to balance towards the class itself before the dedications.

Imo if you get blast's out of the gate at level 1. They need a reduction in power at least until level ten.

And personally, I'm in favor of not having another monk scenario.

They should have never allowed flurry of blows to be gained via feats.

That's true. Dedication could grant the melee blasts since those are in line with other kinds of unarmed attacks you could get and leave the ranged blasts to level 6 or above. The monk problem does rear it head for kineticists though if they'll be regular attacks since FOB will be the defacto booster at 10th level. Same is kinda true for animal barbarians though.

Animal barbarian is a much smaller issue imo because it's not hard to get close to their damage value in die size and they retain the +10 to damage over someone who took it via dedication. Wich is worth far more.

Is it a problem for kineticists though is what I'm wondering. With 2 action impulses + FOB, that's hard to pass up and it's very easy to have the stats for it by 10th level. It will be competing with chain blast at that level of it sticks around which is decent competition but the versatility of FOB I think will beat it out with all your various other actions you'll be using.

[Martialmasters]

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

[aobst128]

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

Got it. Small misunderstanding along the way. Your #2 already works currently. Probably just have to either fix the impulse trait, (honestly, it looks like it's the same thing as the kineticist trait), or make an exception for provoking in melee under elemental blast. Dropping the impulse trait entirely and just adding a requirement that you must have a gathered element to your kineticist abilities and then add the manipulate trait where applicable directly to the abilities would be my vote to fix it.

[Firebeard92]

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

[aobst128]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

[Firebeard92]

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

[Unicore]

I don’t think flurry rangers should get access to agile ranged attacks that work with their ranged weapon feats.

[aobst128]

Firebeard92 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I mean kineticists multiclassing to gain point blank shot or other weapon support through multiclassing rather than the other way around.

[aobst128]

Unicore wrote:

I don’t think flurry rangers should get access to agile ranged attacks that work with their ranged weapon feats.

They wouldn't work with hunted shot since that requires a bow specifically. They would work with hunters aim though.

[Firebeard92]

Unicore wrote:

I don’t think flurry rangers should get access to agile ranged attacks that work with their ranged weapon feats.

It doesn’t look like it would since the Hunted Shot requires you to be wielding a ranged weapon. Unless Gathering and Element means you’re wielding a weapon, then it wouldn’t. Which I would lean towards it not counting.

[Firebeard92]

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I mean kineticists multiclassing to gain point blank shot or other weapon support through multiclassing rather than the other way around.

I still don’t think that this is a problem. They’d be using at least 2 feats to get that instead of something like another impulse ability, which are resourceless utility. I think it’s fair to give up that for something along those lines.

[aobst128]

Firebeard92 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I mean kineticists multiclassing to gain point blank shot or other weapon support through multiclassing rather than the other way around.

I still don’t think that this is a problem. They’d be using at least 2 feats to get...

It's probably not that big of a deal but if you want to focus on blasting, it's fairly optimized to go for point blank shot especially at higher levels when you could be making a good handful of attacks with chain blast and maelstrom blast. It's a similar problem with flurry bow rangers. They'll want to pick up point blank shot at some point. Especially if you choose a long bow. Other than that, the flavor supports unarmed attacks more than weapons I think.

[Martialmasters]

Personally I'd be quite upset if I was forced into a feat tax just to melee with this class.

[Firebeard92]

Martialmasters wrote:

Personally I'd be quite upset if I was forced into a feat tax just to melee with this class.

You already are though, in a way. The only penalty for ranged attacks in melee is that they provoke attacks of opportunity. Currently, Elemental Blast does this even if it is melee. The only way to get around it is with the Elemental Weapon feat.

I also kind of seeing it mirroring the monk in a sense. They have to take feats for access to ranged options with their core feature FOB. Taking feats to do melee for the Kineticist seems fine to me in that sense.

If they keep the melee ranged split options like they are now, the ranged options need to be stronger than their current state. 2d4 with no modifier for air until level 7 is ridiculous. The others aren’t much better, which isn’t fun, especially when the majority of people’s fantasy for this type of class is very much range focused.

[Squiggit]

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

[Martialmasters]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Personally I'd be quite upset if I was forced into a feat tax just to melee with this class.

You already are though, in a way. The only penalty for ranged attacks in melee is that they provoke attacks of opportunity. Currently, Elemental Blast does this even if it is melee. The only way to get around it is with the Elemental Weapon feat.

I also kind of seeing it mirroring the monk in a sense. They have to take feats for access to ranged options with their core feature FOB. Taking feats to do melee for the Kineticist seems fine to me in that sense.

If they keep the melee ranged split options like they are now, the ranged options need to be stronger than their current state. 2d4 with no modifier for air until level 7 is ridiculous. The others aren’t much better, which isn’t fun, especially when the majority of people’s fantasy for this type of class is very much range focused.

The strength of the dice are not the issue with this class.

And I'm expecting release kineticist to not provoke attack of opportunity on all their attacks. Their blast's at least.

[aobst128]

Ranged blasts should provoke since they're ranged attacks.

[Martialmasters]

aobst128 wrote:

Ranged blasts should provoke since they're ranged attacks.

My phone hates me. Meant melee blast's at least.

[aobst128]

Martialmasters wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Ranged blasts should provoke since they're ranged attacks.

My phone hates me. Meant melee blast's at least.

Ranged blasts could still benefit from losing the manipulate/concentrate trait since getting crit could disrupt it I believe.

[aobst128]

Hmm. A steady spellcasting equivalent feat should exist too.

[Firebeard92]

Squiggit wrote:

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

[Martialmasters]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

The dice aren't the problem. Rather we need a feature to bump damage to favourable levels.

Reasons.

1- it cuts down on the potency of poaching via dedications.

2- it can be made situationally more powerful while also being more consistent.

We have several features right now where it would be easy to tack such things on.

I don't know why we have to feat tax a entire playstyle just to better ensure a ranger can blast better than us by level 4/6.

[Firebeard92]

Martialmasters wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

The dice aren't the problem. Rather we need a feature to bump damage to favourable levels.

Reasons.

1- it cuts down on the potency of poaching via dedications.

2- it can be made situationally more powerful while also being more consistent.

We have several features right now where it would be easy to tack such things on.

I don't know why we have to feat tax a entire playstyle just to better ensure a ranger can blast better than us by level 4/6.

I mentioned something for this earlier as well. It came from somewhere else, so it wasn’t my idea, but you get extra damage depending on gate selection.

Dedicated gates gain +2 damage per damage die.
Dual gates gain +1 damage per damage die.
Universal gates gain no bonus.

What are your thoughts on that? It’s similar to the thaumaturge’s empowerment.

[Martialmasters]

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

[Firebeard92]

Martialmasters wrote:

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

[Martialmasters]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

I've been hesitantly against my better judgement in favor of them being the only gate that gets increased DC scaling either via proficiency or a status/circumstance bonus somewhere.

So long as extract element stays largely the same. They will be able to even on successful enemy save ignore resistance or turn immunity into resistance. With a possible feat to lower that resistance further later.

Dual could be better for blast's. Already kinda is with cycle and fusion.

And universal would have the greatest versatility.

I don't know if that balances things out. And it probably wouldn't sit well with some players. But it fits the games general leaning of how wizards as example work where they give something up to gain benefits in something else.

[Errenor]

Firebeard92 wrote:

Universal gates gain no bonus.

Why? Do they not need damage suddenly?

[Temperans]

Errenor wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Universal gates gain no bonus.

Why? Do they not need damage suddenly?

People are trying to justify getting any amount of damage bonus and it seems like the entire class is being dragged down because of universal.

Remember that universal is not getting 4 elements or 6 elements, but all elements that Paizo releases ever. I swear universal was added to satisfy the AtLA fans hence why we have three gates instead of letting you pick and choose as you level up.