Hybrid elements


Rage of Elements Playtest General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

Seeing how some energy damage types (cold, electricity...) are lacking from those granted at creation to the playtest Kineticist, we think / hope they will be provided by hybrid elements.

What could those hybrid elements be ?

My ideas :

Air + Earth = opposed elements : no hybrid
Air + Fire = Smoke
Air + Metal = Electricity
Air + Water = Ice
Air + Wood = Sound

Earth + Fire = Magma
Earth + Metal = Ore
Earth + Water = Mud
Earth + Wood = Soil

Fire + Metal = Forge
Fire + Water = opposed elements : no hybrid
Fire + Wood = Ember

Metal + Water = Rust
Metal + Wood = opposed elements : no hybrid

Water + Wood = Kelp

What about your ideas ?

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

Seeing how some energy damage types (cold, electricity...) are lacking from those granted at creation to the playtest Kineticist, we think / hope they will be provided by hybrid elements.

What could those hybrid elements be ?

My ideas :

Air + Earth = opposed elements : no hybrid
Air + Fire = Smoke
Air + Metal = Electricity
Air + Water = Ice
Air + Wood = Sound

Earth + Fire = Magma
Earth + Metal = Ore
Earth + Water = Mud
Earth + Wood = Soil

Fire + Metal = Forge
Fire + Water = opposed elements : no hybrid
Fire + Wood = Ember

Metal + Water = Rust
Metal + Wood = opposed elements : no hybrid

Water + Wood = Kelp

What about your ideas ?

Air + Earth aren't opposed. It would create sand. Sandstorms, for example, are the epitome of earth and air.

Fire and water would create steam.

Metal and wood would create Ironwood.


Soil is earth. So yeah that would be weird.

Electricity should just be a basic air blast.
Electric + Water would be Lightning or charged water.

Air/Electric + Fire would be Plasma not Smoke. Smoke would be closer to Wood + Fire.
Air + Water can be thunder as usually you get thunder storms from rain clouds.
Air + Earth is Sand.

Fire + Metal being Forge would be dumb since a forge is not even close to an element.
Fire + Water is Steam.

As far as wood goes I would like a return of the 4 season composites: Air + Wood = Spring, Fire + Wood = Summer, Earth + Wood = Autumn, Cold + Wood = Winter.

Metal is an issue with all of it because it just doesn't make sense as its own element. Earth has some ways to combine, but the only real thing I can think of for metal would be Electric + Metal = Magnet. Which you could get just as well from Earth + Electric.


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Temperans wrote:


Metal is an issue with all of it because it just doesn't make sense as its own element. Earth has some ways to combine, but the only real thing I can think of for metal would be Electric + Metal = Magnet. Which you could get just as well from Earth + Electric.

I feel like your confusion is coming from the perspective of the European elements, while for metal to make sense, you need to think of it from the perspective of the eastern elements. In Wuxing tradition, earth generates metal, and metal generates water, while fire weakens metal, and metal weakens wood. air is not a part of the Wuxing tradition, but is considered part of metal sometimes. It is also important that these 5 elements aren't necessarily based on the physical property's of the material, but on change. I would view the hybrids as how one element changes another, not necessarily how they evenly mix. So metal + earth could be poison or ore, while metal + water is ice or heavy water. fire + metal is probably molten or heated metal, and metal + wood could be splinters.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Some lore and logical considerations based on in-setting material and some science.

Spoiler:
In-setting, Secondary Elements tend to form via the interaction of one Element with another, or the interaction between the Elements and certain forms of Energy present within other Inner Planes.

Due to the layered cosmology of the Elemental Planes in Pathfinder, most of these interaction develop within the borderlands between them. As such, only a few examples of Secondary Elements exist in Golarions cosmology. This is likely to be turned on its head with the re-emergence of the Planes of Wood and Metal.

The likely examples I think we will see are these:

Air+Water=Ice: The Plane of Air borders the Plane of Water, their planar material mixing to form instances of Ice between their borders.

Water+Earth=Mud: The Plane of Water and Plane of Earth are layered, resulting in Elemental Mud and other mud like material. This is likely were Acid as an element stems from. Acidic materials most often form from the interaction of non-metal oxides and water.

Earth+Fire=Magama: Plane of Fire and Earth touch, and where they do Magma forms.

Fire+Air=Lightning: This one has the least canonical explination, since the Plane of Air and Fire don't meet in-setting; but Blood of the Elements implies Lightning is a lesser Element made through the mixing of others. In science, Lightning is a form of Plasma, and the most common form seen in nature. Plasma is considered the fourth form of matter and is created most often through super heating of other matter. Most common among these are gases; hence the correlation. That said, the Planes of Air and Fire don't touch. At least, not based on how it's cosmology has been presented. A few things could be happening here. 1. The cosmology as it is presented is incorrect and the Element Planes somehow layer back onto one another in a manner mortals can't hope to understand -or- it is going to be changed/retconned with the addition of the new Planes. 2. Lightning instead forms from the interaction between the Plane of Fire and the Astral Plane, which do touch. The Plane of Fire can be viewed within the Astral Plane, appearing as a star within its expanse; which are another example of plasma. 3. Lightning forms from the interaction between Air and Metal. My theory on this stems from the peculiar metal spheres that can be found within the Plane of Air. These spheres may well be tied to the Plane of Metal in some way. 4. Another theory, Lightning forms from the interaction between the Plane of Air (or any Element) and the Postive Energy Plane. This idea stems from the knowledge that all stars within the Material Plane possess portals to the Postive Energy Plane within their cores. Since the Plane of Fire is metaphysically seen as a star within the Astral Plane, and the Plane of Air is seen as the innermost layer of the Elemental Planes, it is possible that within the metaphysical core of this "Elemental Star" also has a similiar portal. Or, the Postive Plane being the metaphysical center of the Material Plane, somehow interacts with the Elements to create Lightning. Whatever the truth may be, we aren't likely to know it until Rage of Elements releases.

Air+Fire=Smoke: Another mystery in regards to Pathfinder's cosmology, the Elemental Master's Handbook implies that the Focused Arcane School of Smoke is tied to the Schools of Air and Fire. This would suggest that Smoke forms from their interaction. But, like Lightning, this interaction seems impossible given the layered nature of the Elemental Planes. So, this Element would have to develop from some unknown interaction between the cosmology that mortals don't understand. The Plane of Fire has to somehow border the Plane of Air is a metaphysical manner that defies basic planar law and understaning.

Negative Energy+Elements=Void: Occult Origins implies the Void stems from the Elements interacting with the Negative Energy Plane. If the Elemental Plane encompass the Material Plane, then they must encompass the Shadow Plane as well. So the same theories for Lightning and the Postive Plane likely mirror here, as the Negative Plane is seen as the metaphysical center of the Shadow Plane. This should imply that another Element should form from the interaction with the Shadow Plane, since this (up to this point) has been how Wood was made, forming where the Elements interact with the First World. Another issue unlikely to be addressed until Rage of Elements releases. Assuming that First World idea holds true, I'd argue that Metal than is probably the result of the Elements interacting with the Shadow Planes cold planar substances.

Ethereal Plane+Elements=Aether/Pure Force: Occult Adventures and Occult Origins implies an interaction between the planar substance of the Ethereal Plane and the Elements. The Ethereal Plane borders all of the Inner Sphere and its Planes. It connects them all. Therefore, this makes sense. What Aether truly is though isn't really explained.

Spirit?: Vudran elemental philosophy has its own ideas on the elements. Most of it makes mention of the four classics, but mentions Spirit as an Element as well. Where exactly this stems from isn't known atm. My off the cuff theory? The interaction between the Ethereal and Astral -or- the interaction between Positive and Negative Energy. Hoping Impossible Lands and Rage of Elements makes mention of it in some regard. This is the one I'd love to know more about. Assuming it stays canon.

If we see anything outside of these, they'll likely come as a result of interactios between the re-emergencing of Metal and Wood; or a reshuffling of how all the planes are understood to exist.

Dark Archive

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The 1e kineticist did have interesting combination blasts, such as combining earth and wood to make autumn blast

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