Is it just me or is 'Inspiring Prediction' just brutal?

[Albion, The Eye]

Talking about this.

I mean, a Wizard can easily use this.... Hmmm... 7+ times a day right?

Am I the only one to think this may be a tad over the top? It certainly is enough to break the balance on any melee encounter I think. Heck, +4 on Saving Throws will put a dent on any magical based encounter also :/

And this is a +4 flat bonus from level 1. Feels way too strong when compared with other level 1 School powers.

Also, I do not see any duration - how long would the bonus be valid for?

[VoodistMonk]

That is good. Even better for anyone with the Fate's Favored trait...

But it's the "next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check", after the Wizard uses a swift action on their turn. The Divination Wizard's turn is likely going to be first in Initiative order, so it will likely be everyone's first "attack roll, saving throw, or skill check" each combat [that the Divination Wizard chooses to use the ability in question].

There is no time limit other than "next".

[Lelomenia]

VoodistMonk wrote:

That is good. Even better for anyone with the Fate's Favored trait...

But it's the "next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check", after the Wizard uses a swift action on their turn. The Divination Wizard's turn is likely going to be first in Initiative order, so it will likely be everyone's first "attack roll, saving throw, or skill check" each combat [that the Divination Wizard chooses to use the ability in question].

There is no time limit other than "next".

divination wizard with Inspiring Prediction doesn’t have Forewarned, so not so likely to be high in initiative order.

In general, Divination school spells are weak, so they get the best powers,

And Inspiring Prediction is replacing Forewarned, which is amazing. So it should be very strong.0

[Pizza Lord]

It looks reasonable enough. +4 is pretty good. But it is only on the next one of those rolls made after casting.

Ultimately it comes down to how it's utilized (ie. abused). I mean, a bad guy filling the end room with 15 or more allies or a PC doing the same is going to theoretically get more benefit. 20+ (non-optimized) kobolds might only be a minor annoyance to most mid-level parties, with most requiring 19 or 20 to hit (10% chance), meaning about 2 or 3 might hit, depending on the target. But now that's upped to 30% (or 6 to 8) and the ones that would have got 19 or 20 to hit (which are typical crit threat ranges) are now far more likely to crit. That can be a pretty big swing. So yeah, how it's used/abused is important.

As for the lack of duration, it's unlikely that it should be allowed to linger about for more than a couple rounds, a minute at most. It only lasts until the next attack, save, or skill check. So doing this an hour before a fight probably won't work, since it doesn't exempt inadvertent skill checks. So even a passive Perception check would remove it, which likely happens before a PC party enters a room.

This is just a mechanic to keep the ability from being abused too much. I obviously wouldn't apply it immediately in combat; for instance:
Wizard uses Inspiring Prediction, gives all allies +4 to next attack, save, or skill check. Bad guy goes next and says, "Shame you just all lost it now, since I'm talking, and that means you've made a passive Perception check, even though the DC is 0 (or –10 if he's shouting) and normally you wouldn't even need a roll since it's technically an auto pass with your default modifiers... it's still technically a roll and you got +4 to it. Mwa hahaha!

Obviously I wouldn't go that extreme... but by the Rules, which is the forum we're in. I would just point out that despite the 'next roll' stipulation, it's unlikely that technically they wouldn't be making a passive skill check (which still counts), but only as a way to point out why it wouldn't be a good short-term pre-buff (maybe a couple rounds when you know someone's coming in), definitely not even bless-tier in that regard. In functional mechanics benefit, it is pretty good, and as a swift action isn't restrictive on multi-use during a combat.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So luck bonuses stack, right? So figure you've got a Warpriest and a Wizard (Prophecy Specialist) in the party. Round 1, the Warpriest wins initiative and has the Fate's Favored trait. They use a Swift Action, Fervor/Divine Favor to give themselves a +1 Luck bonus on all weapon attacks and damage; this becomes a +2 with the trait.

Then the wizard goes, using their Swift to deliver a +4 Luck bonus to all allies' next attack roll. Would this become a +5 for the Warpriest? So, the Warpriest's next attack roll, before stats, BAB or feats should be +7 to hit? Just wondering.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So luck bonuses stack, right? So figure you've got a Warpriest and a Wizard (Prophecy Specialist) in the party. Round 1, the Warpriest wins initiative and has the Fate's Favored trait. They use a Swift Action, Fervor/Divine Favor to give themselves a +1 Luck bonus on all weapon attacks and damage; this becomes a +2 with the trait.

Then the wizard goes, using their Swift to deliver a +4 Luck bonus to all allies' next attack roll. Would this become a +5 for the Warpriest? So, the Warpriest's next attack roll, before stats, BAB or feats should be +7 to hit? Just wondering.

Luck bonuses do not stack.

Dodge bonuses are the only bonus type that normally stacks (assuming they are not from the same source).

[Taja the Barbarian]

Albion, The Eye wrote:

Talking about this.

I mean, a Wizard can easily use this.... Hmmm... 7+ times a day right?

Am I the only one to think this may be a tad over the top? It certainly is enough to break the balance on any melee encounter I think. Heck, +4 on Saving Throws will put a dent on any magical based encounter also :/

And this is a +4 flat bonus from level 1. Feels way too strong when compared with other level 1 School powers.

Also, I do not see any duration - how long would the bonus be valid for?

Please note the Divination's Prophecy School is not PFS Legal, which is often (but not always*) an indication that it is considered unbalanced...

*Options could also be banned from PFS for being evil, using a subsystem that PFS does not use (like crafting), being unclear on how they work, or just not mixing well with organized play in general.

[Belafon]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Luck bonuses do not stack.

Dodge bonuses are the only bonus type that normally stacks (assuming they are not from the same source).

Along with racial, circumstance, and untyped bonuses.

Special Spell Effects wrote:

Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Thanks for the clarifications!

[Belafon]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Please note the Divination's Prophecy School is not PFS Legal, which is often (but not always*) an indication that it is considered unbalanced...

*Options could also be banned from PFS for being evil, using a subsystem that PFS does not use (like crafting), being unclear on how they work, or just not mixing well with organized play in general.

This is a good point, and PFS legality is something I often look at as well. The prophecy focused arcane school probably wasn't legal for three reasons.

1. The lack of a duration on the Inspiring Prediction ability.
2. In Accordance with the Prophecy is REALLY powerful. Even with a 20% chance of fizzling, it lets you empower your highest level spells. A level 9 wizard can empower 5th-level spells, something which normally requires 7th-level spell slots.
3. In Accordance with the Prophecy doesn't have a listed duration either.

Spoiler:

Assuming an Int modifier of +9 (fairly common for PFS wizards by 8th or 9th level in my experience) you can look at In Accordance with the Prophecy as three free normal Empower Metamagic rods (normally 32,500 gp each) with a 20% fizzle rate. At 13th level it would be three free greater Empower Metamagic rods (and with only a 15% fizzle rate).

The one thing that reduces the usefulness of the ability is that by the rules using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless stated otherwise. Keeping you from using it on a (non-quickened) spell the same round. I'm not sure if that was the intention but even if it was, that probably should have been reinforced in the text by adding "as a standard action".

If I wanted to clean it up for a home game I would change the Prophecy focused arcane school to:

My Rewrite:

Inspiring Prediction (Su): A number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier, you can predict an ally’s success, bolstering others’ resolve. As a swift action, you can shout an inspiring prediction, granting each ally within 50 feet who can hear you a +4 luck bonus on her next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check before the end of her next turn.

In Accordance with the Prophecy (Su): A number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier, as a standard action you can publicly declare that your next spell is guided by prophecy. When you do, the next spell you cast before the end of your next round has a 20% chance of fizzling (1–20 on a d%). If the spell does not fail, treat the spell as if it had been modified by the Empower Spell feat, even if you do not have that feat. At 12th level, the chance that the spell fizzles is reduced to 15% (1–15 on a d%). At 16th level, the chance is reduced to 10% (1–10 on a d%). You may only use this ability with a spell at least two levels below the highest-level spell slot you can cast.

[Albion, The Eye]

Thanks a lot for the feedback everyone. And in particular for the very good analysis and rewrite Belafon!