Ok so Dragon Disciple has been around forever and I've always wanted to play one. Well now I have my chance. Playing in a homebrew-ish Waterdeep. I think it is mostly a 3.x Waterdeep adapted for PFS1. With some ideas added in from all over. The campaign is open-ended. Meaning it will stop when we've decided we are tired of it. Whether that is level 12 or 37.
My PC thinks he is really supposed to be a dragon that somehow got cursed by followers of Tiamat into the body of a Nagaji. His ultimate goal is to get 'uncursed' so he can be the dragon he was always supposed to be.
Not entirely certain on the build progression. Definitely a melee focus and intending to do most of my serious fighting with tooth and claw.
-Certainly bloodrager (copper draconic) rageshaper archetype.
-Seriously considering my 4th level to be sorcerer. That way the caster levels gained from Dragon Disciple could be in sorcerer which has a much more expansive spell list than bloodrager.
-All 10 levels of Dragon Disciple. Then back to bloodrager after that.
-Took the feat Intimidating Prowess at 1st level. People should respect and fear dragons. Will probably retrain it so something else when I can get the actual spells to make someone afraid. But maybe not, see how it goes.
-Took Power Attack for my 3rd level feat. I mean that's just almost standard for a strong melee PC.
-If I take a level of sorcerer, then I will almost certainly eventually want Arcane Armor Training and limit myself to mitral chain shirt for no spell failure chance. On the other hand Mage Armor is free and lasts hours for the exact same AC (until I can afford to get the armor enchanted).
-If I don't take sorcerer then I could stay with a breastplate for slightly better protection.
-Obviously want the Robe of Arcane Heritage as soon as I can afford it.
-I think the Town Tamer story feat will fit very well with the way the group is beginning to shake down.
-Combat Casting seems like kind of a no brainer since I'm a melee combatant with spells.
-The group has been kinda discussing the Broken Wing Gambit teamwork feat and its follow on Wounded Paw Gambit. Probably with me being the lure for the others to use. That hasn't been decided yet.
-Even though it is kinda boring, been thinking about the toughness feat.
-Not sure if Weapon Focus is worth it since I will have 2 different natural attacks and can't get Specialization.
So... What are your thought, suggestions, concerns, ideas, or critiques? What do you think about the level of sorcerer? The more I think about it, the more I like it. As I read it, Dragon Disciple would advance both the bloodrager and the sorcerer bloodline abilities. Similarly I think the Robe of Arcane Heritage would increase both of them. That would give me lots of rounds of claw/tooth attacks and a large number of breath weapon uses. Yes, I will check with the DM to make sure how he thinks those should be interpreted.
Build so far:
Male nagaji bloodrager (rageshaper) 3 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15, 84, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 4 199)
CG Medium humanoid (reptilian)
Init +1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 42 (3d10+12)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1; +2 vs. mind-affecting effects and poison
Defensive Abilities uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee dagger +7 (1d4+4/19-20) or
. . longsword +7 (1d8+4/19-20) or
. . lucerne hammer +7 (1d12+6) or
. . net +3 (entangle) or
. . sap +7 (1d6+4 nonlethal)
Ranged mwk composite shortbow +3 (1d6+4/×3)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with lucerne hammer)
Special Attacks bloodrage (11 rounds/day), claws
Bloodrager (Rageshaper) Spells Known (CL 2nd; concentration +6)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 18
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess
Traits blood of dragons, indomitable faith, magical knack
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+7 to jump), Bluff +4 (+2 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Climb +6, Diplomacy +4 (+2 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Disguise +4 (+2 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Handle Animal +8 (+6 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check, +10 vs. reptiles), Intimidate +12 (+10 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check), Knowledge (arcana) +7, Perception +8, Ride +3, Spellcraft +5, Survival +3, Swim +6, Use Magic Device +5 (+3 for 24 hours when you fail an opposed Charisma based check); Racial Modifiers +2 Handle Animal racial bonus vs. reptiles, +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Nagaji
SQ fast movement, resistant, serpent's sense, vain
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds (2), potion of cure light wounds, acid, oil (2); Other Gear chain shirt, wooden snarlshield, dagger, longsword, lucerne hammer[APG], mwk composite shortbow (+5 Str), net, sap, traveler's any-tool[UE], bandolier[UE], bandolier[UE], bedroll, belt pouch, candle, chalk (3), earplugs[APG], fetters, masterwork (barbed)[ARG], fetters, masterwork (barbed)[ARG], fishhook, flint and steel, grappling hook, hammock[UE], hemp rope (50 ft.), lamp, manacles, masterwork (barbed)[ARG], manacles, masterwork (barbed)[ARG], masterwork backpack[APG], piton (3), sack, sewing needle, signal whistle, soap, string or twine[APG], torch (3), trail rations (5), waterskin (2), wrist sheath, spring loaded, wrist sheath, spring loaded, 6 pp, 2 sp, 5 cp
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Special Abilities
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Bloodrage (11 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Claws (Ex) 2 Claw attacks deal 1d6 damage
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Resistant (Ex) +2 racial bonus to saves vs. mind-affecting effects and poison.
Serpent's Sense (Ex) +2 racial bonus on Handle Animal checks against reptiles.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Vain -2 to Cha checks for 24h after failing an opposed Cha check
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Fear no longer! For I, Kal Drak, am here to protect you. As all know, I am the reincarnation of the Morcaine. The previous dragon avatar of Bahmut.
Together we shall throw down the vile creatures which threaten the countryside. Then this can be peaceful prosperous place.
Where all can live under the benevolent guidance of the dragons which make all good things possible.
Gruingar believes himself to be a dragonic avatar of Bahmut who goes by the name of Kal Drak. He has somehow gotten trapped in the shape of a Nagaji. his goals are to find a way to 'return' to his proper dragon form. Then peacefully rule in Bahmut's name. He isn't entirely sure on this. He thinks there is a chance he is supposed to set things up so a different dragon can rule. Or maybe he is even supposed to set up a bunch of little kinglets, that report to him as the divine emperor. But he doesn't let anyone know about those doubts.
{Totally irrelevant to me if those are beyond the scope of the campaign. Maybe that will be a post level 20 occurance. That is what he has in mind and what he is working toward.}
Kal Drak is a tall, broad shouldered, athletic Nagaji. He is relatively handsome (though quite arrogant). Over the last several years, his gray-ish scales have begun to turn a burnished red at the edges. He is quite vain and expects to be the center of attention.
If anyone were to look into the antecedents of Kal, they would find he was born as Gruingar de'Morcaine in south central ???. He comes from a large ordinary family that runs a moderately successful tannery.
At some point something went 'click' in his mind and Kal Drak entered the scene. He doesn't acknowledge anything of his past prior to that point. He IS a dragon. Not only that, he is an avatar of Bahmut. Somehow some unknown servant of Tiamat trapped him in this Nagaji form. When he finally manages to break that curse, he will be able to properly take up his mantle and duties as an Avatar of Bahmut.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Instead of bloodrager/sorcerer, something you could consider is Eldritch Scion Magus (with draconic bloodline). This has the advantage of giving you more spells than the bloodrager, plus casting in armor, plus spell combat. Then proceed to DD as normal.
Either way, I don't recommend Arcane Armor Training since it eats your swift actions (and at mid-to-high level, you have plenty of use for those).
As you likely have good charisma, feats to consider include Scion of War (cha to initiative), Steadfast Personality (cha to most will saves) and the Irrepressible trait (cha to some will saves).
As I read it, Dragon Disciple would advance both the bloodrager and the sorcerer bloodline abilities.
Sorry, but that doesn't work that way. The DD says that it "gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class" (not "every arcane spellcasting class") and the Robe says that "the wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal" (not "every class with a bloodline"). So DD lets you pick one bloodline class but not both, and the Robe doesn't work for bloodragers in the first place. No two-for-the-price-of-one combo here :P
You can apply DD's spells per day class feature to a 1st-level sorcerer, but it's going to be a slow progression. 2nd-level spells at character level 9, 3rd at 12, 4th at 15. A straight-forward bloodrager is quicker, actually, and can combine his spells with bloodrage (blood casting class feature).
However, if you are mostly after Form of the Dragon and the ability to fly, the prestige class gets you covered, without spells. Further, the 5th level of bloodrager isn't that great, though it still nets you a point of BAB, a decent amount of hitpoints and improved uncanny dodge.
The FAQ about bloodragers and DD can be interpreted in a way that DD improves both bloodlines. I don't think that's intended, and your GM might object - better clarify with them before first session.
I guess bloodrager + sorcerer + DD can work out fine, as long as the campaign's power level isn't far above adventure path level.
I'm going to recommend going full sorcerer before going 10 levels of DD, and then back into Sorc til 20.
If you start with 20 Strength and put your +1 Ability Score at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, you're going to end up with 25 Strength at 20. You'll get +4 Str from DD advancement makes this 29 Str. +5 Inherent from Wish is 34 Str. +6 from a Belt of Physical Perfection is 40 Strength. At level 20, this is a stellar Str score tbh.
Your stats are Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 18, I would drop your Con and possibly Int to try to get 20 Str and 20 Cha.
Besides the loss of 3 spellcasting level progression from DD, you'll be a full caster, and if you want to shore this up a bit you can take 1, 2, or even 3 doses of Prestigious Spellcaster feats, and now you're a 9th level caster with full progression and 40 strength.
Use your Draconic Bloodline Feats to pick up Power Attack, Blind Fight, and Quicken Spell. It is probably very tempting to go for Toughness here, but I'd recommend against that and rely on your spells for defense as opposed to hit points. Mirror Image, Displacement/Blur, Emergency Force Sphere, Dimension Door, Shield, and Protection from Energy, Spell Resistance, and Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law will do so much better in keeping you alive than 1 HP/level, and being able to Quicken these with Quicken Spell is the Bee's Knees. Attacking your AC while displaced and images up is futile. Your Fortitude and Will saves will be pretty decent, and your Reflex is going to be in the dumpster, so I'd recommend getting a Ring of Evasion at some point whenever you can afford it.
Not only will you be an extremely competent melee presence, but you'll be a 9th level caster with access to Form of the Dragon III, and you can get a +10 Str bonus, for a total of 50 Str. BBEG? Form of the Dragon III. Boom, dragon in ur face with 6 attacks, and 9th level spells too.
When you're not using Form of the Dragon III and you're simply dungeon crawling or walking around, your BAB progression from 10DD/10Sorc is only +12 at level 20, so I would heavily consider going Vital Strike once you reach BAB +6, possibly even Imp VS at BAB 11, and plan on doing a lot of Move + Cast Spell + Quicken Spell or Move + Vital Strike + Quicken Spell for a majority of your round's actions, and plan on enchanting your weapon with Brilliant Energy so you can attack Touch AC. Your massive Strength Bonus will carry you well into the late-ish Mid-game (lvl12-16ish) until you can realistically afford this enchant.
You might even consider only getting a 19 in Charisma to start if you're going to go with a 40 Str at level 20; if you start with 19 Cha, then Wish takes this up to 24 Cha, and a Headband takes your Cha to 30 at level 20. So, 40 Str / 30 Cha. <---- Not too shabby tbh.
Alternatively, you can forgo putting +1 Ability scores at 4/8/12/16/20 into Strength, and focus more on your casting prowess. You could go 19 Str and 20 Cha to start at level 1, +5 Cha from levels puts you at 25 Cha, +5 from Wish puts you at 30, and a Headband puts you at 36 Cha. If you go 19str/20Cha at level 1, you'll end up with 36 Cha and 34 Str at lvl 20. <--- Also not too shabby.
With either Ability Score build you choose, you will be a highly competent frontlines Melee and Spellcasting presence, and you can switch to Form of the Dragon I, II, or III for BBEG's and tougher fights. I would recommend putting your Con at 10 or 12 max. You'll get +2 Con from DD advancement, and you can always use False Life and Greater False Life and give yourself Temp HP that lasts 1hour/level. Once you reach level 10-12ish and higher, this lasts pretty much all day.
If any of this sounds interesting to you, I could create a build order if you want?
Instead of bloodrager/sorcerer, something you could consider is Eldritch Scion Magus (with draconic bloodline). ...
I thought about this. However, I'm already playing a magus in the other group with mostly the same group of players.
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Either way, I don't recommend Arcane Armor Training since it eats your swift actions (and at mid-to-high level, you have plenty of use for those).As you likely have good charisma, feats to consider include Scion of War (cha to initiative), Steadfast Personality (cha to most will saves) and the Irrepressible trait (cha to some will saves).
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Totally forgot it uses up the swift action. Agree to nix that.
I like your ideas on those cha feats.
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As I read it, Dragon Disciple would advance both the bloodrager and the sorcerer bloodline abilities.Sorry, but that doesn't work that way. The DD says that it "gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class" (not "every arcane spellcasting class") and the Robe says that "the wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal" (not "every class with a bloodline"). So DD lets you pick one bloodline class but not both, and the Robe doesn't work for bloodragers in the first place. No two-for-the-price-of-one combo here :P
I agree only advances the casting of one class. However, as both I an my DM read it, it advances both sets of bloodline powers. Things like claws, bite, breath weapon, acid immunity, etc...
DM is thinking about the Robe. Which is fine. I won't be able to afford it for quite a while. Still worth while if only functions for one.
You can apply DD's spells per day class feature to a 1st-level sorcerer, but it's going to be a slow progression. 2nd-level spells at character level 9, 3rd at 12, 4th at 15. A straight-forward bloodrager is quicker, actually, and can combine his spells with bloodrage (blood casting class feature). ...
But so few spells per day and such a tiny list of possibilities! Still considering.
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The FAQ about bloodragers and DD can be interpreted in a way that DD improves both bloodlines. I don't think that's intended, and your GM might object - better clarify with them before first session.I guess bloodrager + sorcerer + DD can work out fine, as long as the campaign's power level isn't far above adventure path level.
DM agrees with me on the DD, not sure about the robe yet.
I'm going to recommend going full sorcerer before going 10 levels of DD, and then back into Sorc til 20.
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Not only will you be an extremely competent melee presence, but you'll be a 9th level caster with access to Form of the Dragon III, ...
Sounds great eventually. However, here at low level, I am our groups primary melee presence. If I tried to do that for 5 levels of sorcerer, I would get quickly squished. IF I always had time to cast a bunch of defensive spells prior to combat, I might be able to survive. But I can't always count on that. In fact, with how our group normally operates I probably can't usually count on that. Plus I'd run out of spells for defense before I run out of encounters.
Besides, I've already played him as a bloodrager for levels. Hmm... I suppose if I'm rich enough and have enough downtime, once we get to 11th level or so I could retrain those class levels into straight sorcerer. I might think about that for the future.
If you're the only melee presence, Bloodrager10/DragonDisciple10 is a solid choice too.
What does your party look like?
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What does your party look like?
- Druid, should eventually be a good melee assist, but currently to squishy. Decently high damage potential (greater than mine so far if gets good hits) but not great HP and AC suxs. Tends to buff damage rather than defense, then is leery about entering combat. Still learning how to work a druid.
- Wizard not sure what specialization he's going for. But I think he said he is going for group buff spells like haste and communal X spells.- Healing and condition recovery cleric. (Also works for undead blasting.)
- Questioner archetype investigator. Scout and support spells.
1.Maybe crossblooded?
You probably could be an orc. Because orcs proficiency with all "orc" words especially with sORCery!
Most dragon sorcs stay stronger when crossblooded with orc bloodline. 6 size and 6 inherit bonuses are great adds to your strength power
2. Bloodline mutation
Big strength score sinergy great with bloodline intensity and Blood Piercing to make ridiculously overpowered Gish build!
(You can add your str for intensity or/and energy res, SR penetration)
Bloodline havoc is also a great option to add damage.
3. Survivaleblity:
Vampiric Touch could be a great option to get giant amount of temporary hit points.
Spectral Hand also a good way to deliver this touch spell
Things of note:
--Bloodrager scales very well in general, and Bloodrager spell list has actually pretty good options.
--An underappreciatd feature is that Urban Bloodragers get a semi pounce, as long as they have level 2 spells, at level 11. They do this by picking up the excellent bladed dash spell, and then casting it as a free action when they enter a greater bloodrage.
--Dragon Disciple is kind of frontloaded, with the big goodies being in the first 4 levels. Urban Bloodrager 16 DD 4 is very mobile, has absurd stats and quite fun to play.
Already played the first 3 level with him as a Nagaji. His play and personality up until know have been partly around that.
I will look into Bloodline Mutations. Don't remember anything about them.
Yes, Vampiric Touch is pretty good. I'm more likely to cast it before the fight then deliver with a natural attack though.
Yeah, bloodrager isn't as awful as I was acting like. Still on the fence about the level of sorcerer.
Already using the Rageshaper archetype to increase damage of the natural attacks. I think I like that better than the Urban.
Yes, I agree that all 10 levels of DD isn't really optimal. But I want this guy to have as much dragon as possible. So I will still probably do all the levels of DD. But I might throw a couple more bloodrager in after DD 4. Not sure.