It's not barb or gunslinger you compare dpr to, but fighter. Plus so long as you have a bard with dirge and dread striker, there's no need to worry about things going perfectly because sneak attack would always be on. As it is, thief rogue is considered the second best martial class in the game behind the fighter.
Dumping con is a non-starter. Let the wizard handle int and get that con to 16 so he doesn't get clapped by the first scary monster or con save sent his way. Extra trained skills from int look nice at first, but eventually get outscaled and become as useless as untrained skills.
Unfortunately, without a bard using dirge you aren't likely to get consistent value out of dread striker. Demoralize's 1 turn duration isn't nearly reliable enough.
Other than that, you have all the required feats. Preparation is probably better than flensing strike but at that point you're stuck with the dedication for double slice unless you go the fighter route instead.
Yeah, that Con is a huge flaw! Both h.p. & Fort are necessary to contend in the front lines, and Rogues already start behind in both.
And as mentioned, let the Wizard do the Int skills. Rogues get nearly every skill already so you don't need Int for more (unless going for Int skills, which you have somebody else for).
Also, with Double Slice you only add precision damage (i.e. Sneak Attack) once, even if both hit. Which shouldn't necessarily stop you since it's capping your topmost damage, but raising your bottom-most. Just telling you so your have accurate expectations. (And I like that Archetype because of the near-auto hit feat at higher levels).
In the same vein, and just in case because it's a misunderstanding I've seen several times before, Assurance does not work like Take 10 from PF1. It's more like Take 6 (given your 18 Dex doesn't add in). This too has its places, like when dealing with basic tasks, but won't help vs. at level threats/obstacles. So if you do take it (and I have prospective builds with Assurance (Stealth), so I'm not saying you shouldn't), then maybe later when you have some levels so there are such obstacles below your level.
Plus I wouldn't worry about outdamaging a PF2 Gunslinger. Ranged attackers tend to do less nowadays, but get more consistency and get to operate from safer areas. PF2 recognizes that advantage and balanced damage down.
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Strength and Constitution are both more useful than Intelligence for a Thief: An 8 Strength means you'll take penalties in the basic Leather Armor you'll be wearing until level 10 (also, your carrying capacity needs all the help it can get, and you will probably want to succeed at a climb check now and again).
My halfling thief felt pretty good with:
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
That being said, he did spent a lot of time in a pool of his own blood at low levels (and at higher levels too, although not as often)
Thieves are great damage-dealers (assuming they can get their foe flat-footed, of course) but are a bit fragile (unexceptional AC, fairly low HP, and no baseline shield block mechanic) and don't typically survive very long if focused by the enemy. Honestly, the PF2 Thief is probably the most powerful version published in the nearly 50 years of the D&D/Pathfinder family.
As for Stealth, a few baseline things to remember:
- You need cover/concealment at both the start and end of your move,
- You can only move half your speed (rounded down)
- For Halflings, that means you can move 25ft / 2 = 10ft per Sneak action, and
- Since your starting square and ending square both need cover/concealment, you effectively can only move through one 5ft square without cover/concealment.
In the same vein, and just in case because it's a misunderstanding I've seen several times before, Assurance does not work like Take 10 from PF1. It's more like Take 6 (given your 18 Dex doesn't add in). This too has its places, like when dealing with basic tasks, but won't help vs. at level threats/obstacles. So if you do take it (and I have prospective builds with Assurance (Stealth), so I'm not saying you shouldn't), then maybe later when you have some levels so there are such obstacles below your level.
It is actually more like Take 4 on Stealth. You need cover or concealment to sneak and usually it will be cover, which provides a +2 circumstance bonus to AC. And because Stealth needs to beat your opponent's Perception DC, you want every point you can get. If you want reliable stealth, I recommend Terrain Stalker. You need to pick the right terrain, but if that's apparent you're golden.
I'd recommend Assurance Athletics. It will gel better with your ability scores, and unlike Stealth Athletics is often used against simple, static DCs. And you often technically need to roll a bunch of consecutive checks, so the consistency is clutch. Say you're a level 8 rogue and there's a 300 foot tower you want to climb. The bricks are old and have handholds, so it is only a DC 20 to climb. That's an easy DC for the barbarian to hit, but he needs to roll 30+ of them to scale the whole thing. Odds are he will eventually nat 1 and take a tumble. But with Assurance, you don't need to bother rolling and there's no chance of critical failure.
I've also seen a level 6 or 7 halfling need three rounds to scale a freaking ladder in combat. It was only DC 10 but he was untrained in Athletics. Even if you're trained, with no strength you'll still struggle at low levels with such a basic task. No self respecting thief should be foiled by a ladder, nor should they fall off the wall they are scaling and land in the privy, alerting the mansion to their presence.
Yeah, Assurance is for when you suck (and can't rely on a d20), when you have set DCs/low DCs you know you to target, or when you rely on something so much you need to buffer against Misfortune effects (i.e. Swashbucklers w/ their Panache skill).
I also like how Assurance (Athletics) can help trip lower-level buffoons automatically. Not so much nimble enemies or significant threats, but since Assurance ignores MAP penalties, it can be done w/ a spare action.
Yeah, Assurance is for when you suck (and can't rely on a d20), when you have set DCs/low DCs you know you to target, or when you rely on something so much you need to buffer against Misfortune effects (i.e. Swashbucklers w/ their Panache skill).
I also like how Assurance (Athletics) can help trip lower-level buffoons automatically. Not so much nimble enemies or significant threats, but since Assurance ignores MAP penalties, it can be done w/ a spare action.
You can also grapple the nimble enemies instead.
I recall that analysis being flawed and redone. In the first place, the barbarian in that scenario has blown its first turn on setup which tanks its damage when viewed across the whole encounter, not to mention how frail the barbarian is compared to other martial classes.
Between skill utility, switch-hitting, respectable damage, good feats and debilitations, thieves (and ruffians to a lesser extent) are a top tier martial. The issue you'll run into, is that you lack a dirge bard to inflict no-save fear to exploit with dread striker. Neither barbarian nor rogue are particularly durable melee combatants either and you lack a healbot so you'll have some problems maintaining a flank so if the barb is tripping, that's good for you.
AoO is a little weird. By percentage, it's not too widespread, but by usage, you'll run into it often. Most every credible melee threat is going to have it.
For skills, stealth is almost entirely disregarded. Medicine is required for every party to heal to full between combats. The best skill feat used to be scare to death but with it nerfed, intimidate has fallen off in priority. Thievery and religion are the primary skills for a rogue to boost in order to clear proficiency gates to clear hazards (your wizard should have arcana and occultism covered). For skill feats, they mostly don't matter. Kip up removes the action punish if you get tripped, trick magic item is used for the usual longstrider wand, bon mot is on every cha caster, battle prayer can trigger weakness...there are others, but don't stress it too much.
As a pure dex thief rogue, str has no use for you. Never increase it. Similarly, once you've decided your 4 stats (dex,con,wis,other) you shouldn't increase any stat that isn't one of those 4.
Assurance won't give you a consistently high intitiative result. Again, it is rolling a 4 on the dice and will only get weaker as your dexterity and item bonuses increase.
There are several good stealth feat:
Terrain Stalker- no fail scouting in the right terrain.
Quiet Allies- Mathematically this is the only way to even attempt sneaking your whole group through something.
Fast Stealth- good for exploration and encounter mode, and for fleeing and entering combat. Basically insures you can always be using Avoid Notice, even if your party needs to move at full speed, and Avoid Notice is really really good for a rogue with Surprise Attack.
Legendary Sneak- getting around cover and concealment is great. Being able to add another Exploration Activity is also great. This feat is great.
Armored Stealth- if you want to leave strength at 8, this will help the early game and you can retrain out of it once you get +5 Dex mod.
If your gunslinger wants to monoplize wisdom, are they also taking the medicine feats? If not they don't really have Wis on lock. And even if they do, Wis will still be the strongest stat for you on a purely selfish level. Trap Spotting, will saves, and initiative all make it worthwhile even if you never touch the skills.
Is anyone in your party doing charisma? Because with the wizard covering intelligence, someone should really play the face.
Just to add on to other comments:
You definitely want to start with at least a 10 Str and probably a 12 Con.
You should not emphasize Int that much, as you are not taking a multiclass dedication in witch or wizard. A 10 or 12 Int should probably be enough.
You should probably consider starting with a 14 Cha, as well.
This is more of a general comment, but in PF2 one of the main keys to success is in effective use of the three action economy. It is seldom worthwhile to use all three actions to just attack a foe in a round; instead, PCs should usually be using one action out of the three to buff an ally or debuff an enemy.
You will probably find Bon Mot more useful than Assurance (Stealth) at 1st level. Likewise, you will probably get more use out of Tumble Behind than You're Next early on.
Dread Striker is a good choice for a rogue (teamwork!) at 4th level. Intimidation to demoralize remains a reliable debuff, even with the change to Scare to Death. Especially by a barbarian with the Raging Intimidation class feat (and the Intimidating Prowess skill feat); you may want to suggest the barbarian take the multiclass Rogue Dedication and pick up Basic Trickery (You're Next), as they are focusing on Intimidation anyway; they may want to consider Advanced Trickery (Head Stomp), as well for when they trip a foe.
Ability score increases should likely focus on Dex (class DCs, Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery, Ref saves), Con (hp, Fort saves), Str (for increased weapon damage), and Wis (Perception, Medicine, Will saves)/Cha (Diplomacy). Personally, I might go with 3 Str boosts, 2 Wis boosts, and 3 Cha boosts (instead of 4 Str boosts, 2 Wis boosts, 2 Cha boosts); or 2 Str boosts, 2 Wis boosts, 4 Cha boosts if you want to focus on Deception and Diplomacy.
A thief doesn't need get strength to damage, Dragonchess Player.
What weapon will a Thief Rogue ever attack with where having a penalty to strength will matter? Even if you're talking backup ranged weapons you can just use a normal shortbow.
Why is this post before the post I was replying to. This forum is so stupid
A thief doesn't need get strength to damage, Dragonchess Player.
That is only true "when attacking with a finesse melee weapon." Granted, the character will usually be doing so, but that's not the same as "always."
Considering how hard monsters/NPCs hit in PF2e and the action economy benefit of having enemies move, ranged sneak attacks with a short composite bow are probably a good idea to start combats with instead of the PCs rushing in.
A thief doesn't need get strength to damage, Dragonchess Player.That is only true "when attacking with a finesse melee weapon." Granted, the character will usually be doing so, but that's not the same as "always."
Considering how hard monsters/NPCs hit in PF2e and the action economy benefit of having enemies move, ranged sneak attacks with a short composite bow are probably a good idea to start combats with instead of the PCs rushing in.
You'd need 3 boosts to strength before you'd see any benefit from a composite bow. That's a long walk for a short drink of water, and that +1 damage won't really matter by the time it kicks in.
I think putting a single boost to avoid ACP and increase your carrying capacity is fine, but anything beyond that and you should just pick a new racket.
Small notes here:
Everyone keeps mentioning dread striker but I believe for the party composition he has with barbarian perhaps gang up might be better for sneak attack ? Allows you to prime opportune riposte at 8 too.
For assurance:
At level 1 with trained in stealth assurance gives you a result of 13. If you rolled you would be at +7, meaning you would need to roll 6 or above to get better stealth than your assurance.
At level 10, with a greater shadow armor and +5 dex and master in stealth, your assurance would be at 26. Your modifier would be at +23, meaning you would need to roll a 3 or higher to get better stealth than your assurance.
At level 20, with a +3 item bonus to stealth, +7 Dex and legendary in stealth, your assurance will give you 38 in stealth, with your stealth modifier being +38, meaning that you need to roll a 0 on a d20 to get a worst result than your assurance.
This is why people say not to get assurance stealth on rogue. I don't know what that thread was talking about. Maybe it was a thread for assurance for characters that have low Wis and low dex?
For constitution:
You can certainly try to swerve in and out of melee (check out the mobility feat for that) and it's going to be valid in a lot of cases. You're not getting cons for these cases. You're getting cons for when you f@~@ up.
When there's difficult terrain, you're grapple, opposing wizard is casting stinking cloud, large ennemies, close quarters, you name it. There's going to be a ton of scenarios where you having 10 cons is going to get you killed and you'll be left bleeding on the ground thinking "but no, I had these carefully laid plans!!"
Not to mention that when you get opportune backstab at 8 you really want to stay in melee to get more sneak attacks on your target.
With the party as is, I'd recommend going for an elven branched spear as your main weapon so you can reach+gang up.
I'd check with your gunslinger if he'd want to grab the sniping duo archetype with you, as the thief rogue has some of the most reliable attacking patterns, being able to dish out 2/3 highest attack modifier attacks in one round, which is great for Crits, which is great for smiling duo.
My 2 cents !
Small notes here:
Everyone keeps mentioning dread striker but I believe for the party composition he has with barbarian perhaps gang up might be better for sneak attack ? Allows you to prime opportune riposte at 8 too.
For assurance:
At level 1 with trained in stealth assurance gives you a result of 13. If you rolled you would be at +7, meaning you would need to roll 6 or above to get better stealth than your assurance.
At level 10, with a greater shadow armor and +5 dex and master in stealth, your assurance would be at 26. Your modifier would be at +23, meaning you would need to roll a 3 or higher to get better stealth than your assurance.
At level 20, with a +3 item bonus to stealth, +7 Dex and legendary in stealth, your assurance will give you 38 in stealth, with your stealth modifier being +38, meaning that you need to roll a 0 on a d20 to get a worst result than your assurance.
This is why people say not to get assurance stealth on rogue. I don't know what that thread was talking about. Maybe it was a thread for assurance for characters that have low Wis and low dex?
It is actually worse than that, because if you are sneaking in a dungeon almost always have cover by definition, so you've got a +2 circumstance bonus as well. (People really underutilize the cover rules for Avoid Notice and Initiative purposes.)
True true !
Revise my earlier calcs but with 80% more odds to roll above assurance instead of 70% at level 1.
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If you want to leave strength at 8 forever, I recommend using leather armor until 7. You're trading off -1 Armor Class Penalty to keep your AC maxed, which is definitely worth it for melee characters. Let's look at what the ACP applied to:
Acrobatics-- Balance comes up rarely, and is usually a low DC which makes this prime Assurance fodder. If you're going to. D close enough to the fray to use Tumble Through you definitely need the AC more. Maneuver in flight won't come up before level 7. I've never actually seen a Squeeze roll made. The best skill feats for it (Cat Fall, Kip Up) don't even require rolls.
Athletics-- ACP won't apply with Assurance.
Stealth-- Probably your most important skill. But a rogue can afford to take Armored Stealth to avoid the penalty, then retrain later.
Thievery-- the only skill this really hurts in. However, if you're doing it out of combat, you generally just need to succeed before you critically fail. And you may have time to take of and put back on your armor.
So I recommend just eating the ACP instead of the AC penalty, at least if you can fit those skill feats into your build.
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Athletics is wasted on a character without strength. Assurance athletics to trip is vastly overestimated.
The combat optimization metagame for pf2e revolves around getting maximum value out of your reaction attacks, buff/debuff stacking and removing enemy actions. When it comes to rogues, this typically means using the elf spear and getting in opportune backstabs.
That said, your party is far from optimized, so you don't really need to worry about it. Your gm can't go hard without causing a wipe so you should be able to get by with just about anything you want.
For dread striker vs gangup: intimidating strike and demoralize are good, but they have an element of failure that forces you to work around it. Dread striker is more convenient for bow builds cause it works at range.
Gang up only requires you to attack the same target as a melee party member so its much more reliable. That said, why not both !
Explorers clothing, as has been said, is viable just need 20dex.
Prescient planner is fine, it can be convenient. I wouldn't take that line before having toughness/fleet/incredible initiative though.
Hit and run: as a build option pre-8 hit and run works, especially with mobility (although double slice is two actions and hit and run usually requires an action efficient attack like flurry of blows or twin takedown ).
8+, especially 12+ you want to linger in melee because you have opportune backstab and preparation. Opportune backstab+préparation allows you to make 3 attacks at max attack and 1 at -5 in 1 round for absolutely massive damage that is relatively easy to pop.
Athletics is wasted on a character without strength. Assurance athletics to trip is vastly overestimated.
The combat optimization metagame for pf2e revolves around getting maximum value out of your reaction attacks, buff/debuff stacking and removing enemy actions. When it comes to rogues, this typically means using the elf spear and getting in opportune backstabs.
That said, your party is far from optimized, so you don't really need to worry about it. Your gm can't go hard without causing a wipe so you should be able to get by with just about anything you want.
Assurance athletics is for more than just tripping, though. I've never personally used it for maneuvers (though I have seen others use it successfull) but I use it all the time for environmental travel. You can use it for reliable long jumping or Sudden Leaping, climbing great heights without issue, not getting stuck on a freaking ladder, and pretty much never needing to roll a swim check.
None of that impacts the "combat optimization metagame" (which I don't entirely buy existing in a non-competivie game) but it does help open options for Exploration mode. If your rogue can safely climb up a tower and peek inside the windows, they can scope out multiple encounters at nearly no risk and no resource expenditure. Otherwise you'd need a 4th level spell slot to fly or air walk for the same gains. And a thief that gets stimmied by a wall isn't much of a thief.
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For a thief rogue I recommend 18 DEX, 14 CON, 14 WIS. IF you stick with halfling, then 8 STR, 14 CHA and 10 INT.
Using explorer's clothing gets you -1 AC until level 7, which isn't terrible but is less than you want. If it were me, I'd choose leshy and take an INT flaw instead of STR.
My favorite rogue weapons are the shortsword, rapier and any finesse unarmed attack, preferably with agile. The filchers fork isn't bad, but I would never get it without ancestry paragon. Remember you can't get DEX-to-Damage on thrown weapons.
Get the Medic Dedication, since giant instinct barbarians are glass cannons. Invest in the Medicine line of feats, plus whatever DEX, WIS, or CHA skills your party mates don't have covered.
Assurance is good for Medicine and Athletics (since you're low STR), but not Stealth.
Dual Weapon Warrior isn't great for rogue, but Scout is much better.
For Rogue feats, I like Trap Finder and Mobility.
@chromevulture: In case you hadn't noticed yet, PF2 doesn't have a solved metagame. The difference between 'best' and 'good' is rather slim, so picking things for character flavor and lore is completely fine.
Also, retraining is an official option. So if you try out a feat or skill and find that it isn't working for what you want, you can pick a different one - though it does cost some in-game time.
I think like Breithauptclan was saying, your initial build is fine, the rest is just making sure it survives a bit better and gels a bit better with your group?
On your questions:
- Is the Elven weapon familiarity line worth it over the halfling one? The branched spear that was recommended before sounds like an interesting option. However, my original intention was to have the fork as a close range throwing weapon option and the sling staff for long range. Not sure which is better.
A: Sling staff for ranged works but ultimately its advantage is that its a d10 propulsive weapon. It has the reload 1 trait though. A shortbow or longbow would probably serve you just as well. All of these are fine, advantage of elven branched spear is that it has reach and deadly d8, allowing you to gel a bit better with your barbarian, who will also go for reach. This in turn enables your wizard to focus on hard movement control like web or grease, as having reach enables you to hit them in that terrain while they maybe can't reach you.
- If medic is the recommended archetype, should I just drop dual-weapon warrior? I originally planned to pick it up early for double slice (for use on high AC/physically resistant enemies). The archetype also gives some (what I believed to be) great feats later in the game such as dual-weapon blitz and two-weapon flurry.
A: Medic is a great archetype, but you can do out of combat healing fine just with ward medic and continuous recovery. Medic is just a cherry on top. If you want to go dual weapon warrior instead ain't nothing wrong with that.
- Is the giant instinct barbarian truly a glass cannon? Our barbarian player wanted to be a tank who could also deal out damage.
A: The high HP helps, but the -3 AC vs a champion or fighter (full plate is +1 over medium, rage gives -1, clumsy gives -1) means that they get hit a lot more and crit a lot more. There's good odds your barb will eat a lot of dirt.
- Is preparation worth it over bloody debilitation?
A: Depends what you're doing. If you're going for high DPR with gangup+reach+opportune riposte its pretty damn good. If you stick with your skirmish strategy of move, hit, move, then it can be pretty good. Only thing I'd say is that move hit move, without haste, is something you can't do with dual weapon warrior until level 16 AFAIK.
- Is the Shadowdancer archetype good for this build? With free archetype it seems like there is some freedom to take it (only for shadow jump and the dedication).
A: Sounds like a fun build !! I'd play that!
- What runes/weapons should I aim for in later levels?
A: standard potency+ striking runes. If you want to go dual weapon you want dual rings or blazons of shared power. For property runes the standard is elemental runes. Maybe a wounding rune to lean into your bleed ? If you go dread striker maybe the dreadful rune on your armor? A fearsome rune in your weapon to make more frightened things? If you end up with a blunt weapon somehow I like the crushing rune.
Giant Instinct Barbarian actually plays best as a skirmisher poking with reach, at least when it comes to tougher foes.vwith Uncanny Dodge and raging resistance they don't mind being swarmed by lower level enemies, but trying to stand bang with a APL+2 enemy doesn't work great for anyone, much less a character with such a big AC penalty.
But the good news is that they can poke with a huge reach. Getting AoO from fighter and Giant Stature and a reach weapon gives you such a big threat range, you'll be virtually guaranteed to get an AoO every round.
So if both of you play hit and run you'll probably do OK, but that increases the need for you to inflict non-flanking flat footed.
Not to mention making sure everyone in the party trying to get speed boosting items and feats (fleet, boots of striding, etc) and the wizard having some good area closers (wall of stone is the best one but its later, grease and web work fine at lower levels.) if you need to GTFO in a hurry.
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Is the Elven weapon familiarity line worth it over the halfling one? The branched spear that was recommended before sounds like an interesting option. However, my original intention was to have the fork as a close range throwing weapon option and the sling staff for long range. Not sure which is better.
I would stick with a shortbow and any melee weapon. Rogues aren't great for thrown weapons. The branched spear is fine.
BTW, a half-elf halfling isn't RAW and would require GM permission.
- If medic is the recommended archetype, should I just drop dual-weapon warrior? I originally planned to pick it up early for double slice (for use on high AC/physically resistant enemies). The archetype also gives some (what I believed to be) great feats later in the game such as dual-weapon blitz and two-weapon flurry.
Those are good feats, but they're level 10 and 16. Medic will keep you alive till then, especially since your party lacks damage mitigation.
- Is the giant instinct barbarian truly a glass cannon? Our barbarian player wanted to be a tank who could also deal out damage.
'Fraid so. They have a -2 to AC, which resistence to flanking and better HP do little to help. Your friend should play a fighter in full plate if he wants high AC + damage.
- Is preparation worth it over bloody debilitation?
If you have opportune backstab, then yes. Ideally you would have more melee partners, but hey.
- Is the Shadowdancer archetype good for this build? With free archetype it seems like there is some freedom to take it (only for shadow jump and the dedication).
Yes, although I like the other Shadowdancer feats as well.
Heavy Armor is best achieved through a dedication, you'd want to point your Barbarian toward Sentinel over Fighter dedication for that.
You might also want to have them look at shields and one-handed weapons if he really doesn't want to skirmish and instead focus on the frontlines.
"Glass cannon" implies that it's some kind of exceptional damage dealer to make up for its frailty. What you're really doing is trading a lot of durability for a painfully minor damage increase.
Nothing wrong with a longbow. Stowing a bow and drawing two weapons would take 3 actions.
I have found poison to not be remotely worthwhile. Crafting in general is also of little value (because of the rules more than anything else). The wizard might benefit from an Alchemist archetype to make useful low level items daily but that's about it.
Everyone likes to have trick magic item and a longstrider 2 wand for the all-day status bonus to speed. You also need whatever items boost your chosen skills, item bonus to speed, item bonus to perception and doubling rings if dual-wielding. And maxed out weapons of course, typically made of cold iron with silversheen (consumable) if you need to hotswap to silver to exploit weakness or bypass resistance.
For glass canon: as mentionned, yes they will get crit more often, but the rage resistance at 9 helps, but yeah Barb will get laid low pretty fast by monsters with level +3 and the like.
For longbow: yes, but you can get quick draw to help
Poisons: depends on things, its a nice little bonus to damage, but not if your goal is to make many attacks. Ask your GM if they plan to leave a lot of poison as loot? Best way to use it I think, but you don't need poison weapon for that.
For crafting: What's the level of your gloomhaven city? If its a level 6 city and its your only point of shopping GET CRAFTING! get inventor, get craft magic item, get craft alchemical item. If it's a level 20 city because convenience, crafting won't give you much. Crafting solves the access problem it doesn't save money.
I think giant Instinct barbarians can tank fine against groups. Lower level enemies have a hard time punching past the temp HP and DR, and with AoOs and big reach those mooks get wrecked so hard just closing on the barbarian they don't last long in the actual fray. But a shield would definitely help, especially as barbarians don't get great third actions without investing in things like raging renewal or intimidation.
But boss enemies are a different story. I saw our group's barbarian charge a golem who was effectively immobilized. I pointed out the barbarian had the reach to poke the thing without getting into range to be punched back, but the player wanted to get up in the thing's face anyway. Sure enough, they paid the price for it.
Since you have no Heal caster in the group, I'd advise having Battle Medicine ready for that Barbarian.
Poison is... Fine if you're finding it as loot, or have an alchemist who can hand it out for free, but I don't think it is reliable enough to spend money on. Once you have it, though, you can pre-buff weapons with it for DPR improvements with a little luck.
The skill Crafting is actually a pretty credible addition for exploration and encounter mode because it encompasses a lot of stuff. Lots of potential for Recall Knowledge about the environment around you, trap and construct identification, repairs (essential if you have a shield user), and any sort of appraisal check. The Craft downtime activity, on the other hand, is much less broadly useful. The big problem is it uses the same rates as Earn Income but is technically slightly worse. Here are the situations where Craft is a good use of downtime:
--If you're already maxing your Crafting proficiency but not your Lore or Performance proficiency. However, you can also craft goods for the market to simply Earn Income, which is actually more efficient. Unless...
--There are no jobs available at your character level. This is decently likely. Jobs are limited by settlement level. The CRB suggests even a major metropolis won't have jobs above level 10 available. The Craft activity let's you always save money at the rate you'd Earn Income at a task of your character level.
--You have formula access but not purchasing access. Technically the GMG suggests formula and purchase level should both be equal to settlement level, which I think is silly. But there are ways around this: the Inventor feat, digging through libraries, or reverse engineering items you need multiples of like fundamental runes.
The Craft downtime activity, on the other hand, is much less broadly useful. The big problem is it uses the same rates as Earn Income but is technically slightly worse.
To add a third voice to this.
With all proficiencies, item/job levels, and bonuses being equal: Buying an item and spending the days of downtime on Earn Income will get you more benefit than crafting the item. Either fewer days or more money or both.
The benefits of downtime to craft items are as Captain Morgan said - when your proficiencies and bonuses are not equal, Earn Income doesn't have as high of a job level as the item you are crafting, or you can't buy the item but do have the formula for it.
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- Would the giant barbarian be better served taking a dedication to get heavy armour proficiency? I do notice that their proficiency for all armour progresses very slowly, but he really is dead-set on being a giant barbarian. We originally we thought this class would equal a frontliner that can afford to stand in the thick of battle (perhaps not against tough bosses, but still concerning to hear the words glass cannon).
I highly recommend the Sentinel archetype for barbarians, although Heavy Armor Proficiency as good until level 13.
- If I were to take elven weapon familiarity instead of halfling, is the longbow considered a good weapon? Volley shouldn't be too much of a factor since it would only be for long ranged battles. As a side note, we have submitted these builds to the GM and he gave full approval for the variant rules/non RAW decisions made. So any other cool instances or rules would be good to know.
I guess the longbow is fine, but unless y'all are using ABP keeping the runes up to date will be difficult.
- Am I reading it correctly that sheathing a bow and drawing two weapons would cost all 3 actions?
Yup. The Quick Draw feat might be useful.
- Is poison at all worth investing in? It looks sort of bad, but there will likely be ample opportunity to purchase/craft it (as well as opportunities to poison weapons before fighting)
Not really. It costs gp to create, actions to apply, targets get a fort save (and high Fort saves are common
- For that matter, is crafting worth investing in? Our Wizard will likely be busy crafting scrolls and wands, so I could potentially create healing or alchemical items if they are good.
Crafting is only good if you are higher level than the settlement you're in.
- Speaking of boots of speed, are there any other essential items that I or my party should aim for?
You may like the boots and cloak of elvenkind. Any item that boosts a skill you like is also good.
Well if you're going gnome shield and full plate that just screams gnome flickmace to me as it's the best weapon in the game so far.
1 handed, flail group, reach, d8 damage, excellent weapon. Not to mention it's blunt damage so it's eligible for a crushing rune (very cheap very good early game rune) and blunt damage is the best of the 3 as it's the most consistent one, specially at lower levels.
For tower shield I've never really seen the use for it, it takes 2 actions to have the better bonus and they're not sturdier. I'd stick with a heavy steel shield.
As far as equipment:
Crushing rune if you have bludgeoning
Sturdy shield ASAP (level 4 item)
Make sure to keep up on your fundamental runes
Maybe a health belt? Or some juggernault mutagens if someone grabs alchemist dedication.
Thanks for all the clarifications. I think my character is all ready for the session and I'm grateful for the detailed answers. Just one more set of questions for our barbarian (sorry for being off-topic):
- He is definitely planning on using a shield and heavy armour, is there anything else he should be doing/equipping/building to survive these battles?
- What is the best shield to use? He wants to use a tower shield and use shield block as much as possible (once we have the money to replace/fix them).
- He wants to use the gnome hooked hammer to trip enemies and two-hand when he rages. Is this an acceptable weapon for a barbarian? What is the best reach weapon for when he is raging?
Toughness feat, not ending his turn in reach of enemies so they burn an action to move
Study shield is the only shield worth using if you plan to use shield block. Tower shields are only useful at level 12+ and only on fighters with the paragon guard feat or level 20 shield ally champions with their capstone feat and only for the +4 AC, not for blocking.
Keep in mind that even if his plan is to rage, drop the shield, and then two-hand the weapon, that's two actions to do. Best to just pick a style and stick to it. Since his plan is to trip, either skip the shield and use a guisarme or meteor hammer or use a buckler to keep a free hand for trips.
Is the barbarian player sure he doesn't want to just play a fighter with the barbarian archetype? It sounds like it might fit his idea of how he wants to play the game better.
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Rage isn't something you only do sometimes. It's ideally something you have up most of every fight. So I don't think dropping your shield to 2h a weapon situationally makes a ton of sense.
Ideally, you want a sturdy shield and a regular 1h weapon that you simply use as your gear of choice... or just use a 2h weapon.
That said there's nothing really wrong with a hook hammer per se.
Other options include the khopesh, which gives you d8 and trip, a whip which drops you to a d4 but gives you reach and trip while still using a shield. A flickmace is the best 1h reach option but doesn't have trip.
Guisarme if he decides to not use a shield and stick to a 2h weapon is a great pick.
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- He is definitely planning on using a shield and heavy armour, is there anything else he should be doing/equipping/building to survive these battles?
Trick Magic Item + Wand of 2nd-level Longstrider + trained in Nature to mitagate speed loss. In fact, that's great for the rogue too. Also, the wizard should cast haste so that the barbarian has enough actions to Stride, Strike, and Raise Shield
- What is the best shield to use? He wants to use a tower shield and use shield block as much as possible (once we have the money to replace/fix them).
Shield block isn't great, but if you're going to use it then you need a Sturdy Shield.
- He wants to use the gnome hooked hammer to trip enemies and two-hand when he rages. Is this an acceptable weapon for a barbarian? What is the best reach weapon for when he is raging?
Switching weapons isn't practical. Choose a gnome flickmace instead.
The rules are a little vague on whether shields have to be strapped on or can just be held. Most GMs seem to allow either as long as you're consistent. Strapping is better if you get knocked out, but holding is best if you plan to drop it to two handed a weapon. (Holding is a free action to drop, so you just lose one action regripping.)
Shields come in three varieties:
Blockers. If you want to block multiple times in a fight, you basically need study shields or just.
Droppers. Things like Shield Warden with riders on the block. They won't last as long so you want to be able to switch it up once they break.
Holders. Spell guard shield is the best example. You don't want to block with it because the passive bonuses are so good.