So after looking at a char gen app for so long and almost going cross eyed, figured make an account and ask for a little help.
With the inclusion of gun rules in pathfinder, I've always liked the idea of taming the mystics with well intentioned science, but unfortunately never got to play said character. But with me recently moving to an area with more gamers, might get a shot soon.
The original idea is lost to time, but with that comes additional material to draw upon. So the basics, I'm looking at a Gunslinger(Musket Master) and Inquisitor(Sanctified Slayer) build, the general idea being an assassin whose ideals conform to their deity. I know guns are not the best for sniping and such, but I'm overriding that with the rule of cool.
Starting stats are currently at:
Str: 10
Dex: 13(racial bonus here)
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 12
It's kind of a safe stat arrangement for now, but open to suggestions. I have it a little spread out to cover skills and having a negative in STR sounds bad for carrying gear and looting while negative Con sounds like courting death.
Where I have issues currently deal with the levels, specifically how many and where to take them. I currently have 4 builds being thrown around with the same feats being used, but placement varying. The builds are Human with 1 level of gunslinger rest inquisitors, 5 levels gunslinger rest inquisitors and other 2 are nonhuman with same levels spread.
What I currently have as the feats:
------------------------------------1H,---2H,---1N,---2N
Point Blank Shot------------1st Level
Precise Shot------------------Humans 1st, rest 3rd
Expert Sniper----------------11th--3rd---19th--11th
Deadly Aim-------------------5th---5th---7th---7th
Weapon Focus--------------3rd---6th---5th---5th
Martial Focus----------------7th---7th---11th--6th
Far Shot-----------------------9th---13th--9th---13th
Vital Strike--------------------9th---9th---9th---9th
Burrowing Shot-------------13th--11th--13th--13th
Improved Vital Strike-----15th--13th--15th--15th
Anatomical Savant---------17th--15th--17th--17th
Improved Precise Shot---17th--19th--17th--19th
Free Parking------------------19th--17th--XXXX--XXXX
(1H is Human 1 level, 2H is 5 levels, 1N Non-Human 1 level, 2N is 5 levels)
If you suggest getting rid of Burrowing Shot, then also swap out Martial Focus please as it is a feat tax.
I'm partial to the 5 levels of Gunslinger with how the feats roll out on both of them and that there's a 4th iterative, albeit +1 BaB, for when stealth is no longer at play and need to hammer in shots. It does however push back Bane and Greater Bane as class skills and access to Named Bullet as a spell, but I do get to add Dex to damage and more stuff to use Grit with.
What I'm looking for isn't really munchkinning the build to max out efficiency, just that if I play in a normal group where we each have a solid build, will I fall behind and be a burden and liability or keep pace with a build like this.
I'm also looking for suggestions on teamwork feats as there are a lot I can take, but only so many work in range while I'm the only one benefiting. Thank you for your time.
15 point build? Seems really light on stats to be a 20. Also not sure why you think int is more important that dex. But I guess you NEED a 14 int for some reason so lets not change that, right?
But seriously, put the 16 in Dex, and the 13 in Wis. Put your first stat point from advancement into wis, and the rest into dex. By the time you get 4th level spells you'll be able to get a +2 wisdom item so you can cast 6th level spells. You also want a +6 dex item, preferably a dex/con belt.
I recommend going to 5th level as a Gunslinger to get the dex to damage. Unless you insist on sticking with a 13 dex. It isn't worth a 5 level dip to get +1 damage.
Somewhere around 8th level you should be able to afford a +2 weapon. But what you want is a +1 weapon with a +1 enhancement on it. The two obvious choices are Seeking which helps you hit invisible stuff and ignore mirror image and other forms of concealment. The second obvious choice is Shadowshooting which lets you shoot without reloading. Both are +1 enhancements.
If you wanted to play risky you could retrain Rapid Reload into something else if you take Shadowshooting. But you might want to keep it for 2 reason. Shadowshooting is an illusion which can be disbelieved. If successful it reduces the damage to 20%. And sometimes you might want to use special ammo.
The one thing I don't understand is why you want to snipe. Sniping is really only good when you combine it with sneak attack. Without those bonus dice, its more favorable to take your full attack routine, which makes Shadowshooting more valuable. If you go this route replace Vital Strike with Rapid Fire.
So the 13 in Dex is before racial benefits, but with that indication being the one I would want most like if I choose human or half elf, I'd choose Dex or a race that auto has a Dex bonus, that way starting would be 15 unless a race was put forward that doesn't have a Dex bonus for some reason. So it is a full 20 point build. My bad on forgetting to say that.
The int is a situation of a good amount of skills is needed, which can be trimmed, but honestly a 14 is as high as needed and allows for some diversity so figured just have it be there from the beginning.
Then yeah, Dex gets all of the stat points to increase to 20 in the end. So level 4 before I'd even have the chance to get dex to damage be a +3.
Seeking is one I thought about for sure, shadowshooting I kinda forgot about due to free action to reload, distance is a much and the idea of tailwind was given to me from a friend as a way of adding 60 feet before range increments.
As for why Sniper? I've done many melee fighters of different styles, the machine gun archer is a staple and so on and so forth. But I've never made a true attempt to make a one shot one kill type so might as well try.
There's also sneak attack dice involved from sanctified slayer with 4d6 or 6d6 depending on build with taking the Clandestine Inquisition as a solid way to set up sneak attack more often.
Then with 5 levels how do you do progression? An idea that comes to mind is Gunslinger first for full 10 UP and start with a gun and then Inquisitor right afterwards to add spells into the mix, with 2 levels of gunslinger, 1 inquisitor and last 2 levels of gunslinger.
First, the stats: if you're getting a +2 from human or half-human race always arrange your stats so that it falls in the ability score you want to be highest. It's just the most efficient way in a point-buy. Also if your spells are going to be mostly self-buffs a 16 in your casting stat is a waste. You can afford a slightly lower Str, just get a handy haversack ASAP. With a d8 HD I strongly recommend 12+ Con. I suggest Str 8, Dex 16+2=18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10 to start with.
So many things depend on class level for an inquisitor that 5 levels in gunslinger is horrible. Bane, studied target as a sanctified slayer, and most importantly both the rate at which you gain spells and your caster level with them - named bullet is much more effective both because of a higher damage bonus with full caster level, and a reduced chance of spell resistance stopping it! Basically better spells & caster level whether with divine favor/power, named bullet or other spells will make up for not getting dex to damage.
For teamwork feats note friendly fire maneuvers (makes improved precise shot unecessary), escape route (to get out of melee safely) and maybe lookout (to help guarantee you act in the surprise round).
Blazrath wrote: So the 13 in Dex is before racial benefits, but with that indication being the one I would want most like if I choose human or half elf, I'd choose Dex or a race that auto has a Dex bonus, that way starting would be 15 unless a race was put forward that doesn't have a Dex bonus for some reason. So it is a full 20 point build. My bad on forgetting to say that. Is there any mechanical reason why you have Cha 12? You could easily dump it and take Empathic Diplomat/Cunning Liar or Student of Philosophy to get social skills to key off your other mental attributes.
20 point buy
Str 10, Dex 16(+2), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 7
Blazrath wrote: As for why Sniper? I've done many melee fighters of different styles, the machine gun archer is a staple and so on and so forth. But I've never made a true attempt to make a one shot one kill type so might as well try. Well, have you run the numbers to see if you're close to fulfilling your goal of "one shot one kill"? Pathfinder doesn't really support that kind of playstyle, and I'm having trouble seeing your expected damage with one shot staying relevant.
Let me run an alternative character at you that sort of accomplishes your goals.
unRogue Firearm build.
Str 10 Dex 16 (+2) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 10 Human.
Start off being a dagger melee/throw build. Maybe carry a shortbow as well. Goal is to switch to Firearms around level 8 when you can afford a +1 shadowshooting musket(riffle) so you can skip all of the reload/ammo nonsense.
Feats/Rogue Talents:
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Canny Observer or Fast Stealth
3: Rapid Fire, Rogue Finesse: Dagger
4: Firearm Training (rogue talent)
5: Weapon Focus: Musket (or Riffle if GM allows)
6: Grit (rogue talent) - Quick Clear Deed.
7: Leadership
8+ Anything that comes to mind, Accomplished Sneak Attacker is probably a good idea. Avoid Improved Precise Shot, get Seeking Enchantment which does IPShot better than the feat.
So you are probably thinking: Why Leadership? Well, there is a really sneaky thing you can do but you'll want a follower or Familiar to help you do it. If you're target can't see you, it is flat footed to you. How can you see it but not be seen? Become invisible...which only works for a single shot. If you can see through fog you can stand 10' deep in fog and get your full round attacks. So buy either Fog-cutting Lenses or a Goz Mask (Goz is better) for 8,000gp (or have your Wizard Cohort craft them for 4k).
Make your follower a wizard or sorcerer. Have the cohort cast Fog Cloud on your location. 95% of monsters can't see you. Eventually the cohort will be able to cast Haste and Greater Invisibility. Also Deeper Darknes could be good if you prepare for it.
Or you could think about getting a Familiar or use Animal Handling to train a monkey to blow a horn on command. Now get a Horn of Fog and have your monkey blow it every round.
Or just get a Ever-smoking jar and unstopper that at the beginning of combat. Other PCs might not like it since the smoke covers a huge area.
avr wrote: So many things depend on class level for an inquisitor that 5 levels in gunslinger is horrible. Bane, studied target as a sanctified slayer, and most importantly both the rate at which you gain spells and your caster level with them - named bullet is much more effective both because of a higher damage bonus with full caster level, and a reduced chance of spell resistance stopping it! Basically better spells & caster level whether with divine favor/power, named bullet or other spells will make up for not getting dex to damage.
For teamwork feats note friendly fire maneuvers (makes improved precise shot unecessary), escape route (to get out of melee safely) and maybe lookout (to help guarantee you act in the surprise round).
So those are good points and I did think about that. Bane does key off of Inquisitor level and you are losing 5 to 10 damage on a normal hit. There is the bane magical item that adds 5 levels to your Inquisitor class so you can make it up there, but it takes up a body slot and other stuff can be in competition for that.
Studied target, unless I drop gunslinger altogether, is at most a +4 cause it's at level 15 and 20 respectively for their bumps.
Spells and Caster levels I really don't have a fix around, but if I don't go down to at least level 3 then the fastest a musket can be reloaded is a movement action, then there's a bonus combat feat after that and then might as well pick up dex to damage at that point to add 4 unconditional damage, up to +9 with your stats array. But it does push back named bullet and doesn't allow for 6th level spells, so I can understand that being a good case for a lvl 1 dip.
Friendly Fire maneuvers is the one I plan on using the Inquisitors ability to swap around to good use, having it on the second teamwork feat until it's time to solidify the choice and then swapping it out. While it's good, doesn't improved precise shot give me all that, plus if it's normal concealmeant and cover not created by my ally?
wonderstell wrote: Is there any mechanical reason why you have Cha 12? You could easily dump it and take Empathic Diplomat/Cunning Liar or Student of Philosophy to get social skills to key off your other mental attributes. Not really, but out of those Cunning Liar is the only one of real benefit as I didn't put much into diplomacy, but rather bluff and disguise as back up in case. Becomes an issue of where to put a feat like that where it's beneficial while also shifting everything up one slot almost.
As for damage, let's combine everything at 20th level to get an idea, using gunslinger 5 as the example. Musket is d12 x4, deadly shot is +10, studied target is +4, Dex let's go low and say +7, +5 enhancement, martial focus +1. So each normal hit is 1d12+27.
Then you add the extra damage. If you caught them unaware, that's 4d6 for sneak attack damage. Got time to study and identify the target? Throw on a greater bane for 4d6+30. Then vital strike for that one shot with extra damage, you have 2d12. So all of those able to go off, you have 3d12+8d6+57.
Last thing to do is use named bullet, which you could (most likely) get a crit confirmed on a flat footed touch attack due to being sneaky and using range increments. That confirmation brings it to 6d12+8d6+228. With just the plus I'm already hitting more than my max hp with full damage at 348. Now there's ways around it for sure, but that can be said with every other build.
Oh cool, it did submit my reply. My bad, I'll edit it reply to you Meirril when I get the chance
Blazrath wrote: Not really, but out of those Cunning Liar is the only one of real benefit as I didn't put much into diplomacy, but rather bluff and disguise as back up in case. Becomes an issue of where to put a feat like that where it's beneficial while also shifting everything up one slot almost. Oh, they're not feats. They're traits.
You know, those little "half-feats" that are supposed to give flavor to your character. You normally start with two of them.
Blazrath wrote: As for damage, let's combine everything at 20th level to get an idea, using gunslinger 5 as the example. Musket is d12 x4, deadly shot is +10, studied target is +4, Dex let's go low and say +7, +5 enhancement, martial focus +1. So each normal hit is 1d12+27.
Then you add the extra damage. If you caught them unaware, that's 4d6 for sneak attack damage. Got time to study and identify the target? Throw on a greater bane for 4d6+30. Then vital strike for that one shot with extra damage, you have 2d12. So all of those able to go off, you have 3d12+8d6+57.
Last thing to do is use named bullet, which you could (most likely) get a crit confirmed on a flat footed touch attack due to being sneaky and using range increments. That confirmation brings it to 6d12+8d6+228. With just the plus I'm already hitting more than my max hp with full damage at 348. Now there's ways around it for sure, but that can be said with every other build.
I'm not exactly clear on how greater bane added +30 to damage. But bane damage can critically hit, so you'd add 20d6 (16+sneak attack) on your total damage.
But with a caster level of 15 you'll only have a 25% chance of piercing a CR 20's spell resistance. Which isn't exactly reliable.
And before level 20, for example lv 6, 11 and 16, how does your damage look then? Are you okay with only achieving the "one shot one kill" theme first at level 16-20?
Sorry, I crossed the streams a little. It's named bullet that grants the extra damage, not bane. And that's not multiplied so the damage is less with 228 dropping to 123. I shot from the hip not rechecking couple things, my bad. And I thought dice were not multiplied on Crist, so if that's true makes up some of the loss.
So level 16 is similar with the main difference being greater bane not kicked in yet, but Named Bullet starting level 15, 3d6 sneak attack, and minor changes so 6d12+5d6/11d6(based on if bane multiplies)+around 100(it's a small difference here in all honesty).
11 is a little different. No improved vital, 2d6 sneak attack, no named bullet. That's where it's 2d12+4d6+around 13. And with that I'm seeing why gunslinger 5 is a bad call now... hahahahahah.
Wonderstell wrote: But bane damage can critically hit, so you'd add 20d6 (16+sneak attack) on your total damage. I'm not finding any reference to this, where did you find this at?
Blazrath wrote: Wonderstell wrote: But bane damage can critically hit, so you'd add 20d6 (16+sneak attack) on your total damage. I'm not finding any reference to this, where did you find this at? I looked it up, and it seems I've misunderstood a clarification.
The bonus damage from the increased enhancement bonus of bane would be multiplied on a critical hit, but not the d6's.
So you were correct the first time, no multiplying the bane.
Quote: Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. *
Btw, only the Greater version of Named Bullet gives twice your caster level in bonus damage.
Yep, which is why I dropped the damage to 15 in the calculation, not 30. And why looking at a 5 level dip in gunslinger for this really crippling in all honesty. When I did this originally, I did first level, 20 then 16 and in naivety assumed that it would just scale somewhat to form, maybe a slower rate. But looking at this the 5 level dip makes it mediocre and then has a big jump around total level 15 where 4th level spells come into play, but thats not really a good plan.
Pushing everything back a level seems to be fine though, with bane kicking in level 6, named bullet at 11 and Greater Bane at 13 with a total of 6d6 for sneak attack damage. Then having Greater Named Bullet as an option too with it all and a lackluster capstone is gone.
Just to compare the rogue build I put out above could take Accomplished Sneak Attacker at 9th and Deadly Aim at 11th. Grab Powerful Sneak at 8th and Deadly Sneak at 10th so your minimum damage on a sneak attack is a 3 per dice.
So at 11th level assuming you have a +4 dex belt, sniper's goggles, and a +1 shadowshooting reliable seeking riffle you would do +11/+11/+6 with an extra attack with haste from the cohort starting on the second round. Damage is 1d10+6(deadly aim)+1(enhancement)+7d6(sneak, reroll 1's and 2's). Within 30' add +1 to hit, +1(point blank)+14(sniper's goggles) to damage.
Assuming your target has the typical bad touch AC we're talking 3 hits on the first round, and 4 from when you get haste. Since most GMs lets your cohort go on your initiative you should always let him cast first. That comes out to an average of 35 per hit for a total of 105 on the first round, 140 once you get haste.
Sorry Meirril, I didn't mean to ignore your idea, it's just was an unspoken rule in my old gaming group to never take Leadership feat so I literally never looked at it and needed to put myself through a crash course on it.
Anyways, the idea seems cool and can be very helpful. From your build it seems like there's not a real way to increase touch a.c. attack past the first range increment as the sniper goggles and the scope as far as I can tell do not stack.
Then I might be wrong, but isn't after the first attack hits it's no longer a sneak attack and therefore lose the damage dice for further iterative attacks? The wizard cohort definitely seems to help with additional rounds after the first to get sneak attacks though.
An idea was thrown at me from a friend to go for a feat called Impressive Grit to get the deed Dead Shot to replace vital strike build in here, but I haven't got a clue as to how Named Shot would factor in, if at all, for such a deal as each attack that hits is a crit threat, but does it do crit damage on each attack.
Past that the feedback is useful in cutting a really rough rock down.
Lets try to answer these in order.
1) instead of leadership you can literally take animal training and train a monkey to blow a horn of fog on command. Then you'll need to make skill checks during combat to get the monkey to do it. Anything with hands would work.
Or you could kick out of the Horn of Fog idea and go with an Ever Smoking Bottle. The problem with that is it covers such a huge area that nobody will be able to see without some magical help.
2) Snipers Goggles lets you do sneak attacks at any range. Normal rules say sneak attack has a max range of 30'. Also if you can use an Advanced Firearm like a Riffle it gets touch attacks in the first 5 range increments instead of just the first like a musket.
3) To do a sneak attack you need the target to be flat footed or have flanking. If you hide they can't see you, so they become flat footed. As soon as you make an attack the target knows your location. If they have line of sight to you, they see you.
The reason fog, smoke, 2 levels of darkness and Improved Invisibility work for multiple attacks is because the target can't get line of sight to you if they don't have a special sense that allows them to.
Traditional sniping requires you to make a standard action single attack which reveals your location. Then you use a move action to stealth 5-10' into other cover to hide again. Some feats and items can make this a little easier, but I like the combination of Smoke/Fog and an item that lets you see through it. Very few creatures can cope with fog and you don't need to stealth at all if they can't see you. It doesn't matter that they know exactly what square you are in. And you can move 5' as part of your full round attack.
4) You'll need a BAB of 11 to take Impressive Grit, and 1 or more levels of Gunslinger class. A pure inquisitor would have a BAB of 11 at 15th level. It is a 3/4 BAB class so for every 4 levels of a full BAB class you take you'll reduce the minimum level by 1. So that means you'll come on line with that feat at 13-15th level? Also dead shot will only increase your damage by 1d12 for each extra hit past the first. Also since it is a full round action you won't be able to use Vital Shot or use a move action to use stealth for the next rounds attack. If you can hit with -5 and -10 you'll get an extra 2d12 damage with your musket. I don't think its all that great to be honest. But it does mean you only load the gun once.
Re reloading: If you're planning to fire only one shot per round there's a cheap magic item, the beneficial bandolier, which can load a firearm as a swift action. And/or a dragoon musket can be fired 3 times before needing to be reloaded.
Improved precise shot can be better than friendly fire maneuvers, but you get free teamwork feats and not free general or combat feats. Once you have FF maneuvers there's not enough benefit in improved precise shot for it to be worth one of your precious general feats. Get the seeking enchantment on your gun instead.
I think you might be looking too far ahead in some ways. A bane baldric at 10th level (gunslinger 5/inquisitor 5) is as good as being a 10th level inquisitor for bane, but in order to qualify for 'when using her bane and greater bane abilities' you first have to have those abilities. A gunslinger 1/inquisitor X first gets that ability at 6th level, 4 levels earlier. Similarly with greater bane at inquisitor level 12 (character level 13 w/gunslinger 1, character level 17 w/gunslinger 5).
Another place to look is the alchemist alternate class the gun-chemist. When mixed with gunslinger you can have a lot of fun and dish out a lot of damage in one shot. Also the use of alchemical ammo does not hurt your misfire chance.
Meirril wrote: Lets try to answer these in order.
1) instead of leadership you can literally take animal training and train a monkey to blow a horn of fog on command. Then you'll need to make skill checks during combat to get the monkey to do it. Anything with hands would work.
Or you could kick out of the Horn of Fog idea and go with an Ever Smoking Bottle. The problem with that is it covers such a huge area that nobody will be able to see without some magical help.
Nah, I understand that and like the idea. I was just saying that as a "I don't have experience with that feat, so I needed time to read up on it". With a new potential gaming group, could see that being viable. But I got the concept, having an npc help create concealment.
Meirril wrote: 2) Snipers Goggles lets you do sneak attacks at any range. Normal rules say sneak attack has a max range of 30'. Also if you can use an Advanced Firearm like a Riffle it gets touch attacks in the first 5 range increments instead of just the first like a musket. True, just need to find a gm that would allow that for higher levels gameplay.
3 is a good explanation of the rules that I didn't realize I didn't have a good grasp on. And with that, it would make it to where each iterative attack in a single round would have the sneak attack dice?
4) I was just proposing this as a switch in to remove Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike, thus allowing some feats to be shifted down to be useful at a sooner time. Though it is full round and is only so many dice.
AVR, totally agree with you now on the 5 levels of Gunslinger being a deathblow to the build after running numbers. As for improved precise shot, if improved precise shot was being acquired by a slayer talent, is it worth it then? If not, which 2 talents would work well with this then.
Blazrath wrote:
3 is a good explanation of the rules that I didn't realize I didn't have a good grasp on. And with that, it would make it to where each iterative attack in a single round would have the sneak attack dice?
As long as you can maintain total concealment from your target the entire iterative attacks will get sneak attack. This is the reason why Invisibility grants 1 sneak attack, and Improved Invisibility lets you get sneak attack with a full round of attacks. The reason is you lose Total Concealment from Invisibility the first time you attack, while you maintain Total Concealment with Improved Invisibility. The same applies to Stealth. Stealth lets you get Total Concealment in situations you would only have normal Concealment (or Cover).
The other part of this formula you need to keep in mind is the target needs to be visible. If the target has concealment or cover, you lose the sneak attack damage.
The whole reason the target loses dex to AC is because they can't react to attacks they can't see. If they have some other sense that could let them attack you, you'll need flanking or for them to become flat footed by some other circumstance.
If you're still looking at one shot per round then ranged feint & improved feint work. If you're dropping that idea then deadly aim/clustered shots are good. Deadly aim/snap shot could be fun to use either way. Or you could use those slayer talents for rogue talents and get combat trick (whatever) and maybe slow reactions.
But yes, rapid reload/IPS is a valid choice too. It leaves you with even less teamwork feats you want but that's not its fault.
Horas Ebonfeather wrote: Another place to look is the alchemist alternate class the gun-chemist. When mixed with gunslinger you can have a lot of fun and dish out a lot of damage in one shot. Also the use of alchemical ammo does not hurt your misfire chance. This looks like something fun and could be spun into it's own thing, I'll keep that for a different character, maybe a pistol user.
avr wrote: If you're still looking at one shot per round then ranged feint & improved feint work. If you're dropping that idea then deadly aim/clustered shots are good. Deadly aim/snap shot could be fun to use either way. Or you could use those slayer talents for rogue talents and get combat trick (whatever) and maybe slow reactions.
But yes, rapid reload/IPS is a valid choice too. It leaves you with even less teamwork feats you want but that's not its fault.
Feint could be fun to add in, clustered shots I would probably swap in and take out vital strike stuff so even more open slots, snap shot I've never been a real fan of it and I can't place a reason why right now.
IPS is definitely on the chopping block and could be dropped, while rapid reload I kinda go back and forth.
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