Is there a way to get doubling rings to work with two ranged weapons, or an alternative item that does the same job?
I'm thinking of a Pistolero with two hand crossbows or two Dueling Pistols
Would adding a Reinforced Stock help at all?
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Doubling rings? No.
Alternative item? Yes. Blazons of Shared Power.
The function isn't exactly the same. The blazons will work for exactly 2 weapons. Not for one weapon and whatever you draw in your other hand (important to some of the ways that doubling rings are used).
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Doubling rings? No.
Alternative item? Yes. Blazons of Shared Power.
The function isn't exactly the same. The blazons will work for exactly 2 weapons. Not for one weapon and whatever you draw in your other hand (important to some of the ways that doubling rings are used).
Link: Blazons of Shared Power
I'll note that investing both the Blazons and the Rings will let you power a single ranged weapon or any one-handed melee weapon from one magical melee weapon. (I like having options.)
Does an attachment like a bayonet or stock make a ranged weapon a melee weapon. It doesn't say that explicitly but that is what it does. Thereby enabling Doubling Rings?
Does an attachment like a bayonet or stock make a ranged weapon a melee weapon. It doesn't say that explicitly but that is what it does. Thereby enabling Doubling Rings?
They have to be melee to have finesse: "You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. This doesn't make the ranged weapon a melee weapon though, JUST the attached weapon much like a shield boss doesn't transfer anything to a shield bash with a shield. As far as I can tell, you're only wielding the ranged weapon and Attached allows for you to attack with attachments to things you wield: it never says you are actually wielding the attachment.
That said, for simplicity I'd handwave it and say you wield it but the rules are funky about it.
Huh. It looks like (at least technically) Blazons of Shared Power (lvl 11 version) even transfers over property runes that normally would not be available to the second weapon type (like, say, disrupting, spell-storing, or dancing on a ranged weapon).
I'm not sure exactly what mechanical problem you are trying to overcome, so I'll mention the Gunner's Bandolier. It lets you share one set of runes with up to four one-handed firearms or crossbows, but only one weapon at a time.
If you are more focused on having cheap way to have a variety of enchanted weapons rather than specifically wanting to use two at a time, this is a good choice.
Huh. It looks like (at least technically) Blazons of Shared Power (lvl 11 version) even transfers over property runes that normally would not be available to the second weapon type (like, say, disrupting, spell-storing, or dancing on a ranged weapon).
This would be the case if not for the following rider in Blazons.
A set of greater blazons of shared power also replicates property runes from the primary weapon, so long as the secondary weapon meets all the prerequisites for a given rune and isn't a specific weapon. The secondary weapon gains the benefits of those runes. All of its own runes are suppressed. When you invest the blazons, you can elect for them to transfer only fundamental runes, in which case they function as standard blazons of shared power.
So no transferring properties that normally would not be available on a ranged weapon.
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I'm not sure exactly what mechanical problem you are trying to overcome, so I'll mention the Gunner's Bandolier. It lets you share one set of runes with up to four one-handed firearms or crossbows, but only one weapon at a time.
If you are more focused on having a variety of enchanted weapons to choose from rather than specifically using two at a time, this is a good choice.
Now I'm wondering if there is a sort of "transitive property" for these rune-sharing items.
Imagine you had a pair of firearms with Blazons but no runes, and you attuned the primary firearm (but not the secondary) to the Bandolier. If you drew both firearms, what would happen?
The Bandolier's runes would obviously transfer from the Bandolier to the primary weapon, but would those runes then also duplicate onto the secondary through the Blazons? I don't see a rule that would override the normal functioning of the Blazons, but maybe I'm missing something.
If it does work then you could have up to four pairs of weapons all powered by a single set of runes. (Of course you would have to buy a set of Blazons for each pair, but 52 gp per set is pretty cheap compared to the cost of runes.)
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Now I'm wondering if there is a sort of "transitive property" for these rune-sharing items.Imagine you had a pair of firearms with Blazons but no runes, and you attuned the primary firearm (but not the secondary) to the Bandolier. If you drew both firearms, what would happen?
The Bandolier's runes would obviously transfer from the Bandolier to the primary weapon, but would those runes then also duplicate onto the secondary through the Blazons? I don't see a rule that would override the normal functioning of the Blazons, but maybe I'm missing something.
If it does work then you could have up to four pairs of weapons all powered by a single set of runes. (Of course you would have to buy a set of Blazons for each pair, but 52 gp per set is pretty cheap compared to the cost of runes.)
Hmm. This is an interesting thought. I don't think "attuned" is very well defined, or at least I've never seen a limit to how many things an item can be attuned to.
The only quibble that I have with using Blazons with a Gunner's Bandolier is the following wording:
...the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.
So, do the Bandolier's runes count as being "on the primary weapon" where Blazons are concerned? Hard to say.
I probably wouldn't allow it personally, as it is basically a way of bypassing the limit of 4 weapons on the Bandolier. Anything that bypasses a restriction, without specifically saying that it bypasses that restriction anyway, is usually a no go for me. Unless it is hilariously overpriced or something similar.
Hmm. This is an interesting thought. I don't think "attuned" is very well defined, or at least I've never seen a limit to how many things an item can be attuned to.
I'm not sure what you mean. The Bandolier is pretty clear about how its attunement works.
When you invest the gunner's bandolier, you can attune it to each of the 4 weapons holstered in it.
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The only quibble that I have with using Blazons with a Gunner's Bandolier is the following wording:
...the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.So, do the Bandolier's runes count as being "on the primary weapon" where Blazons are concerned? Hard to say.
That's the question. I note that the language for the Bandolier seems to support the idea that the actual runes, not just the effects or benefits of the runes, transfer to the activated weapon and are removed when another weapon is activated.
You empower one of the attuned weapons in the bandolier, granting it the runes etched onto the gunner's bandolier and removing the runes from any previously drawn weapon.
The Rings also seem to actually refer to replicating the runes rather than just duplicating their effects.
When you wield a melee weapon in the hand wearing the golden ring, the weapon’s fundamental runes are replicated onto any melee weapon you wield in the hand wearing the iron ring.
That's a little different from the language of the Blazons which reference the benefits of the runes rather than the runes themselves.
As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.
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As far as too much power is concerned, consider that the action economy for doing this really wouldn't be great in combat. To switch a pair of weapons you'd have to put the current pair away (or drop them and maybe lose those Blazons), draw the new pair, and activate the primary weapon. It wouldn't let you quickly switch weapons like in the Matrix lobby shootout. It would mostly just give you several options at the start of combat - which is what the Bandolier is intended to do.
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This would be the case if not for the following rider in Blazons.
So no transferring properties that normally would not be available on a ranged weapon.
That's...
I'm legitimately confused as to how I missed that.
Thank you for the correction.
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Hmm. This is an interesting thought. I don't think "attuned" is very well defined, or at least I've never seen a limit to how many things an item can be attuned to.I'm not sure what you mean. The Bandolier is pretty clear about how its attunement works.
When you invest the gunner's bandolier, you can attune it to each of the 4 weapons holstered in it.
Oh, I get how Attunement works in regards to the bandolier, it's just that the term "Attunement" isn't really used in too many other rules, so we have a small number of examples to judge how this application of attunement should work. In other words attunement isn't a trait and doesn't have a system definition we can use to judge if an item can be attuned to multiple things at the same time. Nothing says no, but nothing says yes either. Leaving it gray.
Snip for BrevityThat's the question. I note that the language for the Bandolier seems to support the idea that the actual runes, not just the effects or benefits of the runes, transfer to the activated weapon and are removed when another weapon is activated.
You empower one of the attuned weapons in the bandolier, granting it the runes etched onto the gunner's bandolier and removing the runes from any previously drawn weapon.The Rings also seem to actually refer to replicating the runes rather than just duplicating their effects.
When you wield a melee weapon in the hand wearing the golden ring, the weapon’s fundamental runes are replicated onto any melee weapon you wield in the hand wearing the iron ring.That's a little different from the language of the Blazons which reference the benefits of the runes rather than the runes themselves.
As long as you're wielding both the primary weapon and the secondary weapon, the secondary weapon gains the benefit of the fundamental runes on the primary weapon.
Good catch on the subtle differences in wording there. By my estimation, the difference between the Blazon's and Rings could be chalked up to language drift, or different designers using different verbage. It could mean that there is a fundamental difference in how each of those items works, but it equally could not. I am undecided.
As far as too much power is concerned, consider that the action economy for doing this really wouldn't be great in combat. To switch a pair of weapons you'd have to put the current pair away (or drop them and maybe lose those Blazons), draw the new pair, and activate the primary weapon. It wouldn't let you quickly switch weapons like in the Matrix lobby shootout. It would mostly just give you several options at the start of combat - which is what the Bandolier is intended to do.
Yeah, I went through and tried to game out what you would have to do to make this work, and it's not pretty. Quick Draw doesn't help, since you have to activate the bandolier to grant a pistol the runes. So at best, starting with an activated pistol and it's blazoned twin drawn, you could:
(Assumptions: Gunslinger with 8 pistols, 4 blazons of shared power and 1 Gunner's Bandolier. You attune the primary pistol to the bandolier and wear the secondaries as normal. You have access to Paired Shots, which is not that important but feels thematic to me)
Turn 1: Paired Shots with Pair 1, drop them both, activate bandolier to draw Primary 2.
Turn 2: Draw Secondary 2, paired shots, drop both (can be done at any time really).
Turn 3: Activate bandolier to draw Primary 3. Quick Draw to strike with Secondary 3, Strike with primary 3. Drop both.
Turn 4: Repeat turn 3 for Pair 4.
So in 4 turns, you made 6 shots at max MAP, 2 at -5 map, and all of them have been with what I can only assume are your best, most expensive, runes. Compare to using Slide Pistols, where you have to interact between shots, or to leaning on Risky Reload to make an extra shot each turn with some other gun. The ability to use Quick Draw to fire a preloaded pistol just barely beats that option imo.
Is there a way to get doubling rings to work with two ranged weapons, or an alternative item that does the same job?
I'm thinking of a Pistolero with two hand crossbows or two Dueling Pistols
Would adding a Reinforced Stock help at all?
Blazons of Power would work for a set-up of 1 melee weapon as the 'main' weapon sharing the runes and 1 one-handed ranged weapon in your other hand as the beneficiary. If your main weapon happens to be gauntlets, well, the Free Hand trait means you have a free hand for reloading, so there is that.
In the Age of Ashes campaign we are playing in, our GM allowed my Fighter guy to use the Blazons on his shortbow in conjunction with the Cinderclaw Gauntlet. Yes, bows are Hands: 1+ rather then Hands: 1, but since we are neither using firearms or ABP, this helps saving on runes. After all, it means he is stuck with a 1d4 weapon on his main hand (Doubling Rings for when he switches to melee with shield or sword).