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But this is clearly different - Wish allows you to create an effect that has a "power level in line with an arcane spell of 9th level or lower". The question here is "does Meteor Swarm, but dealing cold not fire damage, have a power level in line with 9th level arcane spells" - if you answer yes, you have to be saying that the cold damage is the source of the increase in power level; the flexibility is being paid for by the 10th level spell slot.You are forgetting that the flexibility already lies in being able to cast any arcane spell other then another 10th level spell, and on top of that any spell up to 7th level of spell lists you don't even have access to otherwise.
Now bending and twisting those spells on top of getting access to them in the first place may be more flexibility then the 10th level slot pays for.
The original question is: 'If in all the spells accessible by Wish, a player does find many that are a solution for the problem at hand, but not the ideal/optimal solution, is allowing the player to further bend and twist a spell to 'optimise' it covered by the Wish spell's power or not.'
Ultimately, every GM has to answer that for themselves, but I will say again, if only casters get to play that game, you are back at creating a caster/martial imbalance that PF2 tries so hard to avoid.
It's a 10th level spell usable once or twice a day - even as someone who very keenly felt the caster/martial imbalance in PF1 and pushed back against it, I don't think letting someone tweak the damage type of a 9th level spell would push us much further back towards the caster/martial imbalance. Wish can explicitly do much more creative things than that, just with GM discretion about significant consequences or partial success. That being said, saying that the flexibility is only in being able to cast any other arcane spell is just flat-out contradicted by the text of Wish. Wish explicitly says - before anything about using greater powers than listed - that you can create an effect that is in-line with a 9th level spell. If the flexibility provided by Wish was limited to casting any other (non-10th level) arcane spell, that line would be meaningless - it's explicitly there to allow you to create effects that are similar in power level to existing spells, but don't exist.
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This point has probably already been made but I only dip into this thread from time to time as I mostly find it fairly tedious.
Let us assume that Wish said ONLY the following
A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.
1) Duplicate any arcane spell of 9th level or lower.
2) Duplicate any non-arcane spell of 7th level or lower..
3) Reverse certain effects that refer to the wish spell
Would people still take that as a 10th level spell on a normal "I don't have particular knowledge as to what I'm facing" adventurer day?
I know that I would without hesitation. The incredible flexibility of that is more than worth the 10th level spell slot to me.
Anybody who would should pretty much drop the "But what does the other text accomplish then?" argument. As they agree its a perfectly good 10th level spell WITHOUT that text.
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This point has probably already been made but I only dip into this thread from time to time as I mostly find it fairly tedious.
Let us assume that Wish said ONLY the following
A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.
1) Duplicate any arcane spell of 9th level or lower.
2) Duplicate any non-arcane spell of 7th level or lower..
3) Reverse certain effects that refer to the wish spellWould people still take that as a 10th level spell on a normal "I don't have particular knowledge as to what I'm facing" adventurer day?
I know that I would without hesitation. The incredible flexibility of that is more than worth the 10th level spell slot to me.
Anybody who would should pretty much drop the "But what does the other text accomplish then?" argument. As they agree its a perfectly good 10th level spell WITHOUT that text.
Some tables already run the spell like that. And I'm sure even with that, people may feel compelled to take it as a crutch.
The problem is that this is essentially houseruling the added clause(s) out of existence. The one is obviously problematic, serving as a disclaimer, but the other is a balance tool to use as compromise, and the other is designed for effects that a spell doesn't expressly cover. Such as Ice Comets.
I mean, if the GM doesn't feel comfortable running the Wish spell at their table as-is, and decides they want to nerf their impact on it's effect by simply sticking to the 3 clauses, fine. I just feel that, much like other houserules, it should be brought up in advance so the players are aware of what they're signing up for.
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I am sorry, but I really, strongly disagree with your philosophy of GMing, SuperBidi.It's because you haven't understood my point. All you describe is fine for me. For example, taking your examples:
I've understood your point perfectly well. You're drawing arbitrary distinctions that, if anything, proves my point.
In the first of my suggestions, the player is asking for the ability to use bludgeoning damage. That isn't on their character sheet, the weapon they are using cannot by RAW do that, but it feels so normal and natural that it seems weird that you wouldn't be able to do that (at least if you are somewhat familiar with how swords are used).
That is still power bargaining. It is still the player asking from the GM the ability to manipulate the mechanics of the game.
The difference is just the degree of control that the player is specifically asking for. But at that point the difference is quantitative, not qualitative.
And that's fine. How much power bargaining you are okay with is entirely up to you. But everyone is going to draw that line at a different place and the only way that a player is going to know where your line is, is by asking. And when something unforeseen comes up, sometimes they are going to have to ask in the moment. And I don't think that it's fair to say that a player is a problem at your table just for asking. It's draconian and tells the player that you don't trust them.
Now, I know I've rambled a bit, but to bring this back to Wish, the spell breaks all of the rules and changes a lot of how the game is played, because when you cast Fireball or use some Martial feat as a Fighter, you aren't in-universe describing what you are doing or going to do, or want to happen. When you make a Wish, you speak your intention to the universe and the universe (that is, the GM) responds.
You make the claim that the player shouldn't be asking for a mechanical resolution, or power bargain. I disagree with this idea, but let's put that aside for a moment.
The player casts Wish. "I wish to cast a cold-based Meteor Swarm."
You respond by telling them that they shouldn't ask for a mechanical resolution and just describe an effect. Wish for icebergs to fall on the foe or for frozen stalactites to explode or something.
They say, "I did. That was in-character. Inglethorp the Wizard says that he wishes to cast a cold-based Meteor Swarm. I could have said I wish to cast the Meteor Swarm spell where the meteors are frozen instead of on fire, but that felt clunkier to say."
See what I'm saying? Because the character verbalizes the effect that they wish to happen into the universe, (or prays it in the case of Miracle, or conceptualizes it for Alter Reality, or will it for Primal Phenomenon), the spell straight up requires the player to power bargain. Because it lets the PC inflict their will on the universe.
Even if you want to say, "If I tell you to open the door with Athleticism, don't bother asking to use Thievery unless you can explain how you do so", Wish is different. It lets you break the mold. It gives the player the tiniest portion of GM authority, albeit only for a moment and still at the GM's discretion to veto or adjust. You are allowed to dislike that, and personally I would have made Wish uncommon or even rare, but you can't ignore the writing on the spell, disallow the in-baked functionality of what it does, and call it rules as written.
Resurrecting the topic to add some spells from new books specially Dark Archive.
2º LvL:
- Loose Time's Arrow: A simple level 2 spell that works like heightened Haste but lasts only until the end of the caster next turn. Considering that is a cheaper than both versions of haste and affect entire party. This spell is very efficient for big partys full of martials.
3º LvL:
- Focusing Hum: This spell is perfect for Psychic repertoire. The psychic can cast it as last action before the unleash ends allowing to diminish considerably the flat DC failure due stupefied condition. Also due it's being an emanation can be useful to help stupefied and confused allies too.
6º LvL:
- Suspended Retribution: Strong mental spell that also part or divine tradition and can prevent some actions and specially spellcating or take 70 dmg. This is a very good damage for a lvl 6 spell and can easily restrict an opponent specially if it know it will die if suffer such amount of damage. Unfortunally don't work on mindless creatures.
7º LvL:
- Telekinetic Bombardment: This is basically a physical and late version of Fireball/Lightning for occult spellcasters (can be used for arcane too but usually in this level they have better damage spells) does same amount of damage of a heightened fireball and you can choose if will be a burst or a line. Also makes the opponents prone if they fail and even stuns if they crit fail.