Good Spell List


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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So I felt like discussing my favourite spells across levels these are spells that I feel if you don't have something coming to mind are worth picking up.

1st Heal, Soothe (both are good every level), Fear, Magic Missile (good every three when you have no other spells that would be directly applicable)

2nd Invisibility, Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Fairy Fire/ See invisible (having a invisible counter is pretty cool)

3rd Slow, Fear (again), Dispel Magic, Time Jump, Rousing Applause

4th Invisibility (again), Dimension Door, Phantasmal Killer

5th Synaesthesia, Wall of Ice

6th Wall of Force, Slow (best spell in the game at this level IMO), heroism

7th Haste (giving your whole party extra actions is pretty cool),Tempest of Shades, true targets

8th Prismatic Wall, Mind Blank,

9th Weird, Prismatic Sphere, Heroism, Synaesthesia (again)

So are there any many stays I am missing or spells people think I am overrating ?


I assume that you only want slotted spells, so no focus spells or rituals, right?

I love the Magus, so I have to throw Shocking Grasp in the hat. While its not the most exciting spell around, it does serious work, and scales well for heightening.

Another spell I like is Draw the Lightning at 4th. Not as great for non-magus casters, it gives a nice damage boost for an entire combat, while also having the chance at dealing some damage up front. Great value, and doesn't really compete much with too many other spells at its own level, for a magus anyway.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ray of frost is one that is near and dear to my heart. I can't tell you how many scrapes my sorcerer has survived nearly untouched just because she could keep her distance. Easily on par with electric arc just because of its long range. Another favorite (particularly as a signature spell) is dispel magic. I've lost count how many bad guys' plans I've totally ruined with that spell.

Darkness to blind everyone? Not today!
Flood the room with control water? Nope!
Divide the party with a wall of fire? What wall of fire?

XD


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Goddess, there are many cool and good spels that aren't in this list that I need to do many posts to put all them:

1º lvl:
Acidic Burst: Excellent if you are surrounded. It's a good area damage for a lvl 1 spell that doesn't affect you and aren't too large to affect nearby allies. It's also heighten well but at high levels if you could keep the distance may be better to switch to fireball

Agitate: Many people don't notice but it's an excellent spell to damage the opponent action economy. Besides being non-lethal it's still does a very good damage (2d8 mental), endures well (1 round in success, 2 rounds in failures or 4 in critical failures) and may force and opponent to suffer an AoO due the fact that step isn't one of the allowed actions. Also doesn't have incapacitant trait. It's a guaranteed damage or a good indirect action penalty + AoO and also heighten well.

Animate Dead/Summon Animal/Summon Construct/Summon Fey/Summon Lesser Servitor/Summon Plant or Fungus: Many people don't like PF2 summon spells due the action economy penalty of sustain the spell and their low AC, but they still a good way to flank opponents or make them to wast some actions attacking summoned creatures or even do some additional damage for spellcasters using only one action after summoned.

Bane: A non-incapacitant and non-sustained debuff that endures 1 minute (basically an entire encounter), very good for warpriests and any melee multiclasses martials with some caster dedication. It's cheap and may used no matter whats your opponent level.

Bless: While bane is a very good spell for melee, bless is a very good spell for ranged. It's have the same advantage of bane of being 1 minute duration without need to be sustained is an excellent spell for a party with 2 or more ranged chars due the fact they could keep an formation to all receive the bless benefit but it's a little more limited for usage in melee formations due the low emanation range without use of an action yet it's cheaper than non-heightened heroism so it's good for martials with some spellcaster dedication also helps warpriest to compensate a little their low weapon proficiency progression.

Command: Another non-incapacitant "debuff". Extremely good against armed opponents due the many actions they need to use to retake their weapons or if they carry more than one weapon to usually to force the to switch to an inferior weapon. For non armed opponent you can force then to prone what's isn't very action efficient (you will use an 2 action spell to force an opponent to use 2 actions in pratice, one to prone and another to stand) but once drop prone is a move action this can be used to force an AoO reaction of closer allies.

Create Water: Excellent for prepared spellcasters, especially druids and clerics due their access to all common spells for free. This spell may save the party from die of thirst.

Fear: Already pointed by topic creator, it's a good debuff spell due their lack of incapacitant trait and because works even if the opponent has success against will save. But loosed mostly of it's efficiency if the opponent has Resolve or Greater Resolve or Bravery. Maybe a little overrated by many players.

Goblin Pox: While Fear is little overrated IMO this spell for other side is usually underrated. It's basically a fortitude version of fear but's way better. Sickened condition does the same status penalties that frightened condition does but also prevents the opponent to ingest things (including potions and elixirs) and doesn't automatically ends each end of opponent turn. Instead in case of success in spell's fortitude check that opponent will need to use an action to try to reduce the condition if not it will have to continue using new actions to trying to reduce it or the affliction will continue affecting it. In case of failure in spell's fortitude check it will receive the Goblin Pox disease that not only will force the sickened for 1 round before allow to try to reduce it but also if the opponent failure to resist it's next fortitude checks it will improve the disease adding slow 1 and if failure again the condition will endure for the rest of the day and no more tests will be allowed! In this stage only spells could try to reduce/remove the disease. Also if disease is more than stage 1 the saves doesn't end it, only reduces it to earlier stage and new checks will be necessary to it's redution and may allow it to improve again.

Heal: It's a well know spell that's speaks by itself.

Horizon Thunder Sphere: Despite not being so good has Magic Missiles due it's attack trait, it's a good alternative for primal spellcasters once it's 3 actions version when fail still does half-damage but without the risk of being completely canceled due evasion/juggernaut/resolve and the hit-rate could be improved using Shadow Signet.

Illusory Object: This considered one of the mostly overpowered spells in the game. Depending how the caster uses this spell it can do effects that overwhelms mostly stronger spells. I heard stories of some creative players that creates false jails to protect ranged chars of a party from melee opponents or simulate wall spells or avoid entire encounters hiding in fake walls or creating false traps and so on. During an encounter is harder to someone to try check if something is an illusion or not specially when their lives are in danger or when there's an "obvious" way to circumvent something created by illusion like for example focus in melee characters outside the fake jail instead trying to check if the jail is real or around the fake wall instead to check if it really exists. This is a cheap spell that can benefit a lot a creative spellcaster.

Mage Armor: It's a classic, if your are unable to wear an armor like a wizard/sorcerer this spell will probably help you to live one more day. Also this spell could help a monk with spellcaster dedication or with Trick Magic Item feat to gain some item bonus in AC without broke "no armor" pre-requisites.

Magic Fang: Despite not being so good as the 1E counterparts this still a very good spell at earlier levels due allow players to have access to +1 striking before the strike rune is available for them.

Magic Missile: Simply the best single target damage spell. Unable to miss (could only be "blocked" by shield cantrip. Yet this only works once and usually doesn't blocks all damage) does force damage, one of the less (if not the less) resistant/immune energy type by monsters and heighten stupidly well. Could also be divided to hit different targets but in this case it can be less effective than many area spells.

Magic Weapon: Despite not being so good as the 1E counterparts this still a very good spell at earlier levels due allow players to have access to +1 striking before the strike rune is available for them.

Penumbral Shroud: When used against opponent that don't have darkvision or low-light vision this could make every one be concealed against it which turn it as a good non-incapacitant debuff with 10 minutes duration.

Phantom Pain: Another stronger non-lethal mental damage spell. It's a 2 action spell that in practice does almost so much damage as Magic Missiles due the persistence damage and in case of the opponent have success in will save only looses the persistence damage but in case of failure make a sickened condition that while endures causes persistence damage.

Ray of Enfeeblement: Non-incapacitant melee martial debuff that does enfeebled even if the target success it's save (but can have it's effectiveness diminished a lot due juggernaut) it's not efective against every test like frightened and sickened but also cannot be removed from other means than magic.

Sanctuary: This is a way stronger version of 3.5/1E sanctuary due how spells DCs works in 2E. It's a very strong spell if your char wants to keep a completely supportive stance during an encounter.

Shillelagh: Despite not being so good as the 1E counterparts this still a very good spell at earlier levels due allow players to have access to +1 striking before the strike rune is available for them. Also gives even more damage against aberrations, extraplanar creatures, and undead.

Shocking Grasp: As beowulf99 said is an excellent spell to use if you are playing with Magus or Eldritch Archer (especially if you are using a fighter chassis) due it's high damage, extra effectiveness against metal armors.

Soothe: A little lesser heal for occult spellcasters but despite being less effective yet is very useful and save many lives also +2 will saves helps against many spellcasters in special mental debuffers.

True Strike: Other well know spell useful for any spellcaster now matter if they are full casters, wavecasters or multiclasses you probably have some kind of attack that you don't want to miss.


Ravingdork wrote:
Ray of frost is one that is near and dear to my heart. I can't tell you how many scrapes my sorcerer has survived nearly untouched just because she could keep her distance. Easily on par with electric arc just because of its long range. Another favorite (particularly as a signature spell) is dispel magic. I've lost count how many bad guys' plans I've totally ruined with that spell.

Yep!

For cantrips electric arc and ray of frost are the best by far. But ray of frost becomes way more interesting since Shadow Signet.

But I have caveats with PF2e cantrips. They are way unbalanced from each other. For example Daze is way more weaker than electric arc and ray of frost or divine lance that's basically a weaker version of produce flame i'm staying thinks what's Paizo desginers was thinking when they done these cantrips.

I already fought it was because the didn't what to put stronger cantrips in traditions like divine or occultist but occultist Telekinetic Projectile so this doesn't make sense also is easier to many races, including humans to "import" other cantrips without problems. So doesn't appear to be some kind of tradition balance. It's just doesn't make much sense.


There are just too many spells...

Among those who I really like, in addition to the ones already posted, I want to add:

Blood vendetta ( nice if you don't have reactions)

Shift blame ( kinda fun to put the blame on somebody else, after a diplomacy failure or a critical hit)

Draw the lightning ( excellent extra damage)

Unexpected shift ( swap with another party member or enemy, if attacked)

Collective transposition ( repositioning your party, as well as enemies, is kinda good)

All is one, one is all ( love this one. It allows you to distribuite hp and swap allied positions. Works especially good with large parties, which also have familiars/companions)


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I will add a few damaging spells seeing you are missing those.

Scorching Ray: The good AoE effects start at level 3 but this is the closest you will get early on.
Illusory Creature: Besides all of its non combat aplications, it is the best minion you will get.
Fireball/Lightning Bolt: Standard AoE with good damage. Fireball is usually better but Lightning Bolt is easier to deal with when you have tons of melee allies.
Ice Storm: Decent AoE damage and difficult terrain. Comes with difficult terrain so it is great to make enemies take longer to reach you. Better in parties with tons of ranged options.
Cone of Cold: Fireball but better damage.
Blazing Fissure: Less damage than Cone of Cold but makes enemies prone on failure. Really good if your allies have AoO.
Chain Lightning: AoE with almost no downside.
Flame Vortex: Good sustainable source of damage.
Phantasmal Calamity: Will targetting Fireball.
Frigid Flurry: Damage + mobility all in one.
Visions of Danger: Really good battlefield control + damage option.
Burning Blossoms: Crowd control + damage in a huge area.
Whirlwind: Sustainable source of damage and CC. Really good if you get Effortless Concentration.

Ravingdork wrote:

Another favorite (particularly as a signature spell) is dispel magic. I've lost count how many bad guys' plans I've totally ruined with that spell.

Darkness to blind everyone? Not today!
Flood the room with control water? Nope!
Divide the party with a wall of fire? What wall of fire?

XD

I also love Dispel Magic. It is not only a really good option but it also leads to some hilarious situations. There is nothing more fullfilling as a caster than seeing through a bad guy Illusory Disguise and dispelling it in the middle of a speech.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
roquepo wrote:
Fireball/Lightning Bolt: Standard AoE with good damage. Fireball is usually better but Lightning Bolt is easier to deal with when you have tons of melee allies.

I wish I knew that earlier on. So many times I couldn't use fireball effectively due to the large number of melee allies running into the fray with their higher initiatives, forcing me to instead rely on party buff spells instead. Had I taken lightning bolt instead, I might actually have had more than a few chances to use it.

(And yes, I did ask them to delay so that I could soften up the enemy first, but they repeatedly refused, even when we all would have gone before the enemy.)


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Ravingdork wrote:
And yes, I did ask them to delay so that I could soften up the enemy first, but they repeatedly refused, even when we all would have gone before the enemy

That's really sad to hear. TTRPGs like pathfinder are supposed to be a cooperative game.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Ray of frost is one that is near and dear to my heart. I can't tell you how many scrapes my sorcerer has survived nearly untouched just because she could keep her distance. Easily on par with electric arc just because of its long range. Another favorite (particularly as a signature spell) is dispel magic. I've lost count how many bad guys' plans I've totally ruined with that spell.

Darkness to blind everyone? Not today!
Flood the room with control water? Nope!
Divide the party with a wall of fire? What wall of fire?

XD

I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell, simply because counteract checks are much, much harder for the PCs than the BBEGs, and those are the things you want to use Dispel Magic on the most, since they are the most debilitating/damaging/disruptive. BBEG spellcasters usually have anywhere from 4 to 5 DC higher than creatures/PCs of their level, and if it's higher level than you, it only gets worse. So, instead of rolling an 11 or higher, you need a 16+ or higher just to counteract, which puts the math way against you. It's about as bad as making a third Strike in a round.

Also, with how Counteracting works, you can't just take a lower spell slot to counteract something that's either auto-heightened (if it's an innate spell from the creature), or is likely of a spell level higher than you can cast; you're burning top spell slot power just to have a chance of doing something. It's possible that the spellcaster is using a lower level spell slot, but you can't reasonably know that without the GM giving you that information (or if you already have/know the spell, leading to some metagame tactics).

Counterspell is just as lame and doesn't function until 7th level at-best, when you acquire the Quick Recognition feat, so you aren't having to decide to burn a reaction to actually know what the spell is being cast before you're burning a reaction to Counterspell.


2º lvl:

Barkskin: One of the rare non-focus buff in the game. Isn't great but add some bludgeoning and piercing DR in early game levels. What's good for all those aren't a Cosmos Oracle and parties that don't have champions.

Blood Vendetta: As HumbleGamer said "it's nice if you don't have reactions". IMO it's better than nice, because not only is a ranged reaction that does a good damage but because it can scare many martials from attack a spellcaster when they first receive the reaction. In tables with sensate GMs many opponents probably avoid to attack a spellcaster that does this reaction due the affraid that their attack "turn back" against them.

Blur: Another are non-focus buff. Add concealed checks that can't be circumvented by mostly visual abilities like darkvision or low-light vision. It's simply, efficient and keeps working well in higher levels.

Create Food: Same of create water. Can save many lost parties from starvation specially easier for clerics/druids that can have freely access to this spell.

Darkness: It's a supereffective spell for parties that has darkvision once this works like an area heightened invisibility. But has a terrible progression, can be suppressed by a simple light cantrip from any spellcaster with higher spelllevel and heightened version affect darkvision avoiding the usage even for party members with darkvision due the fact that also affects them, also is useless if the opponents have darkvision. But yet is a fantastic spell during the perfect conditions (party members covered by darkness having darkvision/greater darkvision vs opponents unable to see in the dark and can't cast higher light spell)

Dispel Magic: This is a way stronger version of 3.5/1E Dispel Magic due how spells DCs works in 2E. It's a very versatile spell against all magical effects and different from older versions it's now way cheaper.

Final Sacrifice: Don't like that weakling lvl 1 summons anymore? Do not worry! Now you could turn them into an effective controlled fireball doing more damage than fireball itself and using a lower level spell! And don't worry about your minion death, summoned creature don't really die they just back to their plane it's just an unorthodox (and evil and painful) way to sent them back while they doing some last useful thing! kkkkk

Flaming Sphere: Another classic. It's doesn't so good at first round but increment the action economy effectiveness of any spellcaster a lot because it's gives a good damage additional 1-action "attack" vs reflex without affecting MAP also has a good Heighten progression.

Invisibility: Another classic! Perfect for investigations, steals and any other sneak in operations. It's Heightened version is excellent during encounters against opponents that can't see invisibility or cast a similar spell.

Scorching Ray: Like said by roquepo is a good multi-target spell early level spell does a good damage if hits. Also avoids de the limitation of many other area spells thats needs the caster to pay attention in enemies and allies positions to do it effective.

Silence: Another classic! Supereffective against spellcaster due the fact that 99% of spells requires verbal components and this spell cannot be resisted. Is the first spell that an experience spellcaster uses againt other spellcasters during an encounter.

Thundering Dominance: A very good area damage for summoner and druids with animal companions. Does a good area damage around companion/eidolon and can make them frightened 1 if they fail in their saves also has a good Heighten progression and gives a intimidation bonus for the companion/eidolon.

Warrior's Regret: Very interesting persistence damage and action economy damage. Is specially effective against opponents with AoE damage but the heighten of the spell is weak but still a good spell even in high levels.


roquepo wrote:
I will add a few damaging spells seeing you are missing those.

I don't think it's no like we are missing the mostly damaging spells but it's because the 2E gives a limited and too much tactical usage for these spells one in this version due these kind of spell no more progress with caster level just like older editions. So this makes mostly spellcaster to use mostly damage spells only in their higher level spellslots and saves to use only against the mostly severe or extreme opponents.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell, simply because counteract checks are much, much harder for the PCs than the BBEGs, and those are the things you want to use Dispel Magic on the most, since they are the most debilitating/damaging/disruptive. BBEG spellcasters usually have anywhere from 4 to 5 DC higher than creatures/PCs of their level, and if it's higher level than you, it only gets worse. So, instead of rolling an 11 or higher, you need a 16+ or higher just to counteract, which puts the math way against you. It's about as bad as making a third Strike in a round.

I don't see this in practice. In many book I already GMed I don't see the BBEG being more than just 1 or 2 levels higher than players and many hazards and other magical things they encounter during the game have even lower DCs.

In 2E a anything with 4 levels higher than party level will do a total destruction in mostly parties.


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YuriP wrote:
roquepo wrote:
I will add a few damaging spells seeing you are missing those.
I don't think it's no like we are missing the mostly damaging spells but it's because the 2E gives a limited and too much tactical usage for these spells one in this version due these kind of spell no more progress with caster level just like older editions. So this makes mostly spellcaster to use mostly damage spells only in their higher level spellslots and saves to use only against the mostly severe or extreme opponents.

Of course you don't want descaling damaging spells on something that are not your 2 or 3 highest levels, but that doesn't mean you don't want them at all. Remember that even an spontaneous caster can swap their spells as they level (or via retraining) and it is quite frequent that the best answer to a situation is just more damage. Just wanted to add some because the list OP wrote had just 3 of those.


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YuriP wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell, simply because counteract checks are much, much harder for the PCs than the BBEGs, and those are the things you want to use Dispel Magic on the most, since they are the most debilitating/damaging/disruptive. BBEG spellcasters usually have anywhere from 4 to 5 DC higher than creatures/PCs of their level, and if it's higher level than you, it only gets worse. So, instead of rolling an 11 or higher, you need a 16+ or higher just to counteract, which puts the math way against you. It's about as bad as making a third Strike in a round.

I don't see this in practice. In many book I already GMed I don't see the BBEG being more than just 1 or 2 levels higher than players and many hazards and other magical things they encounter during the game have even lower DCs.

In 2E a anything with 4 levels higher than party level will do a total destruction in mostly parties.

I've had the opposite experience. Several spellcaster bosses were 2 to 3 levels higher than PCs, and had DCs that were extremely difficult to even succeed on, even for the specialized characters.

And traps being even lower DCs? Almost never the case; they're either at or even higher than the boss monsters. I can't think of an instance where a trap didn't just instantly critical an ally (or force a critical failure on a saving throw).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I agree that traps are particularly brutal in this edition, often coming close to one-shotting a PC, but you don't always need to Succeed on a Counteract check to dispel a spell. Oftentimes, a failure works well enough.

Even high level bad guys will oftentimes cast lower level spells that can be disrupted.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell, simply because counteract checks are much, much harder for the PCs than the BBEGs, and those are the things you want to use Dispel Magic on the most, since they are the most debilitating/damaging/disruptive. BBEG spellcasters usually have anywhere from 4 to 5 DC higher than creatures/PCs of their level, and if it's higher level than you, it only gets worse. So, instead of rolling an 11 or higher, you need a 16+ or higher just to counteract, which puts the math way against you. It's about as bad as making a third Strike in a round.

I don't see this in practice. In many book I already GMed I don't see the BBEG being more than just 1 or 2 levels higher than players and many hazards and other magical things they encounter during the game have even lower DCs.

In 2E a anything with 4 levels higher than party level will do a total destruction in mostly parties.

I've had the opposite experience. Several spellcaster bosses were 2 to 3 levels higher than PCs, and had DCs that were extremely difficult to even succeed on, even for the specialized characters.

And traps being even lower DCs? Almost never the case; they're either at or even higher than the boss monsters. I can't think of an instance where a trap didn't just instantly critical an ally (or force a critical failure on a saving throw).

The checks might be harder, but you still need to get that dominate off the fighter before he turns your party to paste. You also might need to burn away the occasional enemy buff, but enemies don't upcast so you can purge those as long as you don't crit fail.

As for traps, you should never use magic for those. Just have your local rogue do it since skills scale better than your dispel and cost no resources. You probably need the rogue's perception scaling to even find the trap in the first place after all.

On topic, maze is among my favorite higher level spells. Together with a source of slowed and/or prone, you can just about remove any agency solo bosses might have and make a sizable dent in duo boss difficulty.


When I talk about hazard having lower DC is compared to BBEG I'm not saying that they are easier.

For example. I opened my

Spoiler:
AoA: Fires of the Hounted City
(the AP book more closer to me here kk) and searching for hazards. They uses the same level of normal moderated encounters and normal DCs for the challenge. None of them are magical so dispell magic is not an option here but if it was theses DCs aren't difficult to dispell.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. Several spellcaster bosses were 2 to 3 levels higher than PCs, and had DCs that were extremely difficult to even succeed on, even for the specialized characters.

Sorry Darksol but 2 to 3 lvls higher in 2E is way different from 4 to 5. As I said face something with such level difference is brutal in this system. Just imagine a lvl 5 spellcaster facing a lvl 1 party. They party will be burned in the first fireball!

We have to remember that 2E level diferences are brutal due how DCs works.


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YuriP wrote:

When I talk about hazard having lower DC is compared to BBEG I'm not saying that they are easier.

For example. I opened my ** spoiler omitted ** (the AP book more closer to me here kk) and searching for hazards. They uses the same level of normal moderated encounters and normal DCs for the challenge. None of them are magical so dispell magic is not an option here but if it was theses DCs aren't difficult to dispell.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I've had the opposite experience. Several spellcaster bosses were 2 to 3 levels higher than PCs, and had DCs that were extremely difficult to even succeed on, even for the specialized characters.

Sorry Darksol but 2 to 3 lvls higher in 2E is way different from 4 to 5. As I said face something with such level difference is brutal in this system. Just imagine a lvl 5 spellcaster facing a lvl 1 party. They party will be burned in the first fireball!

We have to remember that 2E level diferences are brutal due how DCs works.

To be clear, I am saying the DC value is 4 to 5 higher with above-level threats, not the levels themselves; the BBEGs are probably 2 to 3 levels above. It's especially true for pure spellcaster enemies.


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Ravingdork wrote:

I agree that traps are particularly brutal in this edition, often coming close to one-shotting a PC, but you don't always need to Succeed on a Counteract check to dispel a spell. Oftentimes, a failure works well enough.

Even high level bad guys will oftentimes cast lower level spells that can be disrupted.

I can understand why the traps are usually set up that way (because they're one-off effects or otherwise don't reliably function as deterrents to adventurers, thieves, etc.), but from a game balance perspective it's almost akin to a developer-endorsed "Rocks Fall, You Die" scenario, which just feels bad for the players. There's a reason why Tomb of Horrors is a notorious campaign, and that's because there's so many of those types of pitfalls written in place.

But really, it depends on the spell and level relative to the encounter. A creature casting Haste at Spell Level 7th versus 3rd (buffing their minions as well as themselves) means you can't just throw a 4th level Dispel at it and just hope a failure is enough, especially if you're running around with 6th level spells on your slots. If you've never encountered the spell before, without spending actions, reactions, skill feats, etc. you won't even know what's happening (unless its effects are quite obvious, like Fireball). Against the enemy's most powerful spells, the kind of things you would absolutely want to counter so they don't wreck your party, you're not going to be very effective, and the math proves it.


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gesalt wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
YuriP wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell, simply because counteract checks are much, much harder for the PCs than the BBEGs, and those are the things you want to use Dispel Magic on the most, since they are the most debilitating/damaging/disruptive. BBEG spellcasters usually have anywhere from 4 to 5 DC higher than creatures/PCs of their level, and if it's higher level than you, it only gets worse. So, instead of rolling an 11 or higher, you need a 16+ or higher just to counteract, which puts the math way against you. It's about as bad as making a third Strike in a round.

I don't see this in practice. In many book I already GMed I don't see the BBEG being more than just 1 or 2 levels higher than players and many hazards and other magical things they encounter during the game have even lower DCs.

In 2E a anything with 4 levels higher than party level will do a total destruction in mostly parties.

I've had the opposite experience. Several spellcaster bosses were 2 to 3 levels higher than PCs, and had DCs that were extremely difficult to even succeed on, even for the specialized characters.

And traps being even lower DCs? Almost never the case; they're either at or even higher than the boss monsters. I can't think of an instance where a trap didn't just instantly critical an ally (or force a critical failure on a saving throw).

The checks might be harder, but you still need to get that dominate off the fighter before he turns your party to paste. You also might need to burn away the occasional enemy buff, but enemies don't upcast so you can purge those as long as you don't crit fail.

As for traps, you should never use magic for those. Just have your local rogue do it since skills scale better than your dispel and cost no resources. You probably need the rogue's perception scaling to even find the trap in the first place after all.

On topic, maze is among my...

There are probably better ways to handle that situation besides Dispel Magic, though. As for enemies not upcasting, they often list what spell level they cast certain spells at, especially if they're innate spells or constant effects, and in my experience, they aren't always the same level as the minimum for the spell.

Having been in 2 groups where they can't disable traps due to lack of training, magic has been the only recourse, to equally no avail. It gives me PTSD flashbacks of a certain trap in a certain Age of Ashes book that nearly caused a TPK. But really, if the trap needs to be so challenging that your best character struggles to handle it, it's just poorly designed.

I've seen Maze used quite well, and having used Maze once to prolong an enemy, along with having no Save or a Incapacitate trait, it's extremely powerful. Probably one of the best control spells in the game. Bonus points with Effortless Concentration feat.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ray of frost is one that is near and dear to my heart. I can't tell you how many scrapes my sorcerer has survived nearly untouched just because she could keep her distance. Easily on par with electric arc just because of its long range. Another favorite (particularly as a signature spell) is dispel magic. I've lost count how many bad guys' plans I've totally ruined with that spell.

Yep!

For cantrips electric arc and ray of frost are the best by far. But ray of frost becomes way more interesting since Shadow Signet.

But I have caveats with PF2e cantrips. They are way unbalanced from each other. For example Daze is way more weaker than electric arc and ray of frost or divine lance that's basically a weaker version of produce flame i'm staying thinks what's Paizo desginers was thinking when they done these cantrips.

I already fought it was because the didn't what to put stronger cantrips in traditions like divine or occultist but occultist Telekinetic Projectile so this doesn't make sense also is easier to many races, including humans to "import" other cantrips without problems. So doesn't appear to be some kind of tradition balance. It's just doesn't make much sense.

Daze has a really nice critical failure rider and longer range than most cantrips, but the main thing is it is one of the only non-lethal spells available.

Divine Lance is worse than Produce Flame until you start fighting fiends or other outsider types with alignment weaknesses. (Which are much more common than straight up elemental weaknesses.) Then it suddenly punches way above its weight class. I think the main problem with it is it plays weird with sorcerers and oracles.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
To be clear, I am saying the DC value is 4 to 5 higher with above-level threats, not the levels themselves; the BBEGs are probably 2 to 3 levels above. It's especially true for pure spellcaster enemies.

Usually the DCs rises 1-1 with the level, except in levels where a caracter change it's proficiency grade. Yet the logic keeps the same. An opponent with 4-5 DCs higher can easily destroy a party.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Daze has a really nice critical failure rider and longer range than most cantrips, but the main thing is it is one of the only non-lethal spells available.

The main problem here is that critical failure chance don't justify how much the cantrip damage is reduced compared with others, specially when heightened. The spell range isn't better than ray of frost that also have some critical effects (ok, it's minor if compared to stun) and I know that ray of frost is an attack while daze is a save check yet electric arc is a save too have same damage of ray of frost and can hit 2 targets without affect it's damage amount. I used both during gameplays and the second one always appear to be so better and useful.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Divine Lance is worse than Produce Flame until you start fighting fiends or other outsider types with alignment weaknesses. (Which are much more common than straight up elemental weaknesses.)

I agree. Divine Lance could be very efficient against creatures with good weakness and can be used as laser pointer to the detect some alignment (kkkk) but it's useless against all the rest yet I know thats is more a problem of the divine tradition that lacks another good damage cantrip than any other thing. But still keeps the sensation that cantrips balance is strange some cantrips fell way more useful or efective than others. I know that's normal that spells of same level could have some unbalances but in cantrips the thing appear to be higher than normal.

Captain Morgan wrote:
Then it suddenly punches way above its weight class. I think the main problem with it is it plays weird with sorcerers and oracles.

Yep for sorcerers/oracles the cantrip description creates a doubt about what alignment could be used but usually the GMs decides this without a turns a great problem, some uses to the char aligments others asks the player to choose a deity and others (including me) try to alighn to the chars powers (like good damage for angelic bloodline, lawful or evil for devil and chaotic or evil for demons and for oracle I treat like has a neutral divinity until the player buys divine access and choose a non-neutral divinity). My problem is more mechanically, specially for cloistered clerics due the lack of other cantrip options.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.

It would also be nice if there were special slots for such situational cantrips. Because now we have too many must-have ones and too few slots so interesting but situational cantrips don't fit in. :( Even cantrip expansions don't help that much, and you still must have Reach if you want a working spellcaster.


Captain Morgan wrote:
The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.

I disagree a little here. In lvl 1 spells Phantom Pain does the job of give non-lethal damage yet has one of the stronger damage of LvL 1 spells.


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Errenor wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.
It would also be nice if there were special slots for such situational cantrips. Because now we have too many must-have ones and too few slots so interesting but situational cantrips don't fit in. :( Even cantrip expansions don't help that much, and you still must have Reach if you want a working spellcaster.

I actually sort of like this about 2nd ed to be honest. Cantrips in 1st were basically taken for granted past level like, 2. Swinging the other way and having so many cantrips that you really want to squeeze into your spellbook or repertoire is a nice problem to have.

And there are plenty of ways to squeeze an extra cantrip in here or there, if you are willing to make the trade.


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beowulf99 wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.
It would also be nice if there were special slots for such situational cantrips. Because now we have too many must-have ones and too few slots so interesting but situational cantrips don't fit in. :( Even cantrip expansions don't help that much, and you still must have Reach if you want a working spellcaster.

I actually sort of like this about 2nd ed to be honest. Cantrips in 1st were basically taken for granted past level like, 2. Swinging the other way and having so many cantrips that you really want to squeeze into your spellbook or repertoire is a nice problem to have.

And there are plenty of ways to squeeze an extra cantrip in here or there, if you are willing to make the trade.

Not to mention this gives prepared casters an edge over spontaneous for those ''we must capture x alive'' scenarios.

''Oh its a non-lethal mission uh? well I'll prepare daze instead of murder-claw just in case''


YuriP wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
The thing is with Daze you're not using it to kill things. It is the spell you use to take enemies prisoner or cap the angry commoner out of commission with. It would be nice if it dealt comparable damage to electric arc, but it would also be nice if greatswords could make non-lethal attacks without the -2.
I disagree a little here. In lvl 1 spells Phantom Pain does the job of give non-lethal damage yet has one of the stronger damage of LvL 1 spells.

I have to disagree with that assessment. Given the choice, I'd take Daze over Phantom Pain every time. At early levels where you only have 1st level slots, you really don't want to burn them on a pretty limited in scope damage spell. Those slots are precious, whereas Daze gives you all day access to non-lethal damage.

You shouldn't try to compare a slotted spell with a cantrip equivalent. They serve two different purposes.


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I think you misunderstand me.

I'm comparing a sloted spell (like Magic Missiles vs Phantom Pain) and Cantrip vs Cantrip (like Electric Arc vs Daze) balance and saying that being non-lethal doesn't justify the tremendous downside that Daze suffers if compared if others offensive cantrips and showing that this doesn't happen to their slotted "equivalents", so the justification of "is because is non-lethal" don't make much sense.


AlastarOG wrote:

Not to mention this gives prepared casters an edge over spontaneous for those ''we must capture x alive'' scenarios.

''Oh its a non-lethal mission uh? well I'll prepare daze instead of murder-claw just in case''

To me the biggest draw of prepared are incapacitation spells. Let say you are level 3 and you just got level 2 spells. Calm Emotions works against anything level 4 or lower just fine and has big trouble trying to affect anything above that. You add it to your spell list and once you hit level 4 you change it for something else as instead of affecting level +1 enemies now it just affects on level enemies. Flash forward to level 5 and you add it back again as a level 3 slot.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
roquepo wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:

Not to mention this gives prepared casters an edge over spontaneous for those ''we must capture x alive'' scenarios.

''Oh its a non-lethal mission uh? well I'll prepare daze instead of murder-claw just in case''

To me the biggest draw of prepared are incapacitation spells. Let say you are level 3 and you just got level 2 spells. Calm Emotions works against anything level 4 or lower just fine and has big trouble trying to affect anything above that. You add it to your spell list and once you hit level 4 you change it for something else as instead of affecting level +1 enemies now it just affects on level enemies. Flash forward to level 5 and you add it back again as a level 3 slot.

On the other hand a spontaneous caster can make it a signature spell and adjust it to the perfect level of casting. If you're fighting mooks you know are under leveled you may not want to waste your top spell slot, especially because a lower slot lets your allies benefit from the incapacitation trait.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
roquepo wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:

Not to mention this gives prepared casters an edge over spontaneous for those ''we must capture x alive'' scenarios.

''Oh its a non-lethal mission uh? well I'll prepare daze instead of murder-claw just in case''

To me the biggest draw of prepared are incapacitation spells. Let say you are level 3 and you just got level 2 spells. Calm Emotions works against anything level 4 or lower just fine and has big trouble trying to affect anything above that. You add it to your spell list and once you hit level 4 you change it for something else as instead of affecting level +1 enemies now it just affects on level enemies. Flash forward to level 5 and you add it back again as a level 3 slot.
On the other hand a spontaneous caster can make it a signature spell and adjust it to the perfect level of casting. If you're fighting mooks you know are under leveled you may not want to waste your top spell slot, especially because a lower slot lets your allies benefit from the incapacitation trait.

The problem of making an incapacitation spell your signature spell is that it is still useless outside of the higher spell slot you have. Most good signature spells are useful at various levels.

For example, if you make Dispel Magic your signature spell you can still use your low level slots to counter appropriate threats. If you signature Calm Emotions it will be useless outside your 2 higher slots and really fight specific outside your highest slot.

Not like it is bad, but I think prepared can pull this off way better.


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Agreed on that, not to mention some incapacitation spells are so specific that you just can't afford them as signature.

Like banishment, it's great as is ! But if I'm making a spontaneous caster I ain't touching that, the odds of me fighting enough outsiders to use it more than a handful of time are very low, not to mention I probly wouldn't make it a signature spell.

But if you're a prepared caster and you're going to storm a group of demonic xulgath that have been summoning demons left and right well packing a level 6 banishment and a cold iron chunk is probly a good call !


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell

I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].


graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell
I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].

Dispel magic is kind of bad for The Big ThreatTM, but it is really good at dealing with smaller threats part of a bigger problem. Let say you are level 10 and you are fighting a Lich. Wouldn't you pop a level 3 Dispel magic to almost ensure you get rid of their Mirror Image?

Besides, even if it is bad against big guns, it can also be the best option you get against something like Dominate.


IMO Dispel magic isn't that bad. It's just situational and is necessary that you try to Identify Magic first to know if dispel will be a good option or not.


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roquepo wrote:
graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell
I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].

Dispel magic is kind of bad for The Big ThreatTM, but it is really good at dealing with smaller threats part of a bigger problem. Let say you are level 10 and you are fighting a Lich. Wouldn't you pop a level 3 Dispel magic to almost ensure you get rid of their Mirror Image?

Besides, even if it is bad against big guns, it can also be the best option you get against something like Dominate.

On a mirror image? Even failed hits can get rid of an image so it one of those times where it makes sense for a martial to make those extra attacks or to use a summon since you're only looking for a fail. A dispel only gets one chance to work while other methods continue to try: a summon for instance, gets 2 tries a round to get a fail+ to get rid of an image AND can flank for the martials.

Against dominate? Maybe, but I can't recall a counteract roll I've ever made that would have made the roll for something like that and it'd require your top slot spell too... From my experience, boosting the will save of someone that's dominated yields better results than trying to counteract it.


YuriP wrote:
IMO Dispel magic isn't that bad. It's just situational and is necessary that you try to Identify Magic first to know if dispel will be a good option or not.

Maybe? I know it's not good for me but some might find a use for it. I really just posted to agree with Darksol as he seemed to be the only one that didn't like it. Just wasn't him to know he wasn't the only one.


graystone wrote:
roquepo wrote:
graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell
I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].

Dispel magic is kind of bad for The Big ThreatTM, but it is really good at dealing with smaller threats part of a bigger problem. Let say you are level 10 and you are fighting a Lich. Wouldn't you pop a level 3 Dispel magic to almost ensure you get rid of their Mirror Image?

Besides, even if it is bad against big guns, it can also be the best option you get against something like Dominate.

On a mirror image? Even failed hits can get rid of an image so it one of those times where it makes sense for a martial to make those extra attacks or to use a summon since you're only looking for a fail. A dispel only gets one chance to work while other methods continue to try: a summon for instance, gets 2 tries a round to get a fail+ to get rid of an image AND can flank for the martials.

Against dominate? Maybe, but I can't recall a counteract roll I've ever made that would have made the roll for something like that and it'd require your top slot spell too... From my experience, boosting the will save of someone that's dominated yields better results than trying to counteract it.

Mirror image would keep the Lich safe for a turn, denying that and letting your martials deal damage with a spell 2 levels lower than your maximum is useful.

Will also works only with a failure on dominate. I've seen a Sorcerer critically fail a Dominate spell and then commanded to spam Heal on the enemy dragon. Having a swiss army knife like Dispel Magic for these kind of situations is useful.

I'm not saying that Dispel Magic is a top tier spell. Just that versatility is its own kind of power and even if the value of the spell is a bit low on average, you can find so many situations where it can be useful that makes me unable to think it is a bad spell.


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About dispel magic, here most people assume this is agaisnt creatures who only cast their highest slots all of the time.

A lot of ennemies will try buffs with lower spels that are quite potent (and perhaps mirror image, which can be mitigated, isn't the best exemple)

Heroism come to mind.

If youre fighting a level 15 cleric as a level 12 party, isn't a level 7 spell to dispel it's level 6 heroism almost guaranteed a good tradeoff? That's a -10% to Crit, -10% to save, -10 % to it's maneuver success.

How about blade barrier? Black tentacles? Wall of force? Resist energy ? (I know my creatures weak to an element always cast resist energy on themselves if they can) All of these are spells that don't have incapacitation and have set levels they work at.

Dispel magic is great for all of these, and this spell is one of the only ones I'd say works better on a spontaneous caster than a prepared one. Prepared casters want the option on the higher slots, but spontaneous with dispel magic as signature has a LOT of flexibility on how to apply it.

Pairs best with the recognise spell skill feat and a halfway decent int/Wis score though.


roquepo wrote:
Mirror image would keep the Lich safe for a turn, denying that and letting your martials deal damage with a spell 2 levels lower than your maximum is useful.

IF you happened to to have a dispel of a higher level ready and roll well enough sure... But what else could you do instead? Do you have dispel ready for a mirror image and not a fire shield or fly or resist energy?

roquepo wrote:
Will also works only with a failure on dominate. I've seen a Sorcerer critically fail a Dominate spell and then commanded to spam Heal on the enemy dragon. Having a swiss army knife like Dispel Magic for these kind of situations is useful.

No, it works on both fails and crit fails: you just have to force a new command "against its nature" like "killing its allies".

roquepo wrote:
I'm not saying that Dispel Magic is a top tier spell. Just that versatility is its own kind of power and even if the value of the spell is a bit low on average, you can find so many situations where it can be useful that makes me unable to think it is a bad spell.

And I'm not saying it's useless, just that I personally haven't found much use for it.

AlastarOG wrote:
About dispel magic, here most people assume this is agaisnt creatures who only cast their highest slots all of the time.

I'm not. What I'm assuming is that dispel magic isn't in multiple levels ready to be cast so you're likely to be blowing a spell higher than you'd need because it's the dispel magic you have and since the only dispel that MIGHT work on the big bad is a top slot...

AlastarOG wrote:

A lot of ennemies will try buffs with lower spels that are quite potent (and perhaps mirror image, which can be mitigated, isn't the best exemple)

Heroism come to mind.

Sure, but that then assumes I have a 4th level dispel handy or blowing a much higher level dispel on some overkill.

AlastarOG wrote:
If youre fighting a level 15 cleric as a level 12 party, isn't a level 7 spell to dispel it's level 6 heroism almost guaranteed a good tradeoff? That's a -10% to Crit, -10% to save, -10 % to it's maneuver success.

If, and that's a big if since a 12th level character doesn't have access to 7th level spells, the roll to dispel isn't assured so I could be blowing a spell higher than I could cast to still fail. Sure sounds like a plan... :P

AlastarOG wrote:
How about blade barrier? Black tentacles? Wall of force? Resist energy ? (I know my creatures weak to an element always cast resist energy on themselves if they can) All of these are spells that don't have incapacitation and have set levels they work at.

Now you're getting closer to something that could be worthwhile. If you can manage a higher level dispel than the target and it's not your highest level you can cast I can see using it.

AlastarOG wrote:
Prepared casters want the option on the higher slots, but spontaneous with dispel magic as signature has a LOT of flexibility on how to apply it.

I can agree with you here: as a signature spell, you can TRY to go one level over the spell and use it assuming you ID the spell and guess the level it's cast at [recognize spell only ID's the spell not the level it's cast at].


Sorry my exemple should have been party level 13 not 12 :-p


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roquepo wrote:
graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell
I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].

Dispel magic is kind of bad for The Big ThreatTM, but it is really good at dealing with smaller threats part of a bigger problem. Let say you are level 10 and you are fighting a Lich. Wouldn't you pop a level 3 Dispel magic to almost ensure you get rid of their Mirror Image?

Besides, even if it is bad against big guns, it can also be the best option you get against something like Dominate.

A 10th level spellcaster character can have only a maximum counteract modifier of 19 (10 level + 4 Expert + 5 modifier), against a Lich's DC 36 to try to counteract any given spell they use. That is a 15% chance that they have to actually succeed, and a 35% chance of critically failing to counteract the spell, meaning you'd waste the slot, not to mention the actions on top of it. This also assumes that you are using a 3rd level Dispel Magic against it, which is neither the assumed default, or a very good use of a 3rd level spell slot compared to the likes of Heroism or Haste, for example. You would honestly be better off using a Spell Attack roll effect to remove an image at a roll of 2 or higher (with a potential hit on a 12 or higher) by comparison, whereas a Martial would remove images by not rolling a 1 for at least 2 attacks, for less actions. Or even Disrupt Undead cantrip, since their Fortitude Saves are only +18, against a DC 29 spellcaster, means they can realistically fail half the time for full damage on average.

If you're trying to dispel a Dominate, you would need at least a 5th level slot, just to have the same 15% chance as before to succeed, which is down to 5% via a Natural 20 when using a 4th or 3rd level Dispel Magic slot. I mean, I suppose it's better than absolutely nothing, but Dispel Magic being the absolute savior when the chips are down is not reflected, much less typical, in actual play: Having faced an enemy spellcaster at 6th level with a DC of 30 that permanently blinded an ally, our spellcaster using 2 3rd level Dispel Magic spells on it (one was from a scroll) was not the least bit effective. I mean, yes, it was a Level+4 Spellcaster, which would have wiped the floor with us regardless. But it was only slightly less advantageous compared to the Lich example you gave, and that was with us using a 2nd-highest spell slot to stop a moderate spell slot cast by the boss.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
roquepo wrote:
graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I am actually in disagreement with Dispel Magic being a useful spell
I have to agree. I've tried using it several times just to have the counteract checks fail time after time. I can think of only once it actually did something worthwhile when I rolled a 20 vs a magic door trap [and the same roll would have allowed the rogue to just disarm it :(].

Dispel magic is kind of bad for The Big ThreatTM, but it is really good at dealing with smaller threats part of a bigger problem. Let say you are level 10 and you are fighting a Lich. Wouldn't you pop a level 3 Dispel magic to almost ensure you get rid of their Mirror Image?

Besides, even if it is bad against big guns, it can also be the best option you get against something like Dominate.

A 10th level spellcaster character can have only a maximum counteract modifier of 19 (10 level + 4 Expert + 5 modifier), against a Lich's DC 36 to try to counteract any given spell they use. That is a 15% chance that they have to actually succeed, and a 35% chance of critically failing to counteract the spell, meaning you'd waste the slot, not to mention the actions on top of it. This also assumes that you are using a 3rd level Dispel Magic against it, which is neither the assumed default, or a very good use of a 3rd level spell slot compared to the likes of Heroism or Haste, for example. You would honestly be better off using a Spell Attack roll effect to remove an image at a roll of 2 or higher (with a potential hit on a 12 or higher) by comparison, whereas a Martial would remove images by not rolling a 1 for at least 2 attacks, for less actions. Or even Disrupt Undead cantrip, since their Fortitude Saves are only +18, against a DC 29 spellcaster, means they can realistically fail half the time for full damage on average.

If you're trying to dispel a Dominate, you would need at least a 5th level slot, just to have the same 15% chance as before to succeed, which is down to 5%...

A 3rd level spell would counter a 2nd level spell on a failure.


On your exemple above darksol a level 3 dispel vs a mirror image with +19 spellcasting check vs a DC of 36 would actually have a 65% chance to succeed because a failure will counteract as one level lower and thus succeed.

35% Crit failure is concerning but if you go just before two martials that are about to flank the lich and whack it twice each, that's great odds and I'd take them any day.

If you're a level 10 spontaneous spellcaster you can also use a 5th level slot to guarantee success if you're concerned about the Crit failure.


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Tbf I mentioned Mirror Image because it was the only buff spell I remembered Liches had haha

It is right it is probably not the best example of a spell you want to counteract as AlastarOG pointed out, but I think it is good enough to show the point I was trying to make.

I was also making the assumption that you had it signatured (I almost always signature it so I took that for granted). Sorry for not mentioning that earlier.

Edit: Just to make sure, I wouldn't ever pick Dispel Magic as a prepared caster unless I knew for sure that I would need it.

graystone wrote:
roquepo wrote:
Will also works only with a failure on dominate. I've seen a Sorcerer critically fail a Dominate spell and then commanded to spam Heal on the enemy dragon. Having a swiss army knife like Dispel Magic for these kind of situations is useful.
No, it works on both fails and crit fails: you just have to force a new command "against its nature" like "killing its allies".

About this, on a critical failure, they ONLY get a save IF they do something that would go against they nature. I don't see any good hearted adventurer considering healing a creature as "something that goes against its nature"


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AlastarOG wrote:

About dispel magic, here most people assume this is agaisnt creatures who only cast their highest slots all of the time.

A lot of ennemies will try buffs with lower spels that are quite potent (and perhaps mirror image, which can be mitigated, isn't the best exemple)

Heroism come to mind.

If youre fighting a level 15 cleric as a level 12 party, isn't a level 7 spell to dispel it's level 6 heroism almost guaranteed a good tradeoff? That's a -10% to Crit, -10% to save, -10 % to it's maneuver success.

How about blade barrier? Black tentacles? Wall of force? Resist energy ? (I know my creatures weak to an element always cast resist energy on themselves if they can) All of these are spells that don't have incapacitation and have set levels they work at.

Dispel magic is great for all of these, and this spell is one of the only ones I'd say works better on a spontaneous caster than a prepared one. Prepared casters want the option on the higher slots, but spontaneous with dispel magic as signature has a LOT of flexibility on how to apply it.

Pairs best with the recognise spell skill feat and a halfway decent int/Wis score though.

If this is a true Cleric NPC, with Harm/Heal Fonts and everything, they have plenty of max level spell slots to not have to worry about lower level slots, much less having to memorize higher level spell slots to heal/deal damage, making that a pretty bad comparison. If not, then maybe. But odds are, the Cleric NPC will have all of their spell slots while nestled deeply (and relatively safely) in their lair, while the adventurers/PCs are coming in with a few scrapes and a fair amount of spell power/consumables/limited use abilities burned. Having faced one recently, it's basically a death sentence if played with any modicum of optimization (3-Action Harm Spam as a Negative cleric, Step and 2-Action Heal Spam until players run out of steam/power as a Positive cleric).

This also assumes the 13th level party will either have a Level 7 Scroll of Dispel Magic at the ready, or have a Level 7 Dispel Magic spell slotted/castable, which isn't very typical. Otherwise, people would also be preparing Level 7 Remove Curses, Remove Diseases, Remove Paralyses, etc. Just because the bad guys cast a debilitation effect. If we stuck with your original 12th level characters, they would be severely disadvantaged with that tactic due to counteracting being so tightly bound to level that even a simple 1 or 2 levels (spell levels included) makes options far less viable by comparison, almost suffering from the Consumable paradox.

As for it being great against any given spell, refer to my Lich breakdown above: When you have a mere 20% chance to succeed, and a 30% chance to critically fail, and you're actually saving higher level spell slots to counteract these spells instead of using them for other spells, it still doesn't work out when there are better uses for those slots.

People saying Dispel Magic is great is like saying a dull, rusty spork is an effective eating utensil. It's a far better NPC/GM tool than it is a PC/adventurer tool, since the NPC/GM is far more skilled at using said dull, rusty spork than the PCs/Adventurers are, by design.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
AlastarOG wrote:

About dispel magic, here most people assume this is agaisnt creatures who only cast their highest slots all of the time.

A lot of ennemies will try buffs with lower spels that are quite potent (and perhaps mirror image, which can be mitigated, isn't the best exemple)

Heroism come to mind.

If youre fighting a level 15 cleric as a level 12 party, isn't a level 7 spell to dispel it's level 6 heroism almost guaranteed a good tradeoff? That's a -10% to Crit, -10% to save, -10 % to it's maneuver success.

How about blade barrier? Black tentacles? Wall of force? Resist energy ? (I know my creatures weak to an element always cast resist energy on themselves if they can) All of these are spells that don't have incapacitation and have set levels they work at.

Dispel magic is great for all of these, and this spell is one of the only ones I'd say works better on a spontaneous caster than a prepared one. Prepared casters want the option on the higher slots, but spontaneous with dispel magic as signature has a LOT of flexibility on how to apply it.

Pairs best with the recognise spell skill feat and a halfway decent int/Wis score though.

If this is a true Cleric NPC, with Harm/Heal Fonts and everything, they have plenty of max level spell slots to not have to worry about lower level slots, much less having to memorize higher level spell slots to heal/deal damage, making that a pretty bad comparison. If not, then maybe. But odds are, the Cleric NPC will have all of their spell slots while nestled deeply (and relatively safely) in their lair, while the adventurers/PCs are coming in with a few scrapes and a fair amount of spell power/consumables/limited use abilities burned. Having faced one recently, it's basically a death sentence if played with any modicum of optimization (3-Action Harm Spam as a Negative cleric, Step and 2-Action Heal Spam until players run out of steam/power as a Positive cleric).

This also assumes the 13th level party will either have a Level...

This post makes me think you're not aware of how counteract rules work.

You do know that if you fail the counteract check you counteract as one lower but still counteract?

Also as mentioned above most of these deal with dispel as a signature, as a prepared caster it's much less effective indeed.


AlastarOG wrote:

On your exemple above darksol a level 3 dispel vs a mirror image with +19 spellcasting check vs a DC of 36 would actually have a 65% chance to succeed because a failure will counteract as one level lower and thus succeed.

35% Crit failure is concerning but if you go just before two martials that are about to flank the lich and whack it twice each, that's great odds and I'd take them any day.

If you're a level 10 spontaneous spellcaster you can also use a 5th level slot to guarantee success if you're concerned about the Crit failure.

I was merely referencing the rate of the Success category, not saying it was an absolute value. You would be correct, otherwise, though I still don't agree with throwing around a 3rd level Dispel Magic at the first chance I got, since a Slow spell would be far more effective in neutralizing the Lich threat.

A critical failure for counteracting means it simply doesn't counteract anything, regardless of spell level. It still working on significantly lower level spells is an outdated playtest rule.


roquepo wrote:
Edit: Just to make sure, I wouldn't ever pick Dispel Magic as a prepared caster unless I knew for sure that I would need it.

I tend to play prepared casters so I look at casters from the perspective of needing to preparing spells in specific slots at specific levels. Even with a spontaneous caster, I'm leary of the cost/reward vs other possible picks but it's far more viable that way.

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