RE: Toxicologists
So can bolts or other ammunition be poisoned with injury poisons before combat; and could they be given to other PCs?
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Yes and yes.
Can you do this with perpetual infusions? (ie, can you take a few minutes at the beginning of the day and poison the ranger's entire quiver?)
If you can, that seems a bit cheesy. If you can't, then the action economy for actually using quick alchemy poisons seems almost punitive.
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I ran a Rogue who specialized in poisons and always tended to apply poisons at the start of the day for my Daggers and Arrows as I sort of just assumed this was a given that any such Character would do just this. Of course, the Poisons were supplied by purchase on the open market as no Alchemist was part of that party but I'm not totally sure why that might move the needle on things.
I don't see any real reason why this wouldn't be allowed, RAW or RAI wise but maybe my GM and I were overlooking something at the time.
I ran a Rogue who specialized in poisons and always tended to apply poisons at the start of the day for my Daggers and Arrows as I sort of just assumed this was a given that any such Character would do just this. Of course, the Poisons were supplied by purchase on the open market as no Alchemist was part of that party but I'm not totally sure why that might move the needle on things.
I don't see any real reason why this wouldn't be allowed, RAW or RAI wise but maybe my GM and I were overlooking something at the time.
The trick is that perpetual infusions are, by nature, quick alchemy. Quick alchemy lasts only until the beginning of your next turn, and has the "holding or wearing alchemists tools" requirement that means that you at least have to have one hand free.
The question, then, is whether or not the poison stops working if you manage to apply it to your weapon before the beginning of your next turn, or if you actually have to get it into your foe before the beginning of your next turn to have it do anything
If it's the former, then you can sit down for a short while at the beginning of the day, and poison every bolt and arrow the party has, if you choose to. That seems potentially excessive.
If it's the latter, then the use case for perpetual poison is really limited. You need to spend an action on creating it (with an empty hand, which will then have poison in it). You need to spend an action on applying the poison (down from 2 because you're a toxicologist) and then you're sitting there with a poisoned weapon in one hand, the other empty, and one action before your turn ends and the poison vanishes. Worse yet, "Applying a poison to a weapon or another item requires two hands, with one hand holding the weapon or item." So unless you have extra hands, or there's a ruling that I'm not aware of that allows you to apply poison to a crossbow bolt that's already in the crossbow, there's no way to do it with any sort of ammo-based weapon. The poison will expire before you can pick up, load, and shoot. So... basically you either need to be in melee, starting your turn within reach of the enemy, with a one-handed weapon and an empty hand (merrily soaking up opportunity attacks from all of those manipulate actions), or you need to be wielding a thrown weapon. If the quick alchemy expiration applies to poisons even after they're applied, those are the only situations where perpetual alchemy can actually be used to poison a weapon where you can also make use of it before the poison vanishes, and it'll take all three actions to do, too. That seems really, *really* limiting for something that's supposed to be the class's cantrip-equivalent.
I've not heard clarity one way or the other on which one it is, and I was wondering if anyone else had.
The trick is that perpetual infusions are, by nature, quick alchemy. Quick alchemy lasts only until the beginning of your next turn, and has the "holding or wearing alchemists tools" requirement that means that you at least have to have one hand free.................
Yeah, this is the problem I'm running into. Do it one way screws with the other way.
Pazio REALLY needs to take a good hard look at this....
It boils down to what 'potency' means, as the items created with quick alchemy are only potent for 1 round.
Poisons are activated by applying them to a weapon/enemy/surface, so it may be that the alchemist only has 1 round to apply the poison after making it but can take up to a day before actually affecting anyone. This means an alchemist fire that hits someone and sets them on fire follows the normal rules for persistent damage.
Alternatively, the poison might only have 1 round to affect anyone. This means an alchemist fire lighting someone on fire only lasts for 1 round, as the quick alchemy rules render the item inert. This has very poor implications for any mutagens/non-instant elixirs/tools, but afflictions like poisons have a specific exception to persist beyond this 1 round if applied in time.
The first definition makes more sense to me both as the rules are written and gameplay-wise, but the second still seems valid.
I think with only quick alchemy it wont work, because the poison only has one round to be applied to an item and used, but that is a limitation of quick alchemy.
Perpetual infusions let's you violate spending infused reagents...but doesn't actually change the amount of time the item lasts. So if you put poison on your weapon, and poison someone that effect works fine. But if you don't poison someone within one round, then the poison fades and does nothing.
I think perpetual infusions (for poisons) needs to violate the normal nature of quick alchemy and allow them to last indefinitely, but you have to expend your infused reagents.
In fact, in general I think that would have been a better way to go. A limit to how many you get each day for free, but they last until the next day (with a provision to allow you to keep them going by forgoing your normal infused reagent allotment).
I think with only quick alchemy it wont work, because the poison only has one round to be applied to an item and used, but that is a limitation of quick alchemy.
Perpetual infusions let's you violate spending infused reagents...but doesn't actually change the amount of time the item lasts. So if you put poison on your weapon, and poison someone that effect works fine. But if you don't poison someone within one round, then the poison fades and does nothing.
I think perpetual infusions (for poisons) needs to violate the normal nature of quick alchemy and allow them to last indefinitely, but you have to expend your infused reagents.
In fact, in general I think that would have been a better way to go. A limit to how many you get each day for free, but they last until the next day (with a provision to allow you to keep them going by forgoing your normal infused reagent allotment).
Actually, I'd see it (in some ways) that you can afford to throw away toxins on quick alchemy in general, but that crippling them in perpetual alchemy is a real problem. A toxicologist can reasonably well afford to produce their toxins for the day in the morning, and pull them out of the pack as necessary - saving quick alchemy for everything else. That might be a bit annoying, but it's not a problem. Seriously limiting the Perpetual Alchemy feature, though, is a meaningful nerf. Again, that's supposed to be their cantrip effects... and it's generally accepted both that alchemist isn't a particularly overpowered class, and that toxicologist in particular is hard to make work.
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This item has the infused trait, but it remains potent only until the start of your next turn.
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
Maybe more succinctly, whether potency/inertness means "able to have an effect" or "able to be activated".
Poison being on a weapon is the effect of activating an injury poison, so it could be that the weapon being poisoned still lasts up to 24 hours if potency only determines if the item can be activated or not.
This interpretation also means that quick alchemy smokesticks create more than 1 round of smoke, antiplagues/antidotes protect someone for more than 1 round, and mutagens apply their effects over more than 1 round. Really it means that more than just bombs are functional with quick alchemy.
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Wait, some people think that Poisons, Mutagens, and Alchemical Tools/Items with durations longer than 1 round fizzle uselessly at the start of the next turn even if they're made and then Activated/Used with Quick Alchemy straight away?
No wonder so many people still think Alchemist is weak... how has this idea not been dispelled by the "too bad to be true" rule of thumb?
The Alchemical Item no longer exists at all after it has been Activated as they are consumed since they're... consumables. Therefore the "potency" of it shouldn't matter at all, the effects of it however must logically persist otherwise... like... 3/4 of all Alchemical Items that can be made with Quick Alchemy are next to useless.
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Yeah, but poisons specifically are weird for this. With perpetual and no expiration you could poison every arrow in your ranger's quiver at the start of the day. That is a huge boost compared to a mutagen which only lasts 10 minutes and can't be stacked with other mutagens. That gets into too good to be true territory.
Also, if they stay applied to weapons beyond the round duration, then when DO they expire? And why wouldn't the same argument apply to advance alchemy? Suddenly those poisons last forever, and not just the underleveled ones. Downtime suddenly becomes hugely powerful at no real cost.
You really need a happy middleground. Either house rule that quick alchemy lasts a minute, or house rule perpetuals aren't linked to research fields.
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how has this idea not been dispelled by the "too bad to be true" rule of thumb?
While some use it, it's not in the rules. Only "too good to be true" is in the rules under ambiguous rules: the written rules are fine with rules that are too bad to be true so it's left up to DM to houserule if they wish.
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Also, if they stay applied to weapons beyond the round duration, then when DO they expire? And why wouldn't the same argument apply to advance alchemy? Suddenly those poisons last forever, and not just the underleveled ones. Downtime suddenly becomes hugely powerful at no real cost.You really need a happy middleground. Either house rule that quick alchemy lasts a minute, or house rule perpetuals aren't linked to research fields.
Infused items only ever last 24 hours max, except for afflictions.
So 24 hours to poison someone with the weapon provided nothing rubs off the poison or you critically miss an attack/deal no damage on a hit and the poison comes off. And if someone is poisoned in that time, the affliction granted can last as long as it takes because of the specific exception under the infused trait.
Mutagenists handing out lower-level mutagens to the whole party and toxicologists poisoning everyone's weapons with lower-level poisons seems like exactly what perpetual infusions are for.
Also, if they stay applied to weapons beyond the round duration, then when DO they expire? And why wouldn't the same argument apply to advance alchemy? Suddenly those poisons last forever, and not just the underleveled ones. Downtime suddenly becomes hugely powerful at no real cost.You really need a happy middleground. Either house rule that quick alchemy lasts a minute, or house rule perpetuals aren't linked to research fields.
Infused items only ever last 24 hours max, except for afflictions.
So 24 hours to poison someone with the weapon provided nothing rubs off the poison or you critically miss an attack/deal no damage on a hit and the poison comes off. And if someone is poisoned in that time, the affliction granted can last as long as it takes because of the specific exception under the infused trait.
Mutagenists handing out lower-level mutagens to the whole party and toxicologists poisoning everyone's weapons with lower-level poisons seems like exactly what perpetual infusions are for.
I certain;y don't object to the mutagenist doing that, but I think this might make the toxicologist perpetual infusion the strongest perpetual by far, assuming you have an archer or two in the party. Maybe the alchemist needs that, I dunno. But every piece of ammo having extra damage, flat-footed, and clumsy 1 rolled into it with zero encounter actions investment is really really really good. And that's just for the mobs-- you can still bust out the good poisons for the bigger threats, or coating the melee weapons where it is less likely to be used.
The problem is that if the poison has to be used in one round then its near worthless. You can't really prep and it's not efficient in combat.
However, if they don't expire (and a time isn't listed, no not even 24 hours) then you can just stock pile them and poison everybody's weapons/ammo without limit and it becomes too good.
It's either feast or famine, and no middle ground.
What we need is a middle ground, and the current rules don't support it. As written they support either the overpowered or underpowered interpretations.
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Considering the level of the Perpetual poisons, I feel that this question is kind of moot. Rolling a Fortitude save for 1d6 (at level 7-10) or 1d10 (at level 11-16) points of damage seems quite useless. On top of that, you are certainly already poisoning all the weapons/arrows you'll use on tough enemies with proper poisons, so it's only for non dangerous fights.
In my opinion, it's not worth the time rolling the die. I love poison and use it with my Alchemist, it can already be frustrating considering the success rate but at least the effects are noticeable.
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However, if they don't expire (and a time isn't listed, no not even 24 hours) then you can just stock pile them and poison everybody's weapons/ammo without limit and it becomes too good.It's either feast or famine, and no middle ground.
What we need is a middle ground, and the current rules don't support it. As written they support either the overpowered or underpowered interpretations.
You created an alchemical item with the infused trait using your infused reagents, and it has a limited time before it becomes inert. Any nonpermanent effects from your infused alchemical items, with the exception of afflictions such as slow-acting poisons, end when you make your daily preparations again.
Ah you're correct, it does last only until your next daily preparations instead of 24 hours. So a hypothetical non-adventuring alchemist could make a lot of very relatively low-level poison if they never used their actual on-level abilities.
Again, not convinced that's actually a problem rather than something kind of neat. Perpetual infusions gives 1st-level poison at 7th, 5th-level poison at 11th, or 11th-level poison at 17th, each only useful in typical adventuring because toxicologists can use their class DC instead.