A Fighter with investigator archetype would work?


Advice


So, I'm pretty new to the game, and I'm thinking about some character concepts for future campaigns I might get in.

A have this concept of a ex-noble who lost his family due to his father madness. The old man blames his sons for his wife's death (she died when the younger brother has born). So madness takes him and he kill his owns kids for "justice". Later, local authorities execute the old man for his crimes. The only kid who manages to flee becomes a orfan and joins the local milita/guard/army and becomes a fighter, who try to conquer his noble title back. A deeply honored fighter character, master os two handed swords, who gets some formal education and training.

Since I don't like one dimentional PCs, I like the ideia of him becoming some type of investigator for the kingdom, but pretty capable in close combat too, so he can be useful outside combat too. Then comes the idea of the fighter with investigator archetype, using 2H weapons.

So, could it work, or is too much asking for it? It's MAD?

Silver Crusade

It would definitely work. A fighter can nearly dump Dex once they get plate mail (especially if they eventually go Sentinel and pick up Mighty Bulwark) so you'll have no difficulty buying up Str, Con, Wis and Intelligence.

The fighter chassis alone makes you pretty kick ass at combat so you can afford to spend a fair few feats on the Investigator.

It won't be quite as kick ass as a pure fighter spending all those feats on kicking ass (everything in PF2 is about tradeoffs) but it will definitely work and, as a fighter, you can afford to lose a little efficiency (fighters are basically the best or close to the best martial from a pure dealing out damage while being quite robust point of view) in exchange for that extra dimension to your PC (and, mechanically, having lots of skills and some other cool abilities)


This is something I put together earlier:

If you want to role play someone smarter upstairs, this is an intelligent fighter build which is effective. You can out-think your opponent. Devise a Stratagem is like a True Strike you can use every turn. Providing you have something else you can do, like trip that opponent or Strike at a different opponent, it is exceptionally good value. If you don’t have another option, don’t waste an action on it. You can also choose to go with a Power Attack if you have a good opening. Expect table varians on how DaS and Swipe work together - I think they don’t interact, but even if they do it's still a good choice.

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Breastplate or Full Plate, Guisarme
Class Feats: Level 1: Power Attack, Level 2: Investigator Dedication Level 4: Investigator's Stratagem, Swipe, Knockdown, Level 10: Improved KnockDown, Combat Reflexes, Level 14 Whirlwind Strike
Skills: Athletics

Liberty's Edge

I too used to think of DaS as a reusable True Strike. But it's definitely not.

True Strike is basically spending 1 action to get a +4 (on average) to your attack roll against a given foe.

DaS is spending 1 action to fish for a hit or a crit or to use your second attack with no MAP but with restrictions (other foe or maneuver).

Way I see it DaS is weaker than True Strike. I feel that, unless built specifically to benefit from hit/crit fishing, a Fighter might have better results using their action to Strike their foe rather than use DaS.


The Raven Black wrote:

I too used to think of DaS as a reusable True Strike. But it's definitely not.

True Strike is basically spending 1 action to get a +4 (on average) to your attack roll against a given foe.

DaS is spending 1 action to fish for a hit or a crit or to use your second attack with no MAP but with restrictions (other foe or maneuver).

Way I see it DaS is weaker than True Strike. I feel that, unless built specifically to benefit from hit/crit fishing, a Fighter might have better results using their action to Strike their foe rather than use DaS.

I totally see your point. The think is:

1) I'm not trying to make the "ultimate fighter build" here. I'm fully aware that sticking with pure fighter is mainly better in combat that mixing the investigator in the process. I'm looking for an ok build in combat, capable of help outside combat too!

2) I don't even know of good ways to introduce True Strike in the build. Never had thought of it before.


Gortle wrote:

This is something I put together earlier:

If you want to role play someone smarter upstairs, this is an intelligent fighter build which is effective. You can out-think your opponent. Devise a Stratagem is like a True Strike you can use every turn. Providing you have something else you can do, like trip that opponent or Strike at a different opponent, it is exceptionally good value. If you don’t have another option, don’t waste an action on it. You can also choose to go with a Power Attack if you have a good opening. Expect table varians on how DaS and Swipe work together - I think they don’t interact, but even if they do it's still a good choice.

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Breastplate or Full Plate, Guisarme
Class Feats: Level 1: Power Attack, Level 2: Investigator Dedication Level 4: Investigator's Stratagem, Swipe, Knockdown, Level 10: Improved KnockDown, Combat Reflexes, Level 14 Whirlwind Strike
Skills: Athletics

Nice build, but I just don't buy the fantasy of an fighter always using some kind of spear in combat. In my mind, spears and such are mainly used in wars.

What would you change in the build to trade the guisarme for a classic 2h sword?


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The Raven Black wrote:

I too used to think of DaS as a reusable True Strike. But it's definitely not.

True Strike is basically spending 1 action to get a +4 (on average) to your attack roll against a given foe.

DaS is spending 1 action to fish for a hit or a crit or to use your second attack with no MAP but with restrictions (other foe or maneuver).

Way I see it DaS is weaker than True Strike. I feel that, unless built specifically to benefit from hit/crit fishing, a Fighter might have better results using their action to Strike their foe rather than use DaS.

DaS and True Strike are very different. DaS allows you to "play with your attack roll". But for that you need to build your character to get a lot of versatility.

Examples:
- You roll high with DaS, between +5 and +9 compared to the enemy AC. You can for example elect to start with a Trip or Strike another target first as you know that your attack will hit even with a -5 from MAP.
- You roll just under the enemy AC, -1 or -2. You can spend an action to get Flanking bonus to guarantee a hit. On the other hand, if you roll high enough to get a hit, you can attack twice and ignore flanking bonus.
- You are under Guidance or an ally readied an action to Aid your attack roll. Depending on your DaS roll, you may choose to use it on your first attack or on the second one.

Properly used, DaS can be super fun and strong. But I've seen more often than not players using it only as some kind of True Strike. It's a valid use of DaS, but not the only one.


gutogrando wrote:
Gortle wrote:

This is something I put together earlier:

If you want to role play someone smarter upstairs, this is an intelligent fighter build which is effective. You can out-think your opponent. Devise a Stratagem is like a True Strike you can use every turn. Providing you have something else you can do, like trip that opponent or Strike at a different opponent, it is exceptionally good value. If you don’t have another option, don’t waste an action on it. You can also choose to go with a Power Attack if you have a good opening. Expect table varians on how DaS and Swipe work together - I think they don’t interact, but even if they do it's still a good choice.

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Breastplate or Full Plate, Guisarme
Class Feats: Level 1: Power Attack, Level 2: Investigator Dedication Level 4: Investigator's Stratagem, Swipe, Knockdown, Level 10: Improved KnockDown, Combat Reflexes, Level 14 Whirlwind Strike
Skills: Athletics

Nice build, but I just don't buy the fantasy of an fighter always using some kind of spear in combat. In my mind, spears and such are mainly used in wars.

What would you change in the build to trade the guisarme for a classic 2h sword?

Spears are used by armies not heroes? Yes I guess thats a real thing.

The polearm is about reach to put you in range of another target and helps control an area with AoO. Guisarme is because it gives you a trip option without changing weapons - because that is not a Strike therefore you can reroll against the same target. I choose the weapon because it has significant synergy. Feel free to try something else.
Gill Hook, Boarding Pike, Ranseur fit into much the same slot as Guisarme. But you may see all these in the same way. If you are prepared to give up a dice size then there are quite a lot of options.

Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe and going one handed now and if you think you may want to do an athletics maneuver works fine.
Or even Shield and weapon can work fine.

If you don't have a reach weapon then I would prioritise getting reach via the Lunge feat or a Enlarge spell/ancestry effect.

The fighter options that doesn't work with DaS are Double Slice or a Flurry fighter.


gutogrando wrote:

Nice build, but I just don't buy the fantasy of an fighter always using some kind of spear in combat. In my mind, spears and such are mainly used in wars.

What would you change in the build to trade the guisarme for a classic 2h sword?

The Irish loved their spears though. Tons of them among the gods and heroes (Cuchulainn with the gae bulg is the big one). The Chinese also liked their massive glaives (guan yu's green dragon cresent blade for example). And then you have assorted spears among the Europeans but those do tend to be nameless or obscure.

One thing to add to Gortle's advice above. All weapon groups have a bonus effect on critical hits if you have that unlocked (fighter does). Of these, the sword effect is not great. Flat-footed can be inflicted a number of ways, so it can often end up feeling like it didn't do anything. Compare it to hammers and flails, which inflict prone (which is flat-footed with extra penalties). As a fighter, you have an innate +10% crit chance so you might want to go over the crit specs.

Liberty's Edge

An alternate build to take advantage of DaS is crit fishing with dual wielding a Pick and a Light Pick.

I think I might try it on a Kobold with Weapon Familiarity to use the Tricky Pick for the Modular trait.

For True Strike in a Fighter/ MC Investigator build, if you don't have Free Archetype, you should take Trick Magic Item and Assurance in Arcana or Occultism to cast from a scroll. Note though that this requires a free hand and is rather action-consuming.

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