Hello! I am currently running the adventure path Carrion Crown: Wake of the Watcher. Inside that adventure there are points in the story where horrific experiences can cause people to go insane or the optional rule for rolling on the madness chart. A had a player end up getting amnesia. This same player has the toughness feat.
The ruling for amnesia:
A character suffering from amnesia cannot remember things; his name, his skills, and his past are all equal mysteries. He can build new memories, but any memories that existed before he became an amnesiac are suppressed.
Worse, the amnesiac loses all class abilities, feats, and skill ranks for as long as his amnesia lasts. He retains his base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, combat maneuver bonus, combat maneuver defense, total experience points, and hit dice (and hit points), but everything else is gone until the amnesia is cured. If a character gains a class level while suffering from amnesia, he may use any abilities gained by that class level normally. If the class level he gained was of a class he already possess levels in, he gains the abilities of a 1st-level character of that class, even though he is technically of a higher level in that class. If his amnesia is later cured, he regains all the full abilities of this class, including those gained from any levels taken while he was suffering from amnesia.
So when you have feats like Toughness you get HP. The ruling says you lose feats but maintain your HP. So in this case do you still lose the feat but maintain the HP. Also how does non magical amnesia cause someone to lose physical attributes like toughness or great fortitude and all of a sudden have less stamina?
What should I do as far as ruling is concerned? I have an idea what I want to do but I wanted to know what would the actual answer would be?
Its a poorly thought out condition to subject the PC to. Almost crippling, really. It says to turn off feats, but it also says HP remains the same. How its resolved is pretty much GM call territory.
I'd say that the HP should remain the same. Toughness is not really a learned skill. Even if the PC does not know, they are still Tough.
I’m inclined to agree with you on that one. Especially other things like great fortitude and the like.
It probably should read abilities, [abilities given by] feats, and skill ranks. You can't cleave, you can't power attack, but you don't suddenly lose hp.
Obviously it's a contradiction within the rules, and at this point since PF1 is in it's sunset, I would just make a ruling and stick to it.
In this case, I lean towards the additional HP granted sticking around.
That said, amnesia is basically character death. You either have the right spells to deal with it instantly, or the player might as well start a new character.
No logical character after losing all memory of themselves would think they should go out and do dangerous adventuring. Worse yet, in a higher level party they're just going to be dead weight and a liability for the other party members.
Obviously it's a contradiction within the rules, and at this point since PF1 is in it's sunset, I would just make a ruling and stick to it.
In this case, I lean towards the additional HP granted sticking around.
That said, amnesia is basically character death. You either have the right spells to deal with it instantly, or the player might as well start a new character.
No logical character after losing all memory of themselves would think they should go out and do dangerous adventuring. Worse yet, in a higher level party they're just going to be dead weight and a liability for the other party members.
Yeah I would agree with it as well. But my players are really attached to this character and everyone is invested in her well being getting better. We don’t currently have a cleric with heal but in two levels we will or we will have at least the money to acquire a scroll to fix her they are just going to hold out until then and besides they are in an underwater cave they really can’t go anywhere aside from forward.
HP are not just a physical attribute, they can also include luck, favor of the gods, and mental fortitude.
Since toughness is a feat that anyone can take, I would say it is a more mental fortitude than any of the others. Think of Steve Rogers in the first Capitan America movie, when he was getting beat up and kept getting up. At the time he did not have a lot going for him physically but still have the mental fortitude that allowed him to take a lot of punishment. Toughness could easily represent something in your background that makes you determined not be taken down again. When you get amnesia, you forget the lesson your learned from overcoming you challenges and as such have fewer HP.
Oracle's Curse (Ex): Each oracle is cursed, but this curse comes with a benefit as well as a hindrance. This choice is made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. The oracle's curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. An oracle's curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle. Each oracle must choose one of the following curses.
Since amnesia is not a deity it cannot remove an oracle’s curse. That also means you still keep all abilities and penalties of the curse of your full oracle level. In some cases, you may not be able to take advantage of the benefits. For example if the curse grants you spells known you still cannot cast them until you have the appropriate spell slots.
Amnesia does not allow you to choose a new mystery. You can only choose the mystery at 1st level and cannot be changed once the choice has been made. Amnesia does not remove levels it only removes the class ability. If you gain a level in oracle after getting amnesia you are not a 1st level oracle so you do not get to choose a mystery or curse. Your previous choice still remains in effect and you gain the appropriate abilities as if you were 1st level, but your actual oracle level is 1 higher than it was before. The same would also hold true for a sorcerer’s bloodline or any other irrevocable choices.
I was mistaken about being able to change your bloodline, but the only way to do that is the retraining rules. Amnesia will not allow you to do that. But the oracle’s mystery is not on the list of class abilities that can be retrained.
In the case of an oracle’s cruse RAW even retraining the level in oracle would not do that. If you retrained all your levels in oracle to something else you would still retain the curse, but the benefits you gain from it would be reduced. The Oracle’s curse advances even when you are no longer gaining levels in the oracle class.
You can lose your mystery by retraining out all your levels of oracle. I know someone is going to try and say after you retrain out all your oracle levels to something else you could retrain all the levels in the new class back to oracle, but that is too cheesy, and I would personally not allow that in any campaign I run.
Yeah I would agree with it as well. But my players are really attached to this character and everyone is invested in her well being getting better. We don’t currently have a cleric with heal but in two levels we will or we will have at least the money to acquire a scroll to fix her they are just going to hold out until then and besides they are in an underwater cave they really can’t go anywhere aside from forward.Obviously it's a contradiction within the rules, and at this point since PF1 is in it's sunset, I would just make a ruling and stick to it.
In this case, I lean towards the additional HP granted sticking around.
That said, amnesia is basically character death. You either have the right spells to deal with it instantly, or the player might as well start a new character.
No logical character after losing all memory of themselves would think they should go out and do dangerous adventuring. Worse yet, in a higher level party they're just going to be dead weight and a liability for the other party members.
I can understand the desire, but it (IMO) simply doesn't make sense.
Based on your statements the party is 9th level. I just don't see where a level 1 character (would they even actually be level 1 or just be a commoner?) would be able to stick close to the party. They could maybe tag along in the sense of journeying with the group, but needing to stay well away from danger. Any stray AOE effect is almost certainly death.
And while I agree they shouldn't just strand the character in this underwater cave, the character should also very quickly realize they have no business being with these people. I stand by my statement that no reasonable person of level 1 would willingly endanger themselves in a group of enemies appropriate to a level 9 encounter because they're almost guaranteed to die unless the gods (read GM) use Deus Ex Machina to make sure it doesn't happen.
IMO the best that can happen is they get out of the cave, drop the character off to get better, and come back for them when they have the magic. In which case, the player still needs to come up with a new character in the meantime. And even if the original character is restored, they'll be behind in levels (although not as bad) and will have had this massively challenging experiencing that depending on the circumstances might cause them to say "Sorry, this isn't for me anymore".
When this came up in a Carrion Crown game I played in, it was our brawler who got affected by it. In the middle of a dungeon, fighting a Color from Outer Space or something. He did okay, because he got to keep his BaB and punching things and hit points was about all he was used for anyway.
It wasn't...great, but it was the best character to get afflicted by it considering we had a gunslinger, investigator, arcanist, and a cleric besides.
Yeah I can see that being an hindrance because it was our arcanist that saw the color form space and got amnesia
Yeah I would agree with it as well. But my players are really attached to this character and everyone is invested in her well being getting better. We don’t currently have a cleric with heal but in two levels we will or we will have at least the money to acquire a scroll to fix her they are just going to hold out until then and besides they are in an underwater cave they really can’t go anywhere aside from forward.Obviously it's a contradiction within the rules, and at this point since PF1 is in it's sunset, I would just make a ruling and stick to it.
In this case, I lean towards the additional HP granted sticking around.
That said, amnesia is basically character death. You either have the right spells to deal with it instantly, or the player might as well start a new character.
No logical character after losing all memory of themselves would think they should go out and do dangerous adventuring. Worse yet, in a higher level party they're just going to be dead weight and a liability for the other party members.
I can understand the desire, but it (IMO) simply doesn't make sense.
Based on your statements the party is 9th level. I just don't see where a level 1 character (would they even actually be level 1 or just be a commoner?) would be able to stick close to the party. They could maybe tag along in the sense of journeying with the group, but needing to stay well away from danger. Any stray AOE effect is almost certainly death.
And while I agree they shouldn't just strand the character in this underwater cave, the character should also very quickly realize they have no business being with these people. I stand by my statement that no reasonable person of level 1 would willingly endanger themselves in a group of enemies appropriate to a level 9 encounter because they're almost guaranteed to die unless the gods (read GM) use Deus Ex Machina to make sure it doesn't happen.
IMO the best that can happen is they get out of the cave,...
Normally I would agree with you with this being a character death practically. Our party was determined to do go with it and hope for the best the amnesiac hid in a safe spot til we could clear the cave and defeat the outer god manifestation. I generated an npc to be rescued and the member played that until the section was over. We unfortunately do not have a cleric but have an oracle so we would have to wait til 12th but we do have a teleporting sorcerer that could get us back to Lepidstadt for the scroll.
Amnesia, as written, is a career ending condition unless it is reversed.
A bit like petrified, but you can move.
It is deeply unfun for the player because said player does not get to play his character.
Something you could do is a thing where the amnesia retreats at a rate of 1 day per level (so the player starts to reremember), and, once the character remembers everything, gets a free feat.
Throughout the whole dungeon there are so many opportunities for will saves for insanity and our fighter only had a +4 will save. And he was down 2 levels Becuase he was raised previsouly from being disintegrated by the color. So we was going into this dungeon with barely any will save and he continuously rolled above a 13 for each and every will save that by the end of it I told him he got iron will feat for free haha