After a bit of a hiatus, I'm looking to start a new campaign. I'm reading the 2e rules, though they aren't grabbing me, so I'm planning to stick with 1e. In general, I like to stick to Core only.
I've GM'd and played in long running campaigns before, and some issue arose that I'd like to try and avoid. The main issue I noticed was trying to create rewarding combat. I was told by a player how terrifying a Linnorm was, after he looked it up after the game. They killed it before it got to act, and that's without a surprise round. I find players are often able to annihilate their way through most enemies and bosses without blinking an eye, and attempts to up the CR they face can easily flip this, putting them in no win situations. The problem seems most noticeable when fighting a BBEG, the action economy just isn't there. I've occasionally experienced boss combats that have gone on for 10 to 12 rounds (and not just as a slog), and they are the ones talked about fondly for years.
I feel there's probably a few rule tweaks that would help, though I've never implemented any, so I'm unsure of the unforeseen consequences. A non exhaustive list of the ones that popped into my head:
Getting rid of "Ready vs Spell Casting." It kills a casters spell 95% of the time, and make counterspelling redundant.
Potentially making bigger creature 5-foot step larger.
Reduce durations. Eg, stinking cloud nauseated lasted 2 to 5 rounds after leaving the cloud, far longer than most fights last.
I've considered increasing HPs of monsters in general.
I'm not a fan of 5e, but I thought what they did with bosses was great, Lair Abilities / Legendary actions added a real threat to those big, single enemies. Some equivalency may work.
Like I said before, I like playing Core, I find the power creeps obviously and irritating. Are there classes that don't have that creep. For example, my little experience with playing an Oracle just felt like a Sorcerer version of a Cleric.
What are peoples opinions of the Unchained classes, when compared to other Core classes. Do they have too much of a power bump or balanced nicely?
I'd appreciate any advice on what worked for other people and groups.
UBarbarian - my impression is it’s a slight swap, fixes the Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome issue, but is generally not a power change. UMonk - stronger, but not game-breaking. URogue - a stronger version of what’s generally thought to be the weakest class.
What are peoples opinions of the Unchained classes, when compared to other Core classes. Do they have too much of a power bump or balanced nicely?
unSummoner is still too strong, not the least because they didn't even touch the super strong Summon Monster SLA, but at least it doesn't overshadow 98% of all martials with their Eidolo while also having the spell selection of a full caster.
unBarb is a much better made class than cBarb, with a higher floor (i.e. better at low optimization levels) and lower ceiling (worse at high optimization levels). Ragecycling was always nothing but a cheesy abuse.
unRogue still has the problem that a melee with d8 HD, medium BAB, no accuracy boost (before hitting), and the worst saves a PC class can possibly have is quite frankly an utterly stupid idea. It still isn't actually good at skills (because almost all unlocks suck and it has no boost to skills) either, and the machanics don't match the flavor. That said, it's way more playable and enjoyable than the de facto NPC class that is the cRogue.
unMonk is a much needed upgrade to cMonk. Its class features actually work together rather than against one another, and it can even have good outfight utiity. Unlike for the other classes, where I'd outright ban the original classes, there are a bunch of cMonk archetype that are good and interesting, and thus both versions should be allowed.
I'm not sure what you mean by "more rewarding combat" other than you want combat to last longer.
I think it is typical that simplistic combats vs a somewhat focused group takes 3-5 rounds. Better tactics can stretch that out (withdraw is an option, buff and come back). Mixing monster's can also stretch that out. Spellcasters on the foe's side can definitely alter the combat dynamics.
A simple fix is to adjust HD upward on increment (such as d8->d10) AND increasing nat'l armor bonuses by 2 which is almost adding +1 CR.
Adding Advanced Template is definitely a boost and +1 CR.
So, CRs should be APL+2 to +3(hard)
another option is to move away from purely martial challenges, more skill checks, puzzles, and 1/4 of challenges allowing for a diplomatic solution.
I'd use the PFS Scenarios to test your PCs {select just a few}.
0-05 Mists of Mwangi (T:1-5) {Absalom - BM}
1-35 Voice in the Void (T:1-7) {Absalom - BM}
2-11 Penumbral Accords (T:) {Absalom - BM}
6-02 The Silver Mount Collection (T:3-7) {Absalom - BM}
3-07 Echoes of the Overwatched (T:) {Absalom - BM}
7-09 The Blakros Connection (T:5-9) {Absalom - BM}
2-21 The Dalsine Affair (T:1-7)
3-21 The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment (T:1-5)
5-01 Glass River Rescue (T:1-5) {Razmiran}
2-06, 07, 09 Heresy of Man 1, 2, 3 (T:5-9) {Rahadoum}
5-07 Port Godless (T:5-9) {Rahadoum}
4-03 The Golemworks Incident (T:5-9)
4-04 King of the Stoval Stairs (T:7-11) {Varisia}
5-20 Sealed Gate (T:7-11) {Realm ot Mammoth Lords, KBaird}
3-26 Portal of the Sacred Rune (T:7-11)
Unchained Barbarian is a slight downgrade from the CRB version in my opinion:
-) It does a little less damage with two-handed weapons.
-) It doesn't get a buff to fortitude saves while raging (from the increased Con score).
-) The new Stance rage powers are very un-ragey (taking a move action to enter a stance after entering rage just feels wrong to me).
+) It does a little more damage with two-weapon fighting.
+) It works a little better with Dex builds.
+) The 'temporary HP' system does seem pretty nice.
I really wanted to like it, but it definitely seems like a slight downgrade to me (not even taking rage-cycling shenanigans into consideration) in general...
I really wanted to like it, but it definitely seems like a slight downgrade to me (not even taking rage-cycling shenanigans into consideration) in general...
The temp HP is the main selling point. It reduces the healing needed after a fight, and it increases the damage the Barb can take before dying much more than the con boost from cRage.
Let's assume a 8th level Barb with 14 Con using PFS's HD rule. A non-raging Barb dies after taking 92 damage (unconscious after 79 damage). A raging cBarb dies after taking 95 damage. A raging unBarb dies after taking 108 damage (unconscious after 95 damage). cBarb can compensate with Raging Vitality... if the player knows about it and is willing (and has the Con) to invest a feat. cBarb with Raging Vitality would die after 122 damage, falling unconscious after 103 damage.
And while I totally agree that unBarb should have a way of entering a rage stance as part of rage or as a free or swift action (and have been saying so for years), being able to get an accuracy boost without sacrificing AC is also a boon for survivability. Note that the idea of rage stances is as old as the CRB, as the original is Guarded Stance.
More rewarding combat? Linnorm dies in 1 round, before it could even act? Sounds to me "rewarding" just means "it'd be nice if combats looked more like action movies or video games."
Think about it: in PF1, the absolute WEAKEST Linnorm is the Tailless Crag Linnorm. At CR 13, this Gargantuan dragon still has AC 28, 172 HP, tons of defenses, a breath weapon that can do minor fire damage again on it's second round, poison in it's bite, etc. It ALSO has the Linnorm senses so it's tough to sneak up on.
Now just based on the CR, I'm guessing the earliest most GM's would throw this beast against their PCs would be at APL9. The dragon's only got a 5 Int; not an animal by any stretch, but not really the "mastermind" type main villain either.
If 4 level 9 PCs just stumbled on a CR13 tailless crag linnorm in a large chamber at the bottom of a dungeon, charged in and started fighting, it really WOULD be a terrifying fight. For the PCs to take this thing out in 1 round, the players and their characters likely knew what to expect and did a little planning ahead of time.
But what happens if you stop thinking about this monster as a stat block and consider how it ACTUALLY lives, survives and thrives for hundreds of years.
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It has a Swim speed; even without water breathing, swimming is superior to flying. A creature partially submerged in water can make ranged attacks from inside said water (or in this case, pyroclastic flow) or melee attacks at other submerged foes while gaining the benefits of Cover or even full Cover if they use a Move action to fully submerge.
The dragon is immune to Fire, sure... but also poisons, mind-affecting effects, and Curse effects. Why not put one or all of these in the environment it lives in? Imagine if the PCs teleported into a massive chamber at the bottom of a caldera, only to find the majority of the floor is liquid magma quickly flowing deeper into the earth. The air is a thick miasma of poisonous vapors and the entire chamber, centuries ago, was warded with Symbol of Sleep spells or minor curses.
Now to actual combat. Why on Golarion's Green Earth would this dragon EVER fly? It has a Clumsy rating, though it has a 50' speed. I suppose if it thought it could escape that way, maybe... but a 30' swim speed lets it take Run actions and Charge actions in water (or, again, a pyroclastic flow). While partially submerged it's AC goes up, it's harder to get surrounded in melee, and it's got plenty of mobility.
If you put areas of shoreline around for PCs to conveniently stand on, and the PCs do that for some reason, consider: the "shore" around magma flows is usually just the cooled stuff forming a thin layer over the liquid underneath. In other words, it's not the MOST solid ground. A Tailless Crag Linnorm has true seeing, so it can see through magma, it has a Swim speed, and finally it has a +24 on the Str check to break objects. Instead of just sitting in place in melee with a PC, such a dragon could use 1 round to fully submerge under the lava flow, swim itself into position, then on round 2 come smashing up from underneath any PC stupid enough to keep standing where they're standing. Good luck swimming in fast-flowing magma L9 PC.
A fight in the lair of a tailless crag linnorm then shouldn't be a wide open chamber with plenty of solid ground, the dragon flying and everyone having tons of light to see by. Rather...
1. magma floor: treat as fast flowing water that also deals tons of Fire damage
2. ambient heat: this should be environmentally significant; mortals not immune to effects such as heatstroke should be making Fort saves every 10 minutes or suffering Fatigue or worse
3. steam vents: some squares on the map are constantly obscured by boiling hot steam; fire damage, certainly, but can also block line of sight. These can be an advantage for both the dragon OR the PCs
4. inhaled toxins: the very air here is poison as minerals dissolve in the magma. Toss out a DC 19 poison save, very easy to make at L9, but it is CONSTANT unless the PCs somehow hold their breath
5. seeping hallucinogen: again, a toxic substance in the air causes a mind-affecting effect constantly. Thing is, this is a higher save DC than the poison and kicks in 1/minute, every minute that the PCs remain here
6. curses/symbols: a third layer of defense, the walls/ceiling radiate a magic that either inflicts a Curse or a Paralysis/Sleep effect. The dragon is of course immune, but they know enough to move to areas of their lair within the area of effect of these effects, trying to goad unwitting foes to follow them into the danger zones
7. thin floor squares: these hardened magma shelves are actually fairly brittle as far as stone goes; they have a DC 30 break check meaning the dragon or the PCs can smash through them; directly beneath these squares is the pyroclastic flow
8. areas of magical darkness: the same servants in pre-history that warded this chamber for the linnorm also dropped sheets of magical darkness around. The dragon's true seeing pierces these easily but PCs may have to expend resources to mitigate the effect
No one of these things is particularly fight-ending to the PCs, but each represents an additional layer of challenge the characters need to deal with. Just upon teleporting into the chamber, PCs need to make multiple Fort and Will saves. After that, unless they're flying, they need to find a square to stand in.
The dragon is reclining in a fast-flowing river of molten magma, only it's head exposed. The PCs are going to have to find a way to attack the creature without boiling, burning, or drowning. If they appear immune to the fire but are foolish enough to be moving on foot, the dragon takes two rounds to submerge and then smash out the floor underneath them; if they take to the air, the dragon swims into an area of magical darkness, further obscured by several steam vents.
The BIGGEST threat to this monster are ranged attacks. Four PCs hovering in the air 30' above the dragon and peppering it with tons of bullets/arrows/sling bullets/rays/aoe spells etc would be a death sentence to this monster, especially if those L9 PCs knew ahead of time to make themselves temporarily immune to fire. My advice, in that situation, would either be to have the dragon flee for a bit or, if you really want to up the threat level, swap out Improved Bull Rush for Throw Anything. It wouldn't be much, but maybe the dragon could be whipping huge chunks of stone from it's clawed limbs.
Still, just remember: outside the magma, the dragon has a 28 AC; inside the flow, partially submerged it's got a 32. Fully submerged it's got a 36 AC AND the PCs lose line of sight.
All of that adds mechanics to the point I'm trying to get at; think of the dragon, or ANY monster you add to combat scene, as an actual, living creature. If they're out hunting/foraging, how would they normally protect themselves? If in their lair, what do their defenses/immunities tell you about what they can stand?
Consider the lowly CR 1/3 Medium sized humanoid skeleton. These creatures are DR 5/Bludgeoning. What if their animator were smart enough to literally coat the floor in jagged pieces of bone, broken glass and rusty metal bits? Treat every square as caltrops; any PC entering these squares suffers an attack against their feet and, if successful, takes 1 point of Piercing damage and has slowed movement. Only, the skeletons don't care; even on a successful attack the damage doesn't get through their DR so they are never slowed.
The least frightening thing in the entire game is a monster the players and by extension their characters know everything about. If you've telegraphed a fire dragon at the end of your dungeon, knowing you're going to throw in this crag linnorm, the PCs may be clever enough to guess what that monster is. If they do, all the cool powers in the world aren't going to be enough to make the fight interesting, or rewarding or whatever.
The only thing the PCs and players rarely pay attention to is their environment. The creatures that LIVE in those environments pay attention though. A shift in air pressure could trigger a cluster of cave bats; the noise from that might alert nearby monsters that threats or food are in their area. If a monster relies on solid ground for movement, they're not going to willingly jog through a swamp for food. These are all factors you need to consider when planning out fight scenes.
You are an evil, evil man and I need to take GM lessons from you.
Yeah, but suddenly that CR 13 encounter vs APL of 9 is more like CR 20 (multiple hazardous environs), which of course would make it harder, possibly even too difficult, even to the point that the GM is being a jerk.
Was that evil? I was just thinking of how a linnorm would live. I've done stuff like this in my own games:
1. x2 vampire spawn commanded to remain in a chamber with a pair of braziers. They don't sleep and have passive Perception of 21. When they sense anyone trying to enter the chamber (which is locked), they stoke up the braziers and toss in diseased smoke sticks; essentially these fill the chamber with smoke and also produce Burnt Othur Fumes poison for PCs to inhale. The undead don't breathe, the smoke provides Concealment and as an added bonus the vampire spawn have a gaseous form that could blend them perfectly with the vapors
2. A group of PCs were foolish enough to engage an Adult Black Dragon in open swamp. The main center of the encounter area is a huge fetid pool 15-20' deep, with several Large-sized channels connected to it. None of the PCs thought to pick up any swimming items or magic ahead of time, despite knowing well in advance they'd be fighting here. Black dragons have a special Water Breathing ability where they can be fully submerged but use their Breath Weapon and special abilities. The dragon would move under the deeper waters, hiding itself if possible, setting up 2 or more PCs in lines and delivering BW attacks, then using spells and abilities, finally surging out of the water to make charge attacks with its bite plus Power Attack. As an added bonus, the dragon's Alarm SLA was cast on several land points that the PCs could approach from so the dragon was ALWAYS aware the characters were entering the combat area
I never think of it as trying to be a killer GM or anything, I'm not trying to weaponize the environment against the PCs or something, I just look at the monsters/NPCs I'm throwing in a fight and think: where would they live/survive, and how would that survival go?
Mites have a climb speed, Scent, 90' Darkvision, decent Perception for their CR and Vermin Empathy. They're going to live near vermin, using these creatures as hunting helpers or mounts, and make their most secure dens/lairs/chambers at least 10' off any solid ground in Small sized spaces.
Taking it a step further, they may use scent marking to alert their fellows of things or to lay out trails. With no other info in their fluff I've got to assume they're omnivorous, eating whatever they and their vermin helpers can reach/bring down: vertical prey/plants, waterborne foodstuffs if their vermin mounts can easily access ponds and such, and so on.
Last but not least... mites are fey. The standard stat block gives them skills around handling vermin and stealth. Changing these skills up however, fey get Craft and Disguise as class skills. Finally, mites get a racial bonus on Sleight of Hand.
With a little bit of work these creatures can make poor but serviceable disguises, using Sleight of Hand to entertain gullible crowds. At the same time they can pick pockets with the same skill. They work around vermin constantly; why wouldn't at least a couple mites have Craft: Alchemy to milk poisons or extract silk or something from their pets/mounts?
So again... just from thinking critically about how mites could actually use ALL of their potential to exist and thrive on the "fringes of society" as their fluff describes, I could imagine more wild mites as poisoned dart using ambush hunters from dense forest canopies, while more urban mites could be disguised as beggars and fleecing weak-willed folk out of coins, light, small sized items and such.
In their lairs they're going to be on walls and high ledges, using Cover as best they can. Mites will make scent-based "alarms" for their kinfolk with Prestidigitation. Some that might have access to nearby urban areas could have makeshift alchemy labs while the defenders of the lair might be carrying acid, oil, poison, Tanglefoot bags, alchemical grease pots and such.
All of that, just from thinking about how mites would live with their racial abilities. I don't know if this would make combat any more "rewarding" but these kinds of thought exercises open up lots of other options.
A standard CR 1 mite encounter is 4 mites with darts that hid in shadows and try to throw their darts or use Doom on their foes. With a bit of thought, this might instead be x4 mites on uneven cavern walls using clefts in the rock, bulges of flowstone, stalactites and stalagmites as Cover. They're risking poisoning themselves to tip their darts in Giant Centipede poison before throwing them. Better yet, they're laying down patches of grease, tossing out web-based Tanglefoot Bags, or even hurling a flask of acid.
You are an evil, evil man and I need to take GM lessons from you.
Yeah, but suddenly that CR 13 encounter vs APL of 9 is more like CR 20 (multiple hazardous environs), which of course would make it harder, possibly even too difficult, even to the point that the GM is being a jerk.
I'm not trying to be a jerk and obviously I don't know the players' experience level or the builds of the characters. If I did, I'd adjust based around that.
The goal is never to outright kill the PCs, for me anyway. In my own games, I'd likely only add 1 or 2 of the 8 items I listed above. The players in my games often don't think about alternate movement types than Fly and don't prioritize ways to see through anything other than magical darkness, so just having a magma river and steam vents could make this a devastating fight for them.
On the other hand, they are VERY good at figuring out monsters before they encounter them. It is unlikely that my players wouldn't have made several Knowledge checks ahead of time and be highly resistant to Fire, have Endure Elements running and be prepped with their best ranged attacks. Using Readied actions, they'd be slowly grinding the linnorm down from a safe distance any time it pops up out of the magma.
I'm not sure you need to start hacking rules to make Pathfinder combat more interesting or rewarding. A lot of it comes down to combat design.
1. Always use multiple enemy types, even if its just dudes with multiple weapon types (archers, melee, mages). This adds a "prioritization puzzle" to your combat, which is good.
2. Always use more than 1 creature, even in BBEG fights. You want to start the fight with roughly even action economy, or overwhelming action economy that can be quickly cut down to par (i.e. low CR mooks)
3. Use more interesting battlefields. Cover, obscurement, hazards, and the like will obviously make a more interesting battlefield than a blank room.
4. Alternate goals. Someone already mentioned this but if the PCs need to accomplish something other than "beat down the evil dude", you add another layer to the aforementioned "prioritization puzzle". Pull the levers, solve the puzzle, save the baby, all while under fire!
5. Move more. I think the biggest issue "rules wise" with Pathfinder is how static it can make combat. Once you get into full attacking position you're disincentivized from moving or even repositioning due to AoOs. Giving your enemies more movement abilities that let them engage and disengage will let you explore more of the battlefield. If you lean really heavily on this, you may want to give your PCs some fun movement items as well so they can keep up.
6. Regarding boss fights specifically, you just cram 2-3 monsters in one body and call it good. One body, but it gets +X pools of hit points that act as boss stages, and +1 action per pool alive. Purge any conditions or debuffs on phase switch. This is called the Paragon System by the Angry GM, its largely system neutral and its worked better than 5e's legendary actions.
Paragon Stuff
Can't speak for unchained classes. Just getting back into Pathfinder, but I've heard very good things about them.
I think it's just a divergence between the GM's desire/expectations and metrics as to what makes a good combat and the player's martial effectiveness and strategies versus Challenges to date. The players may be triumphantly happy. So it's not a PF/mechanics problem, more of a CR / encounter crafting issue and overall game strategy.
Again, to gauge the PC's effectiveness I listed a battery of scenarios.
IF they're martially superior I'd try the PF1 Org Play Scenarios for Rise of the Runelords series, it is rather challenging. It would mesh with the Blakros series and then with the AP.
In the Scenarios and AP you'll have to doublecheck any casters spellbook and spells, make sure they are reasonable choices. Trade out some charges on high powered items (100->50%) to >scribe< scrolls and other more useful items & maintain WBL. Some CRs are a bit low.
If your players are having too easy a time add 20% to WBL, try more expendable magic which the foes actually use. Scrolls of Heroism, Hero's Feast, Cat Grace, etc Wands of obscuring mist, shield, mage armor, blur, etc, Aegis of Recovery, Talismans, Cloaks, Weapons... a lowly Summon Monster 1 @ 3 Lvl scroll can get a high level spell as a response, yay.
I feel that challenges shouldn't be all martial. This is the problem PFS had in year 0-4 and then people complained about it but that's the environment they created and encouraged. So going to 25% non-combat challenges mixed things up a bit and rewarded a wider range of character designs and skill sets. It was a good move that de-escalated the one-trick pony min-maxed guys who went off to create super intimidating bards (LoL).
In the OP the party moved in on a linnorm and took it out in 1 round, before it acted, which wasn't a Surprise round. That is... impressive. But it points to a larger issue; if the bad guys have an ability to surround themselves in mist, or buff their Dex or whatever, are they using it?
If your PCs are steamrolling your encounters and you decide to give them consumable magic items to buff the bad guys up a bit, the bad guys need to reasonably anticipate and then utilize these items. If the PCs are high enough level to teleport in, surround the linnorm (or whatever) and unleash a wave of violence so powerful that a Gargantuan dragon of CR 13 or higher evaporates in 6 seconds, I don't know that a wand of Shield would make a difference.
Honestly, that's one of the reasons I say tie some of this to the monster's environment. The linnorm might not get off a wand of Obscuring Mist, but if it's surrounded in boiling hot steam vents it's already GOT a mist effect, plus some fire damage it can ignore but the party might not.
But barring that, if you're dealing with lower level PCs Azothath is making a really great point here. If the bad guys have access to and the capability of using items, why WOULDN'T they cloak themselves in force, or mist, or invisibility or mirror images or whatever?
But barring that, if you're dealing with lower level PCs Azothath is making a really great point here. If the bad guys have access to and the capability of using items, why WOULDN'T they cloak themselves in force, or mist, or invisibility or mirror images or whatever?
NO, not just lower level but YES, encounters definitely can be better integrated with better gold expenditures.
clearly you underestimate the effects of lower level spells. It's about having a better strategy, combat effectiveness, and efficient use of power/gold. You also don't want to leave extras about for the PCs as treasure as they seem to be powerful enough, so what is left is pretty paltry.
Tightening the belt of encounters does add to the difficulty. You want to usually stay within the WBL numbers for that encounter to keep the CR static.
What is critical is the 3 rounds needed to cast/use those buffs before combat. Delay tactics and misdirection, spies, alarms, etc are all very useful.
I didn't comment on the initial linnorm example as really it just shows there are some issues. The players may be rather happy. So I'd ask, "What's the GMs goal in running?"... If your not happy running a game then pass it to one of your players, kick back and enjoy the mayhem.
