I'm planning on playing a Druid, and the Wild Order seems pretty cool, but it looks like it's kinda different from 1E. Your shapes have a set AC and attack modifier, so I'm wondering if it's worth it to maximise STR and DEX, and if putting points in other stats is a waste of stat points. Taking Animal Form as a baseline, it says this:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
Animal Form is a second-level spell, so you'll get it at level 3. If I max Strength, a regular to-hit would be 4 (STR) + 3 (level) + 2 (trained), is also 9. From level 4 onward, it's more profitable to use my own STR modifier for to-hit, but damage-wise, it'll still be a +1. I can theoretically leave my Strength at 10 and have four stat bumps to divide over other stats (most likely 3, since the class bump is WIS).
Similarly, I can take Aerial Form at level 8, which gives me an attack modifier of +16, while the attack modifier the Druid grants me would be 4 (STR) + 8 (level) + 2 (trained) = 14. Again, later on, my innate to-hit will outgrow the spell's to-hit, but is that worth investing all those points?
Similarly, both Animal Form and Aerial Form set my AC to a certain number (Animal Form is 16+level, so AC 19 at level 3, whereas a fully maximised DEX would give me the same). Is it worth it to invest in DEX while I'm out of shape (apart from boosting Reflex save and skills and such)? People who have experience with this class, how often do you stay in your regular shape?
So, in short, what's a good stat spread for a shapeshifting Druid? Should I still max WIS if I intend to be more of a melee character than a ranged character? Is it viable to put stat increases in my off-stats (such as Charisma)? Which additional shapes are worth picking up? Hell, is Animal Form even worth it with its measly +1 damage?
Thanks a lot!
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I have two proto-builds. One that's fairly balanced, but not stellar in either form, and one that's made for Animal Form:
Mister Mediocre: Skilled Human
STR +2
DEX +3
CON +2
INT +0
WIS +2
CHA +0
I can distribute some points in Dexterity to other places, if necessary.
Pros: Has quite a few skills, which is nice.
Cons: With a modifier of +2, both his Strength and Wisdom are mediocre, so damage/saves will be lacklustre in either shape.
Halfling Beast:
STR -1
DEX +2
CON +2
INT +0
WIS +4
CHA +2
Points in Charisma can go somewhere else as well, but considering I get Intimidate, I might as well make use of it.
Pros: Makes optimal use of the shapes, but is worthless outside of that (melee-wise). Has some stat points to spare on other stuff, if necessary. Also makes a great caster.
Cons: Damage will be terrible in Halfling form.
Hell, I can even just go all-in on Wild Morph, but then I might as well be any other class and use a regular weapon.
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You need Strength on a few odd levels to get a plus 1 bonus. It also qualifies you for a few feats. But you don't have to take them.
I think it is often better to use you abilitiy score elsewhere. The wild shape itself is enough.
Don't forget that a Druid is a good caster all by itself, so you have two modes of play, charge in and melee, or hang back and cast.
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Just checking to make sure you understand that Wild Shape is a Focus spell - which means that it heightens automatically and so the Animal Form (or other battle form spell effects) will also be heightened.
And the heightened versions of Animal Form and similar have different bonuses than the base level version of the spell. For example, at character level 5 Wild Shape and the Animal Form effects that it uses will be heightened to 3rd level and will have an attack bonus of +14, not the +9 bonus that it had as a 2nd level spell. At spell level 4th, Animal Form has an attack bonus of +16, size large, and 10 foot reach for your melee attacks.
I have heard that Animal Form will eventually run out of steam and you will want to move on to something else - but it does take quite a while for that to happen.
You're neglecting the item bonus to hit from handwraps. As I understand it, as long as you're using your own unarmed modifier, it will include the item bonus but not striking runes.
As for your ability scores, you can't dump dex because you don't have heavy armor with bulwark to fix your saves. That leaves one real stat of choice to boost. If you're planning to fight wild shaped, it should be str because accuracy is the single most important variable in damage estimation.
My base statline would be 16/12/14/8/18/8
Something human-ish is assumed.
Hide armor will keep you at -1 AC unshifted until level 5. You keep the 18 wis for saves, initiative, skills and the occasional offensive spell. 16 str for accuracy so you're useful when shifted. 14 con so you're slightly better than paper and 12 dex to round out your saves. Int and Cha are useless here and thus dumped to boost one of the above.
If you only want shifting as a backup option, consider dumping str entirely to focus on your saves. In that case, 8,14,16,8,18,12.
As far as forms go, animal form stops scaling at spell level 5. You should probably take dino eventually because it's needed for spell level 7. Aerial form is required for dragon form and Phoenix (monstrosity).
Something to remember is that the druid is a caster first and foremost. The real value of wild shape as a druid (as opposed to fighter or monk cheese) is, in my experience, making up for lopsided party compositions and avoiding the miserable early game caster experience. Your wild shape damage will never truly impress, your AC in some shapes is questionable and if you're ever in a tight space, your best forms are locked due to size and lesser forms will really be screwed for AC.
As a general rule, to keep wild shape (and all the form spells) relevant, you need to cast one at your highest possible spell level level. Don't try to use Animal form, which doesn't scale beyond spell level 5, at character level 15 or something like that. Your stats will be too low to matter.
So if you want to use wild shape in the long term, you need to pick up additional shapes from feats. As it happens, I was comparing wild shape stats just yesterday and most shapes will slightly improve your attack bonus and AC on average. Again, this is assuming you're using one that's heightened to your top spell level.
High strength mostly allows you to keep your lower level forms going a bit longer - mostly due to the +2 status bonus to attack you get from wildshape if your own attack is higher. The problem is, that this only helps your attack. Your AC, damage and temp HP will fall behind severely. So I wouldn't say you need strength at all.
Now, all this is only true if you do nothing but fight in wildshape every fight - in which case id say, go play a barbarian. If you stay in your normal form occasionallyto throw some spells, you can either still ignore strength and rely on cantrips as "fillers" or you get some means to attack physically (a weapon, wild morph or some unarmed attack from your ancestry).
You're neglecting the item bonus to hit from handwraps. As I understand it, as long as you're using your own unarmed modifier, it will include the item bonus but not striking runes.
The problem is, using your own attack bonus (+2 status) is only possible if it's actually HIGHER than that of the form spell. If you cast from your top spell level that only happens ONCE: at level 4, where your attack bonus is higher than that of animal form. And yes, that is with maxed strength and handwraps.
Just checking to make sure you understand that Wild Shape is a Focus spell - which means that it heightens automatically and so the Animal Form (or other battle form spell effects) will also be heightened.
Ah yeah, thanks! I realised it's a Focus spell, but hadn't looked at the heightened options yet. That indeed changes a lot of things.
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As implied above, yet not addressed, if you want to spend the majority of your time fighting in melee as an animal, Barbarian (w/ Animal Instinct) would be a stronger, simpler route. There's a large price being paid for that spellcasting, so if spells are secondary to you, don't go Druid.
Wild Shape is great to become a secondary melee participant, amazing even since it requires little investment, yet still secondary. When facing the BBEG for instance, your best Wild Shape will struggle and those 8 h.p./level w/ average AC will not suffice (and it might feel all the worse for not having access to that Heal spell which would would rectify it!).
There are also other alternatives if melee-focused, like Fighter w/ Druid MCD (or even Rogue for Sneak Attack and skirmish feats), a Summoner w/ Meld With Eidelon, a more bestial Ancestry w/ Monk, and more.
And like Humble Gamer mentioned, if not going for offense/counteracting w/ your Druid's spells, lower Wisdom works fine, allowing you to max out that Con (which IMO is the main stat if using Battle Forms) and get enough Str to qualify for feats which need it (which you may or may not want, so check first).
The default wild Shape (animal) holds well until like lvl11, after that you will need another form, mainly because of Armor Class, the common routes are usually Dragon (requires Soaring Form) or Plant route, and then both ends routes ends into monstrosity.
Remember to retrain forms that you are not using anymore for other stuff.
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I've played a druid through almost all of Extinction Curse. He contributes by a combination of AoE damage spells, wild shaping, buff spells, healing (medic archetype combined with the occassional Heal spell) and using wild shape for "tricks" (mobility, sneaking, massive flight in dragon form, etc).
Not the best at any one of those but the combination is pretty good. The key is to take advantage of your flexibility. You wild shape when you need to preserve spells or there are lots of weaker foes around. Or sometimes the exact opposite siutation where you're fighting a boss who is saving or crit saving against everything you throw at them
He never bothered maxing out his STR, his highest stat is definitely Wisdom.
I'd certainly consider branching out into one of the other druid "subclases" as wild shape will only take about 1/2 your feats. Arguments can be made for all of them but personally I took Storm Order because I like Tempest Surge. But be aware that (until reasonably high levels) you only get to restore 1 focus point a battle so you pretty much get to cast only 1 focus spell a battle except in the direst circumstances. Which DO come up :-(
One option that I REALLY liked was spontaneous spellcaster. I picked it up at about level 10 or so (when the book came out) when I had enough resources to survive the lower number of spells. At those levels it is both REALLY useful and REALLY expensive. At least once a session I was really glad I had it, at least once a session I wished I had more spells :-)
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You're neglecting the item bonus to hit from handwraps. As I understand it, as long as you're using your own unarmed modifier, it will include the item bonus but not striking runes.The problem is, using your own attack bonus (+2 status) is only possible if it's actually HIGHER than that of the form spell. If you cast from your top spell level that only happens ONCE: at level 4, where your attack bonus is higher than that of animal form. And yes, that is with maxed strength and handwraps.
You're absolutely right. All this time I've had it in my head that you could choose to use your bonus anyway and get the status bonus to gain an edge over the base form (which is why I mentioned dumping str entirely if you had a reliable source of status bonus). I guess that option is purely for multiclass cheese then.
I remember that somebody did made a chart meant to show what level a STR 16 wild shape druid would have gotten the form status bonus, but I couldn't find it.
It's level 4. Only level 4. I made a similar chart for myself.
Again, this is assuming you use a form spell heightened to your top spell level.
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I remember that somebody did made a chart meant to show what level a STR 16 wild shape druid would have gotten the form status bonus, but I couldn't find it.It's level 4. Only level 4. I made a similar chart for myself.
Again, this is assuming you use a form spell heightened to your top spell level.
Yes assuming you are always taking the best form possible. To use it you have to be in a lower level form for some reason, or be a multiclass martial.
It's not fit for purpose.
I remember that somebody did made a chart meant to show what level a STR 16 wild shape druid would have gotten the form status bonus, but I couldn't find it.It's level 4. Only level 4. I made a similar chart for myself.
Again, this is assuming you use a form spell heightened to your top spell level.
Yes assuming you are always taking the best form possible. To use it you have to be in a lower level form for some reason, or be a multiclass martial.
It's not fit for purpose.
Hence my conclusion that it's not meant to be used this way. I've remarked on it before, but if you choose to use your own unarmed attack modifier, whether higher or lower, you should use the +2. With "choose" to be read essentially as is for the focus spell, not referring to the spells of the shapes used.
Makes sense for a wild shape druid. Makes no sense for a martial taking the druid archetype, but that is a simple fix, it should be druid only.
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Ok, but then you have given up on trying to play the rules. You are just going with whatever makes sense. Suddenly everyone is playing a different game.
I wouldn't mind it if it was an edge character case. But Wildshape is a core part of a well established class. It should be rock solid and clear. It is just not. Then they have gone an expanded it with all these ancestry feats that grant battle forms.
You can't grapple or escaape in wildshape
The +2 status bonus to attack applies in all the wrong places
Additional damage most likely adds maybe
Very pathetic Paizo. Its been years now. It should be clear.
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if you choose to use your own unarmed attack modifier, whether higher or lower, you should use the +2
You cannot use your own attack bonus unless it is higher than the one provided by the form spell.
Source: Mark Seifter, 6 months ago (when he was still Design Manager at paizo).
The way he says it might imply that it could change at some point but for now, this is the ruling by RAW and Mark agrees with it.
If you plan to stay in Wild Shape form, I would max strength. Dex isn't as important as you can't replace your form AC with your normal AC though it does help for reflex saves. If you want to do a hybrid druid, max wisdom and then your physical stats.
Ok, but then you have given up on trying to play the rules. You are just going with whatever makes sense. Suddenly everyone is playing a different game.
I wouldn't mind it if it was an edge character case. But Wildshape is a core part of a well established class. It should be rock solid and clear. It is just not. Then they have gone an expanded it with all these ancestry feats that grant battle forms.
You can't grapple or escape in wildshape
The +2 status bonus to attack applies in all the wrong places
Additional damage most likely adds maybeVery pathetic Paizo. Its been years now. It should be clear.
Wasn't it written somewhere if something was too good to be true, it probably isn't. This feels like something similar, but reversed. It's unplayable if you take RAW.
Marks comment didn't strike me as he actually knew what the question really was about, or the implications. He just checked the literal text.
Even RAW, the wild druid isn't bad, because the druid isn't bad. But it doesn't make sense indeed.
I feel that the main purpose of the +2 stat bonus if your unarmed is higher is form control.
Back when the CRB first came out, I made a diagram to help me understand how the Wild Shape feats interacted with each other and the various forms. Reading this thread made me want to dust it off and post it in case anyone might find it useful.
Edit: I added Reflexive Transformation from the APG.
I'd certainly consider branching out into one of the other druid "subclases" as wild shape will only take about 1/2 your feats. Arguments can be made for all of them but personally I took Storm Order because I like Tempest Surge. But be aware that (until reasonably high levels) you only get to restore 1 focus point a battle so you pretty much get to cast only 1 focus spell a battle except in the direst circumstances. Which DO come up :-(
It's worth considering getting a familiar and giving it the Familiar Focus master ability. Being able to get an emergency Focus Point recharge even during battle is really nice for a Wild Shape build. Order Explorer (Leaf Order) to get Leshy Familiar is an obvious way to get a familiar, but there are plenty of others.
To play a wild shape druid you need to talk with your GM and make sure your on the same page.
Discuss when you can use the +2 status bonus to hit, if you use your property runes, if you use your weapon specialization, if you can do anything other then the attacks listed on the forms, etc.
If you can use the +2 bonus anytime you wild shape, then 16 STR is going to be needed to hit.
Picking up monk for FoB at 10 is often good.
Dex is always good for reflex as casters have bad saves.
Temp HP from forms is very small so CON is very important along side more of those bad saves.
WIS might be important if you blast, something primal has a lot of, or plan to do counteract for bad effects. If no one in your group can undo bad effects then it will be part of your job, or any thing that might effect an enemy because even with max WIS success rates are usually 50/50ish.
Reactive transformation at 14 can save you from wasting turns on wild shape.
If you blast, overwhelming energy at 10 can help getting through resistances if those tend to be a problem in your game.
Overall don't expect too much from it, and get a good feeling of what your party can do so you know when you want to save spell slots and use two actions (often making the turn a waste if you didn't position properly) to become a martial-light character.