Spellshot - Why is it a Class Archetype and Other Thoughts

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Spellshot Class Archetype
I am struggling to understand this class archetype. While I absolutely love the theme of it, the mechanics… are a little wonky. I really don’t see why it isn’t just a Way.

First, class archetypes normally give you extra options in exchange for dedicating into them and being unable to leave until you take three feats in the archetype.

Spellshot really doesn’t. It gives you access to spellshot feats sure, but since you have to pick it as a Way, you lose access to the other way feats. Basically every other way has feats only it can take too just like spellshot, but doesn’t use a lvl 2 feat and prevent you from multiclassing.

The dedication feat is literally a feat tax. All conjure bullet does is let you avoid paying a copper for a bullet if
A) You are using a basic reload action, which gunslingers try not to do, and
B) Are reloading then firing right away.
So, basically far worse than alchemical ammo which gives you free bullets that work with any reload, and bombs, and is only lvl 1.
You get Int to Class DC, but that is a strict downgrade, as your dex is always going to be higher.

Now, lets look at the specifics of what you get.
Slingers Reload -Thoughtful Reload
Recall knowledge and reload for an action – Not bad, except gunslinger has zero support for Recall Knowledge. Unlike some classes you don’t get extra boosts to get you up to expert or master. So you can probably be decent at one RK skill, out of 5. You are going to get a ton of crit fails. Honestly the same issue magus has, a few points in int alone just don’t make you good at this, Recall Knowledge needs too many skills leveled up and needs both int and wisdom.

Initial Deed – Energy Shot
Not bad early on. Gives you elemental damage you can select for your first three shots to hit a weakness. 1 extra damage is nice early on and hitting an elemental weakness is only useful on about 10% of enemies but can be quite useful on those!
The problem is once you hit mid game, lvl 8 or 9 and get a flaming rune. The damage on this never scales, so once you have a flaming rune this really only becomes beneficial on enemies weak to ice/lightning or acid. Which are quite rare, 3% of enemies or so.

Advanced Deed – Recall Ammunition
This one is good. Very nice, useful reaction. Great ability

Greater Deed – Dispelling Bullet
Hard to rate. Very campaign dependent. If you are in a campaign where enemies don’t self buff, it will get little use. If you are fighting casters and can dispel a lvl 7 haste or something this is excellent.

Now lets look at the Feats
Spellshot Dedication – Literally a feat tax. You save 1 copper every once in awhile when not not using a better reload, and miss out on fake out or risky reload. I am unclear why this exists.

Fulminating Shot – Feat 6
Nice little damage boost. Basically power attack for range but can trigger elemental weaknesses. Power attack works better for ranged than melee too, but haven’t run all the numbers. It has the same problem as Energy shot though, once you get a flaming rune, very few enemies have weaknesses for this to hit.

Call Gun – Feat 8
…Why? A lvl 8 class feat for a cool party trick? Soulforger lets you essentially do the same thing as a lvl 2 feat, and gives you an awesome once a day power.

Phase Bullet – Feat 14
Very nice. Once a day sadly, but against an enemy in armor in particular this has a lot of power for that one shot that you really need. Doesn’t work with other meta strikes though.

Black Powder Embodiment – Feat 18
Hmm, torn on this one. Very cool obviously, but most of the time gunslingers don’t want to get closer to an enemy. Could actually be useful to get clear from one enemy by shooting one farther away though hah. I would take it, sheer cool factor.

In Conclusion - I ask this archetype to be considered for some errata. It is so thematically cool, and has some awesome stuff. But making it a class archetype, as it stands, doesn't fit. I would suggest the following fixes, some or all of them or something else!

A) If it has to be a class archetype, maybe just let you pick a lvl 2 feat for the dedication? Conjure bullet doesn't do anything. And skip the "3 feats to leave" rule, let us archetype other things please. No reason for it here.
B) Energy Shot - Should really scale to 2 damage at lvl 9, 3 at 18 to keep it useful. Or give access to other energy types. Alchemical gunslinger is actually much better at hitting weaknesses as they can access positive damage, good, negative, etc, as well as getting special material bullets.
C) Call Gun - I don't know. Make it do something worth a lvl 8 class feat?

Finally, the Recall Knowledge aspect of the class. This seems to be a recurring theme where a few points in int and a class gets Recall Knowledge feats. Unlike say intimidation or what not, you need need to literally boost 5 skills (Society, Arcana, Occultism, Religion and Nature) to keep your Recall Knowledge game going, as well as getting +skill items for it, and boosting two stats, int and wisdom. For an action that is sometimes great but often useless. I don't know the fix here, but isn't really working making it a part of the class as is. Personally I think a skill feat that lets you use your best int skill for RK of anything in combat, mabe with a -2 penalty or something, might be a thought.

Thank you for humoring my TED talk.

[aobst128]

It's weird. I wish it was standard way with the archetype feats as regular class feats. They could be rare to differentiate the spellshot from the others. Class archetypes typically change something fundamental like a spell list. Spellshot is just a different subclass. I don't think it fits as a class archetype

[breithauptclan]

Making it a class archetype removes it from consideration from the Gunslinger Archetype. That may be the intended purpose.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

breithauptclan wrote:

Making it a class archetype removes it from consideration from the Gunslinger Archetype. That may be the intended purpose.

Maybe. But that could be accomplished by one line that says "This way may not be selected for Multiclass Archetypes"

It just doesn't fundamentally change anything about the class, and the dedication feat is a literal feat tax.

How about this. Change this archetype so you can get out of it after the dedication (not all need the 3 feat rule particularly as this one has so few feats) and change conjure bullet to "Choose fire, acid, electricity or cold. Your next strike with the conjured bullet deals damage of that type."

There, useful now. Like a less action heavy but less powerful and versatile version of alchemical shot.

[aobst128]

I'm not sure why multiclass restriction would be the reason as well. Seems pretty arbitrary.

[breithauptclan]

Well, I am definitely not certain that niche protection is the actual reason for it. I just notice that the only other thing that I can find that you can't pick up from the Gunslinger Archetype is the Advanced Deed that the main Gunslinger class gets at level 9. As well as anything that the main class gets at higher than 10th level, obviously.

Witch is also bad at that though. Only the Cantrip Hex and the mostly useless Phase Familiar are main class exclusive.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

aobst128 wrote:

I'm not sure why multiclass restriction would be the reason as well. Seems pretty arbitrary.

I have a sneaking suspicion that spellshot was originally a lot more involved. Like maybe it changed it to Int to hit, had basic spellcasting, who knows. But maybe page space got cut or time and it was quickly truncated at the result didn't make much sense.

Remember, these were books developed after which the union asked for more time to playtest things hah. Lots of signs that some stuff didn't really have time to be fully worked out in GnG and SoM.

[Squiggit]

There's definitely something odd about it. It's basically just another way, which doesn't make a lot of sense as a unique archetype.

Conjured Bullet also sort of feels like... a thing designed specifically just to give the feat some benefit. It doesn't really add anything.

My only real conclusion is that Paizo clearly thought the effects of Spellshot were overpowered: After all, it takes your second level class feat, blocks you from taking archetypes, and reduces your class DC.

... but looking at its core features I'm kind of struggling to figure out what Paizo was so afraid of too. It's surprisingly vanilla, overall.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Squiggit wrote:

Conjured Bullet also sort of feels like... a thing designed specifically just to give the feat some benefit. It doesn't really add anything.

Yeah, I tried hard to figure out what this was good for, but it literally saves you a copper for a bullet, every once in awhile when you aren't using a better reload and are reloading then firing same turn.

Squiggit wrote:

My only real conclusion is that Paizo clearly thought the effects of Spellshot were overpowered: After all, it takes your second level class feat, blocks you from taking archetypes, and reduces your class DC.

... but looking at its core features I'm kind of struggling to figure out what Paizo was so afraid of too. It's surprisingly vanilla, overall.

This is why I think it originally had more to it and had to get rushed out to meet a deadline or something. It does nothing that amazing. If it were just a way, it would be ok, I don't think it would be as strong as Sniper or Pistolero.

Even the "hitting weakness" thing is weird, since alchemical shot gunslingers are WAY better at it. They access way more damage types than elemental (can also do positive, good, negative, evil, etc) can bypass physical resists entirely by converting their shot into energy, and do persistent damage in their element which is insanely good against creatures weak to something.

What does spellshot really do that is worth a class archetype?

[Themetricsystem]

I'm pretty sure it has more to do with their vision that the Spellshot Way requires more dedication on the part of the Gunslinger than merely leaving it as a 1-off choice and by doing in this manner it prevents them from combining it with future Class Archetypes that are in the pipeline.

That's my guess at least.

[breithauptclan]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

Conjured Bullet also sort of feels like... a thing designed specifically just to give the feat some benefit. It doesn't really add anything.

Yeah, I tried hard to figure out what this was good for, but it literally saves you a copper for a bullet, every once in awhile when you aren't using a better reload and are reloading then firing same turn.

Again, I'm being technical and pedantic. So read it as such.

Conjured Bullet would be somewhat more useful in certain types of campaigns. Ones where ammunition is tracked and limited and you don't always have the time to craft ammunition or go back to a settlement. Ammunition doesn't cost just one copper each. They also cost acquiring time and carrying capacity.

Also, what better reload is Conjured Bullet competing with? The Thoughtful Reload that you were also picking on, or is there something else that Spellshot characters get?

[PossibleCabbage]

breithauptclan wrote:

Making it a class archetype removes it from consideration from the Gunslinger Archetype. That may be the intended purpose.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out how to make a gun inventor work and I got excited about "I can recall knowledge while reloading" with practiced reloads before I realized this was a class archetype and then I was sad.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I'm pretty sure it has more to do with their vision that the Spellshot Way requires dedication on the part of the Gunslinger than merely leaving it as a 1-off choice and by doing in this manner it prevents them from combining it with future Class Archetypes that are in the pipeline.

That's my guess at least.

Entirely possible. Then we just end up in a situation like flexible casting where you have something that doesn't entirely fit in the class archetype framework with regards to dedication feats etc.

Easiest way to fix that seems to be to make the dedication actually good and get rid of the 3 class feat requirement here then.

I like the idea of Conjure Bullet allowing you to make your shot do energy damage.

[Lazarus Dark]

I think excluding it from multiclassing is the most reasonable theory.
However, there is at least a possibility that it is purely thematic. Spellshot makes the Gunslinger magical and they hey wanted to separate it from all the other Ways that are non-magical.

[Temperans]

Lazarus Dark wrote:

I think excluding it from multiclassing is the most reasonable theory.

However, there is at least a possibility that it is purely thematic. Spellshot makes the Gunslinger magical and they hey wanted to separate it from all the other Ways that are non-magical.

*looks at all the weird pseudo magical feats Gunslinger has* Yeah I don't think they cared much about separating magic from non-magic when it came to gunslinger.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

The more I think about it, I think the issue is three things really.

1) As discussed, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a class archetype. There aren't even enough feats to use it in Free Archetype Games

but if Paizo wanted this as a class archetype for either balance or thematic reasons, my two main issues are

2) It should allow you to branch out of the archetype without the three feat limit.

3) The dedication should be of comparable quality to the other excellent lvl 2 feats gunslinger gets (or even just let you pick one) as it is quite literally a dead feat right now.

My other issues with non scaling opening way and lack of RK support are relatively minor compared to that.

[Lazarus Dark]

Temperans wrote:

Lazarus Dark wrote:

I think excluding it from multiclassing is the most reasonable theory.

However, there is at least a possibility that it is purely thematic. Spellshot makes the Gunslinger magical and they hey wanted to separate it from all the other Ways that are non-magical.

*looks at all the weird pseudo magical feats Gunslinger has* Yeah I don't think they cared much about separating magic from non-magic when it came to gunslinger.

okay, but magical is an actual distinction in this game that has certain consequences (like weaknesses and immunities). I'm looking again and while the normal class feats are fantastical and sometimes alchemical, they are not magical. I'm not saying definitely for sure that Spellshot was separated because it's magical, but it's surely not totally out of the question?

[thewastedwalrus]

One very minor thing is that Spellshot changes the Gunslinger Class DC to be Intelligence-based where other similar things like the Ruffian and Scoundrel rogue rackets just change the class's key ability score.

Not sure that distinction justifies the entire class archetype, but it could be a factor.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

thewastedwalrus wrote:

One very minor thing is that Spellshot changes the Gunslinger Class DC to be Intelligence-based where other similar things like the Ruffian and Scoundrel rogue rackets just change the class's key ability score.

Not sure that distinction justifies the entire class archetype, but it could be a factor.

Yeah, that is a weird one. Particularly because it is in every sense a strict downgrade, since a gunslinger still has dex as the key stat not int, so it is basically just saying "This class archetype lowers your class dc"

Now, if it had done something radical like changing the class main stat to Int and made all your ranged shots use int to hit, that would be class archetype worthy.

[Lazarus Dark]

thewastedwalrus wrote:

One very minor thing is that Spellshot changes the Gunslinger Class DC to be Intelligence-based where other similar things like the Ruffian and Scoundrel rogue rackets just change the class's key ability score.

Not sure that distinction justifies the entire class archetype, but it could be a factor.

nah, because Monk does that without a Class Archetype, I don't think that is a factor: "When you first gain a ki spell, decide whether your ki spells are divine spells or occult spells. You become trained in spell attacks and spell DCs of that tradition and your key spellcasting ability is Wisdom."

Its WIS, not INT, but I'm not sure the distinction here is really important?

[Temperans]

Lazarus Dark wrote:

thewastedwalrus wrote:

One very minor thing is that Spellshot changes the Gunslinger Class DC to be Intelligence-based where other similar things like the Ruffian and Scoundrel rogue rackets just change the class's key ability score.

Not sure that distinction justifies the entire class archetype, but it could be a factor.

nah, because Monk does that without a Class Archetype, I don't think that is a factor: "When you first gain a ki spell, decide whether your ki spells are divine spells or occult spells. You become trained in spell attacks and spell DCs of that tradition and your key spellcasting ability is Wisdom."

Its WIS, not INT, but I'm not sure the distinction here is really important?

The difference is Class DC vs Spell DC.

Monk affects spell DC which makes sense due to Monk spells. Spellshot affects class DC which affects other Gunslinger abilities.