So, I found two items that allow one with Leadership to attract double the normal number of followers... neither of which exclude stacking with similar effects. Pretty sure doubling a double is "just" times three in PF1, but I am still okay with that.
Behind door number one we have the Ring of the Ecclesiarch... you get a +5 competence bonus on Diplomacy and Knowledge (religion) checks, and your followers get a +4 morale bonus on Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Behind door number two we have the Suzerain Scepter... you get a +5 competence bonus on Knowledge (nobility) and Diplomacy checks, you can affect up 7 creatures with Good Hope 1/day, and a suzerain scepter radiates a continuous bless effect that affects any cohort, follower, animal companion, familiar, special mount, or creature charmed or summoned by the wielder (but not called creatures or those under dominate or other compulsion effects). Whenever the wielder creates an effect that provides a morale bonus to such creatures (not including the scepter’s bless effect), that bonus increases by 1.
The description for the Leadership feat says you can have a Cohort two (or more) levels lower than yourself, but the table shows a max level 17 regardless of having a 25+ Leadership Score. The Noble Scion prestige class changes the max level of your Cohort, but not you number of followers. So assuming doubling a double is "just" times three, you have your level 17-20 Cohort, 405 first level followers, 39 second level followers, 21 third level followers, 12 fourth level followers, 6 fifth level followers, and 6 sixth level followers... something like 490 people, including yourself, with just one feat and two items.
Is that a lot?
To put it into some perspective, look at the populations of various sizes of towns. Or the crew needed on the largest of sailing ships.
a feat, 2 items, and a high level (20? i didn't follow your math so i assume at least level 19-20.)
but remember while all of them have a helpful attitude to you ,they are NPC (say so right in the leadership feat) = NON player characters. so what you got is a fanatic helper and a fan club. when you are at a really high level. seem ok to me. (as long as you don't expect to play them yourself or decide their build and how they use their own property and wealth). you can order them around, but they are not slaves.
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I'm personally always doubtful of these kind of items simply because I can't help but ask what happens if you lose the item. Do half your followers just up and leave?
I'd also rather a way to get higher level followers rather than just more to me raising the max level from 6 to 10 is worth far more than having four times as many.
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They are your fan club and one high-level cohort, but remember, they still need to eat and have a life (unless they are undead).
Good for a loyal and competent garrison or a small army, a plethora of loyal servants, with some of them very skilled (for NPC), and so on.
But, if you want to have them available full time, the way in which you use them will include some pay, lodging, and appropriate equipment.
The rules in Ultimate Campaign give you some way to do that in a way that profits you or helps your fief (or whatever you have).
Plenty useful in a campaign that lasts years in-game, less in the typical AP that lasts some month.
In the specific case of the scepter, yes, half your followers leave if the scepteris out of your possession for more than a week. I'm not in a habit of losing items essential to my purpose, so I have absolutely no problem relying on them. When is the last time any of your characters lost a ring? That literally never happens. A scepter, maybe, but it's like losing your weapon... you get what you deserve.
I would imagine that the followers would all be NPC classes... I'm really not worried about them, honestly... just going to parade my followers single file past a Nabasu Demon, let it turn my followers into Ghouls with its Death-Stealing Gaze.
I just think the concept is silly overall... me, and my ~500 followers... there's no actual point or purpose other than having Golarian's longest conga line. Lol.
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For leadership scores higher than 26:
here
Hit leadership level 40 with the ring and scepter. Now that’s a conga line.
When is the last time any of your characters lost a ring?.The third age of Middle Earth.
That's hilarious... I stand corrected.
For leadership scores higher than 26:
hereHit leadership level 40 with the ring and scepter. Now that’s a conga line.
And now, I know. They say knowing is half the battle... violence is the other half.
. . . remember while all of them have a helpful attitude to you ,they are NPC (say so right in the leadership feat) = NON player characters. so what you got is a fanatic helper and a fan club. when you are at a really high level. seem ok to me. (as long as you don't expect to play them yourself or decide their build and how they use their own property and wealth). you can order them around, but they are not slaves.
You make a fair point, but it also makes me think, even if you're limiting it to NPC classes, if these are the 'right' people, you've might have just set yourself up as the man in charge.
Consider most places have NPCs between levels one to six. If a lot of your followers have at least a level in noble and if that class also does indicate a modicum of social standing, then maybe you do have enough friends to swing votes in an oligarchy or a republic. Maybe you wind up the monarch... or, even better, a shadow monarch so people are aiming the poisoned wine, arrows, and pitchforks in the wrong direction.
That's on top of whatever twenty levels in a class you have. If you're a rogue 20, it's a really cool avenue to explore for a game if you want. For casters, it's probably just a fun distraction when they're not researching things in their demiplane.
A druid with the same setup might just be a faux Christopher Robin with his own awakened 100 acre wood.
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. . . remember while all of them have a helpful attitude to you ,they are NPC (say so right in the leadership feat) = NON player characters. so what you got is a fanatic helper and a fan club. when you are at a really high level. seem ok to me. (as long as you don't expect to play them yourself or decide their build and how they use their own property and wealth). you can order them around, but they are not slaves.You make a fair point, but it also makes me think, even if you're limiting it to NPC classes, if these are the 'right' people, you've might have just set yourself up as the man in charge.
Consider most places have NPCs between levels one to six. If a lot of your followers have at least a level in noble and if that class also does indicate a modicum of social standing, then maybe you do have enough friends to swing votes in an oligarchy or a republic. Maybe you wind up the monarch... or, even better, a shadow monarch so people are aiming the poisoned wine, arrows, and pitchforks in the wrong direction.
That's on top of whatever twenty levels in a class you have. If you're a rogue 20, it's a really cool avenue to explore for a game if you want. For casters, it's probably just a fun distraction when they're not researching things in their demiplane.
A druid with the same setup might just be a faux Christopher Robin with his own awakened 100 acre wood.
Sadly the process is usually. Powerful competent person founds an empire/kingdom/other, fast forward a couple of generations and corrupt incompetents are in charge like much of the world today ripe for the new crop of powerful competent to overthrow them and found a new empire/kingdom/other. We really need more immortals in the first crop to maintain their power and control. Well as long as they avoid falling into the disintrested/aloof/bored and wanting to be free trap.
The forbidden kingdom is actually a good example of disintrested powerful mage and corrupt deputy. The celestial empire visist the kingdom "all well?", "Yes your imperial gloriousness.", "Good.". Drinks his immortal wine and leaves with his wife never to be seen again in the film. Meanwhile deputy enslaves, rules with an iron fist and double crosses in dishonarable combat till overthrown.
. . . Powerful competent person founds an empire/kingdom/other, fast forward a couple of generations and corrupt incompetents are in charge like much of the world today ripe for the new crop of powerful competent to overthrow them and found a new empire/kingdom/other. We really need more immortals in the first crop to maintain their power and control. . .
It's also a good argument for public education and rules that allow for upward mobility, so that talent and merit can easily be recognized and have a positive outlet. Then again, those can easily be perverted as well so... six in one hand...
. . . The forbidden kingdom is actually a good example of disintrested powerful mage and corrupt deputy. . . .
...then it's time to go Save a Wrongfully Imprisoned SUN WUKONG!
I need to go watch that one again, because I don't remember it too well. I do remember Jackie Chan's and Jet Li's characters arguing over martial arts making me laugh, though...
. . . remember while all of them have a helpful attitude to you ,they are NPC (say so right in the leadership feat) = NON player characters. so what you got is a fanatic helper and a fan club. when you are at a really high level. seem ok to me. (as long as you don't expect to play them yourself or decide their build and how they use their own property and wealth). you can order them around, but they are not slaves.You make a fair point, but it also makes me think, even if you're limiting it to NPC classes, if these are the 'right' people, you've might have just set yourself up as the man in charge.
Consider most places have NPCs between levels one to six. If a lot of your followers have at least a level in noble and if that class also does indicate a modicum of social standing, then maybe you do have enough friends to swing votes in an oligarchy or a republic. Maybe you wind up the monarch... or, even better, a shadow monarch so people are aiming the poisoned wine, arrows, and pitchforks in the wrong direction.
That's on top of whatever twenty levels in a class you have. If you're a rogue 20, it's a really cool avenue to explore for a game if you want. For casters, it's probably just a fun distraction when they're not researching things in their demiplane.
A druid with the same setup might just be a faux Christopher Robin with his own awakened 100 acre wood.
1st - I never said anything a about npc classes, that was in Mark Hoover 330's post after mine, all i said is that they are npc. they can be npc fighters, npc wizards or even npc chamber maids.
So the player doesn't get to control them (which include decide how they vote), decide their build (like what class they have) or decide what to do with their wealth and assets. which by the way also include any political assets.
they can ask a friendly noble npc to help them with a problem, but changing the laws or making them kinged is a bit stressful even for some1 who would like to help you. Unless you can convince them why they should do so (beside 'i want to be king and im your friend so you have to help me') they might think the best way to help you is to get you in a mental facility before the king find and have you killed for trying to usurp his throne. ('what are you doing! i should be king! why won't you listen to me? you have to obey my every command, i spent a feat and gold for it' - clearly a Napoleon complex)
2nd - even if for some reason they ARE limited to npc classes, as gm characters he is well in his right to make them all experts on knowledge(local) -they are a hardcore fan club. anyone not following the latest gossip about you is kicked out.
'can you help me fight this dragon?'
'KYAAA! i can't believe you are talking to me! i can't help with the dragon but i bet you would look sooo cool fighting it, oh i can't wait to tell my friends! Would you sign my stalk-book?' (like a spell book but has fine detail on every aspect of your character's daily activities. shower use time-table and toilet samples included)
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In my games I usually use this as a role-play opportunity. the more helpful npc are out there the more the party need to invest in actually learning their names in hope to enlist their help.
As of for the cohort, i let the player open a job hunting notice. listing abilities or aspects they search for in their prospecting follower. the more limited and detailed their demands are the harder it is to find a suitable helper.
if they ask for a human paladin they can usually find one (unless they are evil and do not make any attempt in hiding it). if they look for a goblin cavalier\investigator with deft catcher feat, the rich parents trait and that he would have spend most of his gold to buy a wand of wonder. they will have to sit and wait till the right candidate appear. it might take a millennia or two...
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I agree with zza ni, the followers can have any class. The majority will have NPCs class, especially those that have lower levels, while the higher leveled can be a mix of PCs and NPCs classes.
As an example, a squire can be a mix of cavalier and aristocrat (which seems appropriate for a 3rd-4th son of a landed noble).
A contestable a bard/expert and so on.
They have their goal and life, so they aren't at your beck and call, but at the same time, they are your friends and allies and certainly biased in your favor.
If you want to form a political faction and influence the government, they will be almost certainly in favor and help you do that.
If the GM has the time and the campaign allows it, it is a good idea to detail why the NPCs have become your followers. The events in most AP aren't particularly visible or noticeable, so getting the followers benefits from giving a reason why they come.
In one AP the monk in my group defeated the champion of wrath and ended with a bunch of figthers/wizards followers even without taking leadership.
Not really useful at level 15+, more a drain in resources, with him relocating them and teaching how to live in modern Golarion times, but an interesting power base for after the end of the AP.
1st - I never said anything a about npc classes, that was in Mark Hoover 330's post after mine, all i said is that they are npc. they can be npc fighters, npc wizards or even npc chamber maids.
I never said you did. I was, sort of, attempting to address two things at once. I know it was Mark who mentioned limiting leadership npcs to npc classes. I should have broken down my statement a little bit more. I was trying to say, even if you limit it to npc classes, as Mark does and seems to suggest, you can still manage a lot.
I don't limit leadership candidates to just npc classes in my games. One game I was particularly fond of had a player with an aasimar bard. I gave her an awakened cat psion (psychokinesis discipline) as her big follower. It was amusing and worked thematically with what we had going on.
So the player doesn't get to control them (which include decide how they vote), decide their build (like what class they have) or decide what to do with their wealth and assets. which by the way also include any political assets.
Yes and no. The player recruits them. So s/he can reject characters until s/he gets something closer to what they want. There are also social skills like Bluff and Diplomacy to Suggest a Course of Action, so that you can manipulate them without them realizing it. There's also higher level spells that can manage some mental chicanery which can translate into direct, if temporary, control. I'm not saying it's always possible or even easy, but if a player really plans out things for a character, they can manage a lot. Now, if a player just takes what they get, and they play the character straight without a lot of guile, you're 100% correct... but that level of correct drops a little depending on what's available.
But that's just been my experience.
they can ask a friendly noble npc to help them with a problem, but changing the laws or making them kinged is a bit stressful even for some1 who would like to help you. Unless you can convince them why they should do so (beside 'i want to be king and im your friend so you have to help me') they might think the best way to help you is to get you in a mental facility before the king find and have you killed for trying to usurp his throne. ('what are you doing! i should be king! why won't you listen to me? you have to obey my every command, i spent a feat and gold for it' - clearly a Napoleon complex)
Again, you're not wrong, but it depends on how the player approaches their character. A high charisma character with lots of social skills could conceivably have several followers dancing to his tune without their even being aware of it. A caster might do it all through spells and a crystal ball depending on the approach. And then there's the wise barbarian who impresses others with his determination and prowess and maybe they just beg Conan to rule... again, it varies.
And yes, sometimes it could just as easily fail Spectacularly.
2nd - even if for some reason they ARE limited to npc classes, as gm characters he is well in his right to make them all experts on knowledge(local) -they are a hardcore fan club. anyone not following the latest gossip about you is kicked out.
'can you help me fight this dragon?'
'KYAAA! i can't believe you are talking to me! i can't help with the dragon but i bet you would look sooo cool fighting it, oh i can't wait to tell my friends! Would you sign my stalk-book?' (like a spell book but has fine detail on every aspect of your character's daily activities. shower use time-table and toilet samples included)
In the game world, on average, you're usually running into npc classes, unless of course your DM has made some broad, unilateral decisions about the make up of the populous/world. If a DM has made all of your potential followers a fan club, that's only (or should be) only a part of their skill set. They should have skills aside from being a stalker... unless those ranks in perception, stealth, survival (for tracking), and acrobatics or climb (for getting to just the right window sill for spying) make them a professional stalker and you just happen to be their favorite hobby.
In my games I usually use this as a role-play opportunity. the more helpful npc are out there the more the party need to invest in actually learning their names in hope to enlist their help.
And I agree with this wholeheartedly. In a perfect world, the player and GM will talk out what the player wants, and the storyteller provides options, and such options should happen organically over the course of the game. You want a potion crafter? Well, you rescued a dwarven brewer and you find out that he has a knack for using alchemy to improve or speed the brewing process. You also find out that the gnome who you've had a couple of pints with down at the pub has been having issues with the paying the rogues' guild protection fees and might have to move out of town... 'What do you do, Fingold?' 'Oh, I make vials of antitoxin and occasionally sell a Pass without Trace potion to Lord Lazenbreeze so that he can sneak out easier to cheat on his wife... It's her family that has the money.' O_o *cough cough*... 'Hey, Fingold. I've got some adventuring buddies. Would you like us to talk to the rogues for you?'
It doesn't always work out, but the more connections you can make in game for the characters, the more the players tend to feel immersed or invested in the setting.
As of for the cohort, i let the player open a job hunting notice. listing abilities or aspects they search for in their prospecting follower. the more limited and detailed their demands are the harder it is to find a suitable helper.
if they ask for a human paladin they can usually find one (unless they are evil and do not make any attempt in hiding it). if they look for a goblin cavalier\investigator with deft catcher feat, the rich parents trait and that he would have spend most of his gold to buy a wand of wonder. they will have to sit and wait till the right candidate appear. it might take a millennia or two...
Again, you make a good point. I'd say that if they can find someone close, then they could retrain some of changes they'd like in the follower, especially if they talk them into it. But just like I've said up post, it's all about how they do it and it's best when it happens organically.
The best part about followers is, that after 14 levels of Cult Master Mesmerist you can send them to their deaths without it affecting your Leadership score... not that most people have any interest in necesssrily murdering mass amounts of their followers, but this IS a plus for those of us with certain ambitions.
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The best part about followers is, that after 14 levels of Cult Master Mesmerist you can send them to their deaths without it affecting your Leadership score... not that most people have any interest in necesssrily murdering mass amounts of their followers, but this IS a plus for those of us with certain ambitions.
Not my way of doing it, but leadership is very flexible and the character ambitions matter.
My characters are the kinds of guys that will do almost everything to keep the followers alive and make them better.Yours have a use for the dead followers.
Is there a better use of ~400 first level NPC-class followers than human Adepts with Scribe Scroll and Cooperative Crafting?
I mean, BESIDES having a Nabasu turn them into Ghouls?
I admit I tend to give my NPC's PC levels simply because of bad experiences with murder hobo's. This begger is a level 3 rogue and can call in guild mates ranging up to lvl 9.
For sure. And, they are more useful... especially to low level "characters"... as most NPC classes completely lack class features or bonus feats.
Your followers actually never advance, so there is no use trying to achieve anything that is not self-contained within the available levels.
. . . Your followers actually never advance, so there is no use trying to achieve anything that is not self-contained within the available levels.
Though it's not really the way it's supposed to work, sometimes I treat some npc the players have been using rather heavily, like a rogue that's been tailing someone for them or doing the rounds at taverns finding information them, or a crafter that's been making a lot of scrolls or potions for them, as if they leveled when the leadership score increases, and then just bring in a new npc at the lower level they occupied... as if the npc learned enough doing a job to get better at the job. If they haven't been paying special attention to any particular npc, then they bring in a new higher level recruit. It just feels a little more realistic to me.
Then again, I've never really had to deal with this kind of leadership score in actual play. It would quickly devolve into a soap opera or an overly long slice of life story if a pc with such an advanced leadership score tried to spend time with every one of their minions.
Nobody has ever taken the actual Leadership feat at my table. Players have started organizations and guilds and kingdoms without it.
The Rogue started an alchemy shop as a cover for his assassins' guild. He told me he wanted some Alchemists, or something similar... there was never even an actual character established, he just had an alchemy shop that he could task to make copious amounts of Acid Flasks and Alchemists' Fire. He then used this supply of simple alchemical splash weapons to reload the party's flying carpet "bomb compartment"... a portable hole they would dump from the flying carpet to literally "carpet-bomb" their enemies.
The Warpriest had an entire organization acting as a moral compass for the kingdom... the type of organization that will remove a king if they become a tyrant. His organization existed to protect the interests of the kingdom, even if it means killing a king. He set up this organization when he was currently king, as a safegaurd against himself. Later, he simply handed the crown to someone else, and took up a different role. But he still maintained his organization. Still had access to everything such an organization would have to offer.
Just found the Wicked Leader trait that allows your Cohort to be one level lower than yourself, instead of two levels... that is neat.
Wicked Leader
Source Champions of Corruption pg. 12
Category Basic (Social)
You gain a +1 trait bonus on Charisma checks against evil creatures. If you select the Leadership feat or the Vile Leadership feat (see page 14) at any point when you meet the prerequisites for that feat, you can recruit a cohort who is up to 1 level lower than you (instead of the normal requirement that your cohort must be 2 or more levels lower than you are) as long as your cohort is evil.
I know they don't get followers, but how cool are the mini-Leadership feats, though?
I'm being completely serious... not only do they offer a lot of flavor, which really is the biggest selling point of Leadership to begin with, but the Cohort they offer is restricted to certain classes. Even if your GM does not allow you to design your own Cohort, you will at least get one of these known classes (rather than whatever random class the GM decides for your Cohort). Plus, each feat comes with a little perk, which may or may not be something one could take advantage of... even though your Cohort has to be 3 levels below your own. Lots of fun to be had with these, either way.
Groom must be a Bard, Fighter, or Ranger.
Lightbearer must be an Alchemist, Fighter, or Rogue.
Page must be a Bard, Cavalier, or Paladin.
Squire must be a class with proficiency in martial weapons.
Talden Knight must be a halfling commoner, expert, or warrior with the Taldan Squire feat.
Torchbearer must be an Alchemist, Bard, Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue.
Weapon Bearer must a Cavalier, Fighter, or Gunslinger.
VM, here's something fun to think about: a Familiar, as a non-animal with above animal intelligence, can take any feat it can physically use. Some improved familiars, or even a couple non-improved ones, have a means of communication with other PCs/NPCs. Retraining is a thing technically accessible, by RAW, by Familiars. Finally, the rules on Familiars state that the familiar uses it's master's/mistress' class level to determine its level for level-dependent effects, like the level requirements in these feats.
So... say you've got a Wizard 5, not anything special just Wizard 5, with a Thrush familiar. That bird COULD, I'm guessing with GM's approval, retrain their standard feat for, say, Torchbearer and now has a 2nd level Bard following them around as a Cohort. When the character hits Wizard 8, this feat automatically converts to full Leadership and, depending on the Familiar's Leadership score at this point, the Thrush may have a Bard 6 and a couple L1 Followers as well.
Good times.
i would love to see that retraining session.
'now, show me how you order your servant"
"Poly wants a cracker!"
"good!, once more!"
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VM, here's something fun to think about: a Familiar, as a non-animal with above animal intelligence, can take any feat it can physically use. Some improved familiars, or even a couple non-improved ones, have a means of communication with other PCs/NPCs. Retraining is a thing technically accessible, by RAW, by Familiars. Finally, the rules on Familiars state that the familiar uses it's master's/mistress' class level to determine its level for level-dependent effects, like the level requirements in these feats.
So... say you've got a Wizard 5, not anything special just Wizard 5, with a Thrush familiar. That bird COULD, I'm guessing with GM's approval, retrain their standard feat for, say, Torchbearer and now has a 2nd level Bard following them around as a Cohort. When the character hits Wizard 8, this feat automatically converts to full Leadership and, depending on the Familiar's Leadership score at this point, the Thrush may have a Bard 6 and a couple L1 Followers as well.
Good times.
i would love to see that retraining session.
'now, show me how you order your servant"
"Poly wants a cracker!"
"good!, once more!"
Remdinds me of a Terry Pratchett book where Polly wanted a continent.
You could give your Familiar the Torchbearer/Leadership feat without any shenanigans whatsoever as a Beast-Bonded Witch or Soul Binder Wizard. Give said Familiar the Ambassador arcetype to raise its Charisma, and thus its Leadership score. Give your Familiar Additional Traits/Wicked Leader. Give your Familiar a Ring of the Ecclesiarch and the Suzerain Scepter. Lol.
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You could give your Familiar the Torchbearer/Leadership feat without any shenanigans whatsoever as a Beast-Bonded Witch or Soul Binder Wizard. Give said Familiar the Ambassador arcetype to raise its Charisma, and thus its Leadership score. Give your Familiar Additional Traits/Wicked Leader. Give your Familiar a Ring of the Ecclesiarch and the Suzerain Scepter. Lol.
\\
I wonder now if you could claim to be your familiar's cohort?
You could give your Familiar the Torchbearer/Leadership feat without any shenanigans whatsoever as a Beast-Bonded Witch or Soul Binder Wizard. Give said Familiar the Ambassador arcetype to raise its Charisma, and thus its Leadership score. Give your Familiar Additional Traits/Wicked Leader. Give your Familiar a Ring of the Ecclesiarch and the Suzerain Scepter. Lol.\\
I wonder now if you could claim to be your familiar's cohort?
With adequate ranks in Bluff, one can claim anything.
Give your Familiar the Page or Weapon Bearer feat, and have them take a Cavalier for a Cohort... give their Cavalier Cohort the Undersized Mount feat... use your Familiar as their Mount... it's a weird Cohort rides its Master relationship, but don't ask questions.