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Hi!
So, lately I have been thinking a lot about all those small, circumstantial bonus characters get (mainly from feats). You know, bonuses such as +1 to Athletics checks made to climb, +2 to resist the negative effects of cold weather, +1 when using Perception to discern when someone is lying to you, and so on.
These bonuses have been bugging me since Pathfinder 1E, for the following reasons:
- Players tend do forget about them, and so do I. Even when the circumstance to use them arises, they are so rarely used that no one remembers.
- Players feel overwhelmed by having to remember them, especially when using higher level characters. As an example, I have been playing Sundered Waves recently, and although we had a really huge blast, my players (who have previous experience with Pathfinder 1 and 5E) felt a bit discouraged by the sheer number of small things they had to take in and keep in mind while we played.
- They can be easily given at GM's discretion. When I know a character is grown in Irrisen, I will give him a +2 bonus to saving throws against the effects of cold weather anyway.
This post is not aimed at criticizing those bonuses, however. Since they are in the system, I would like to know why do you think they are useful, what do they add to the game experience in your view, and, most importantly, if you can share any tips on how to manage them, helping the players to remember them without feeling overwhelmed.
Thank you in advance!
From my experience:
Players tend to remember them when you ask the question: You fail your save, are you sure you haven't forgotten a +1 somewhere?
In VTT, you can add them to the skill/save description (at least on Roll20) so you don't forget them.
Some of them are quite obvious, like the Ifrit resistance to fire.
Others are common, like the dwarf or goblin heritage resistance to fire so at some point you get used to them (but it takes time and system mastery).
But overall, we tend to forget about them a lot of the time. I agree it's a bit sad, but at the same time, I have never found they were that many. I hardly have more than one of them on a given character.
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In PF2, you have only three categories of bonuses: status, circumstance and item. Bonuses of the same type don't stack, so I'd start with making sure that you know which of these three types each bonus is.
This is very unlike PF1, which had 435 types of bonuses, and several of them (esp the "untyped") stacked with each other, so you had to track far more stuff to make sure what's your actual bonus.
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In PF2, you have only three categories of bonuses: status, circumstance and item. Bonuses of the same type don't stack, so I'd start with making sure that you know which of these three types each bonus is.
This is very unlike PF1, which had 435 types of bonuses, and several of them (esp the "untyped") stacked with each other, so you had to track far more stuff to make sure what's your actual bonus.
Yes, most of them are circumstance bonuses, but usually they do not apply to the same check. I.e., you have a +2 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks made to climb and a +1 circumstance bonus to Deceit checks made to Lie.
@Superbidi: I wish we too had so few of them. Usually skill feats are the main source of them, and you get a lot of skills feats as you progress through the levels. We use Foundry, and to be honest, one of the worst things is that they cannot be (currently) automated, so you need to remember them.
But this conversation sparked an idea. I think that a specific script might help: for example, when you roll Athletics and you have a +1 bonus made to Climb, the macro asks you if you are using Athletics to climb everytime you make an Athletic check, and if yes, it automatically adds the bonus. I should bring this discussion over to the Foundry community, they might be able to help!
Curious,is there a way to add conditional bonus to the results?
You roll Athletic with a +1 to climb and the macro gives something like:
"roll 25 Athletics, 26 to climb"
As far as I know, there is no such a thing yet. But it might be something that the community could work toward implementing. I was thinking about some sort of message that pops-out everytime you roll a skill check or saving throw for which you have selected the "conditional bonus query" option.
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@Superbidi: I wish we too had so few of them. Usually skill feats are the main source of them, and you get a lot of skills feats as you progress through the levels. We use Foundry, and to be honest, one of the worst things is that they cannot be (currently) automated, so you need to remember them.
From my experience, the main issue doesn't come from skill feats as the player very often know about them as they choose them wisely. I see issues with Heritages, mostly because a lot of ancestries have uninspiring Heritages so you take one but quickly forget about the bonus. And Magic Items, mostly because a lot of magic items come with a "second effect" that is not very interesting as the player is interested by the main effect, like Boots of Bounding bonus to jump.
For magic items, as much as I think these bonuses could be removed without affecting the game, it's true that these bonuses make every magic item a bit unique.
I get what those traits aim to do (add characterization), but in my opinion they don't do it efficiently, since it is hard to keep track of them and are frequently forgotten.
Anyway, I think you're right. Magic items especially have a lot of circumstantial (not circumstance) bonuses.
I would argue, however, that skill feats also apply, because not always the players develop their characters from level 1. Sometimes they use higher level pregens, or create a character at a higher level. And that's when circumstantial bonuses from magic items, ancestry feats, skill feats, and so on, tend to overwhelm the players.
Because 2nd edition has been set up to minimize the size of individual bonus, and because there are a very limited number of bonus types (to be able to stack) I mainly would think of this in the context of "Would a +2 make a difference on the outcome of this roll?"
Because a +2 is likely at most what you would have. And in the case of most rolls, it probably wont make a difference. If it would make a difference, then maybe review you character more carefully for bonuses you might have forgotten.
Of course, a player who really wanted to make sure could make a separate sheet with all those bonuses for quick and easy reference.
But this conversation sparked an idea. I think that a specific script might help: for example, when you roll Athletics and you have a +1 bonus made to Climb, the macro asks you if you are using Athletics to climb everytime you make an Athletic check, and if yes, it automatically adds the bonus. I should bring this discussion over to the Foundry community, they might be able to help!
From a software developer: my first instinct is that this is going to be a very difficult thing to do. Not to discourage you from proposing it - just trying to temper your expectations.
My first attempt to design this would be to have checkboxes for each variation. But there would be 825 of them, and that would be very difficult to fit on the screen in any meaningful way. Possibly better if it was filtered down to just the skill being used. But still, it would end up relegated to 'banner ad' levels of user attention rather quickly.
Next attempt is to have the roll setup process go and check the character's options and only include the ones that they actually have and might possibly be relevant to this roll. Rolling Athletics -> check character for bonuses to Athletics check -> give checkbox to add that bonus to this particular Athletics roll. This is better on the user, but more complicated. It may also be unreliable. It may only pick up certain categories - such as skill feats, ancestry feats, or other feats - but not other categories such as invested equipment.
Of course, a player who really wanted to make sure could make a separate sheet with all those bonuses for quick and easy reference.
That is what I normally do for my players and characters. As well as a custom character summary sheet that has enough whitespace to write in notes next to various checks for the more permanent things.
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On Roll20 I just write it in the Notes section of the relevant skill, save, or check. That way it shows up every time.
IRL I simply write it in parenthesis next to the modifier for the relevant skill, save, or check.
Hard to forget and easy to manage when you see it every time you roll.
The Foundry VTT Pathfinder 2e game system already has this functionality, and for much more than just climbing with Athletics.
You can drag effects from specific items/spells/etc onto characters, then the minor bonuses are automatically applied should you roll the specific action. So a character who drank a spiderfoot brew would not see a bonus to generic Athletics checks but would have the bonus applied should they roll an Athletics check from the Climb action in the compendium of Actions.
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Personally, for any situational type bonuses on PCs and NPCs, I make a totally separate document segment or page that lists all of them with detailed notes regarding when they apply listed line-by-line.
Keeping them noted in the places where the base bonus is listed leads to too much clutter for my own taste and if I have them all in one place I know I can always check that spot to see if the current situation allows them to be applied whenever needed.
Because a +2 is likely at most what you would have. And in the case of most rolls, it probably wont make a difference. If it would make a difference, then maybe review you character more carefully for bonuses you might have forgotten.
This is very good advice Claxon, thank you!
The Foundry VTT Pathfinder 2e game system already has this functionality, and for much more than just climbing with Athletics.
I didn't know about this. Thank you for bringing it up. I will look into it!
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Thank you everyone for your support. Thanks to your suggestions and tips, I think I may finally have an arsenal of solutions to my problem. I will test them! Thanks again.
Because a +2 is likely at most what you would have. And in the case of most rolls, it probably wont make a difference. If it would make a difference, then maybe review you character more carefully for bonuses you might have forgotten.This is very good advice Claxon, thank you!
The Foundry VTT Pathfinder 2e game system already has this functionality, and for much more than just climbing with Athletics.I didn't know about this. Thank you for bringing it up. I will look into it!
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Thank you everyone for your support. Thanks to your suggestions and tips, I think I may finally have an arsenal of solutions to my problem. I will test them! Thanks again.
Glad someone else has pointed that out because it was bugging me. Foundry has the best system to track this, you just have to use it properly.
All feats have a rule element to have a toggle that sprouts in the correct roll for that bonus.
If they don't, all skills can have custom modifiers added on the modifiers button on them.
Pretty much all spell effects, feat effects, feature effects are in the compendium with respective names and can be dragged and dropped on actor or set in macro bar to activate/deactivate.
The foundry team has really done an amazing job with these.
I didn't know you could use the specific actions to roll like that-- pretty dope. I had figured out you could apply effects, and that you could tweak your roll preferences to always give you an option to apply modifiers first. My witch frequently uses status bonuses from Discern Secrets and various forms of circumstance bonus. I've apply the Discern Secrets effect to my character, which means whenever I make hit Perception or a skill that can Recall Knowledge, Foundry gives me a one click prompt to turn that bonus on. I've been faking the circumstance bonuses with Pursue a Lead to give me a similar prompt.