Campaign rules updates?

[Fletch]

I haven't been paying a lot of attention to Pathfinder 2e until now, but now that I'm looking at it, I'm curious if there's been any statements about updating some of the 1e campaign rules.

Like, I know there's a 2e version of Kingmaker coming, do we know if that's simply using/ updating the old kingdom and mass combat rules, or if those are getting a larger overhaul like the PF rules themselves did?

I'm also interested in hearing about any announcements or rumors about things like the technology guide and ship combat in case anyone wants to adapt Iron Gods or Skull & Shackles.

Thanks, all.

[keftiu]

Kingmaker 2e has rules for what the AP relates to - but they’ve been very clear about those rules being pretty tailored, and lacking rules for things (like, say, desert environments) not directly related.

No word yet on either a Technology book or a sailing one - we have most of 2022’s releases sketched out already (a year heavy on spooky stuff, weirdness, and undead), with store pages up for all of them.

[Salamileg]

keftiu wrote:

Kingmaker 2e has rules for what the AP relates to - but they’ve been very clear about those rules being pretty tailored, and lacking rules for things (like, say, desert environments) not directly related.

No word yet on either a Technology book or a sailing one - we have most of 2022’s releases sketched out already (a year heavy on spooky stuff, weirdness, and undead), with store pages up for all of them.

We don't have any info for the second half of the year for any of the main book lines, so it's hard to say if the rest of the year will continue the spooky trend.

[KaiBlob1]

keftiu wrote:

No word yet on either a Technology book or a sailing one - we have most of 2022’s releases sketched out already (a year heavy on spooky stuff, weirdness, and undead), with store pages up for all of them.

assuming they continue their goal of 4 lost omens and 3 rulebooks per year, we still have 3 more lost omens and 1 more rulebook to hear about for 2022. One of those Lost Omens is probably Impossible Lands, but thats still only 4/7 major books of the year that we know about.

[keftiu]

I’d love to be wrong on a 2e Technology book, believe me.

[GM_3826]

So, Paizo generally lines up the release of Lost Omens books and rulebooks with the publication of APs and adventures, but the latter half of 2022's adventures all have to do with the former half's setting and rules content. There's a similar pattern with Outlaws of Alkenstar being published mid-2022 while Guns & Gears was released in October 2021. So, what I'm getting at is that books on the Lost Omens setting and content updates are generally a greater indication of what's coming next then adventures, so while it's pretty much impossible to say what exactly will be published, it's likely that it is something that doesn't line up with the content from the rest of the year. A high tech book is unlikely because Paizo still has to sell Starfinder, but possible. A book on naval combat or marine life is more plausible. So don't get your hopes up, but it could absolutely happen, at least in my opinion.

[keftiu]

Assuming the all-but-inevitable Impossible Lands book, that’s 3/10 Inner Sea meta-regions accounted for (it + Mwangi and Absalom), so there’s plenty of room to start guessing. I’m also hoping and praying we finally see a book for some part of Arcadia - Fallen Razatlan, please! - sometime soon.

We’ve also seen an Arcane, a steampunk Martial, and an Occult book, so Divine and Primal are due up for their equivalents.

[GM_3826]

keftiu wrote:

We’ve also seen an Arcane, a steampunk Martial, and an Occult book, so Divine and Primal are due up for their equivalents.

This... isn't accurate at all. Secrets of Magic is a book on all forms of magic and isn't focused specifically on arcane magic. One of the two new classes is an any list caster, the spells in that book are of all magic traditions, the archetypes aren't specifically linked to arcane magic and some of them are entirely new forms of magic, the book starts with essays on how each spell tradition functions, and the book also includes many magic items. Dark Archive meanwhile isn't an occult book, the designers stated that it's a book that focuses on paranormal themes, but without an emphasis on any particular tradition. One section of the book is going to be on apocryphal divine magic, there will be a new mystery for oracles, and most notably the thaumaturge uses a little bit of every magic tradition. It's a shame because occult really needed its identity fleshed out, but it seems the intent is for the book to be to PF2e magic what Innistrad was to the colors in Magic: the Gathering, throwing a bit of horror into everything. Time will tell if that bears fruit, but Paizo seems to be avoiding doing books on any specific magic tradition in favor of more a diverse selection of content, and the closest thing (Gods & Magic) was a Lost Omens title.

[The Raven Black]

Also Martial is not a Tradition of magic, though I think many would love it to be :-)

[Fletch]

Good insights, guys, thanks.

I take it there hasn't been any chatter from the developers or off-the-record rumors that might point to revisiting some of the mini-games of the past edition.

I remember many of these subsystems, like the caravan rules from Jade Regent, weren't well-received so I was hoping there was some interest in revisiting them. And while the kingdom building rules were pretty solid, I was wondering if the team adapting Kingmaker had made any statements about how they were using any "lessons learned" in the rewrite of the system for PF2e.

[Cintra Bristol]

I believe James Jacobs posted something in the Kingmaker thread about the kingdom building rules being completely rebuilt for the 2e version, to eliminate the overly-gamey stat-based phenomenon of towns containing nothing but cemeteries and garbage dumps. If I recall correctly, a kingdom will have a level and kingdom improvements will be added like class feats as the kingdom's level advances; as the party levels up (or possibly as certain campaign goals are reached), the kingdom levels up too and gains feats/features. It sounded very promising.

[The Raven Black]

Ninjaed :-)

It was a question on the thread of the PF2 kingmaker blogpost (in Paizo / General Discussion), to which JJ gave the following answers :

James Jacobs wrote:

Vanulf Wulfson wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Papa-DRB wrote:

Was anything done with the Kingdom Management sub-system?

I DM'd the original AP with my home group, and have played the Owlcat CRPG. To tell the truth, I am hoping that that the Kingdom Management was "updated" to what is in the CRPG.

If no, I will either do something myself, or hope that one of the 3rd party folks does it.

thanks for any answers.

It's a new game edition, so the Kingdom Management system was rewritten from the ground up from its 1st edition version. It's role remains closer to how it worked in the 1st edition game, since the way it worked for the video game (as a series of narrative encounters with choose-your-own-adventure style choices and a VERY complex series of calculations and time-management steps better handled behind the scenes by a computer than by people playing a tabletop game) isn't really appropriate for the table.

The 2nd edition version of these rules instead presents the kingdom in a similar way to a character, sort of like how the Hell's Rebels rebellion worked, or how a starship works in Pathifnder, but taking full advantage of the new edition's rules.

So it's a completely new sub system and not just a rehash of the Ultimate Campaign rules?

It's new. In 1st edition, your kingdom was a new subsystem of rules based on a new mechanic: build points. That new mechanic did the work, but it was also something that players could abuse and that was really complicated. You know when you hear stories that players were building towns filled with nothing but graveyards and dumps that something wasn't working right!

In 2nd edition, your kingdom uses the character building rules. If you know how to build a character, you know how to build a kingdom already. Instead of an ancestry, a kingdom has a charter. Instead of a background, it has a type of government. And it has only one class: Kingdom. Beyond that it gets skills and feats and levels up with its own XP parallel to the party; the kingdom can never be higher level than your group, so that helps to manage the growth of the kingdom through the campaign as well.

[Perpdepog]

Fletch wrote:

Good insights, guys, thanks.

I take it there hasn't been any chatter from the developers or off-the-record rumors that might point to revisiting some of the mini-games of the past edition.

I remember many of these subsystems, like the caravan rules from Jade Regent, weren't well-received so I was hoping there was some interest in revisiting them. And while the kingdom building rules were pretty solid, I was wondering if the team adapting Kingmaker had made any statements about how they were using any "lessons learned" in the rewrite of the system for PF2e.

One thing I know they did do was genericize many of the subsystems to the Victory Points model in the GMG. Here is the relevant chapter, if you want to take a gander. There are a few examples of ways Victory Points can be used in different contexts, like chases, intrigue, heists, and research.

The Raven Black wrote:

Also Martial is not a Tradition of magic, though I think many would love it to be :-)

That's the label I'd slap on a tradition of magic if it focused on the material and spirit essences, personally.

[Vardoc Bloodstone]

I think James Jacob’s description of the 2e kingdom building rules for Kingmaker is brilliant and portable to a lot of other subsystems, such as the circus mechanic from Extinction Curse or the caravan rules from Green Regent. I’m very interested to see how it works out.

I would love to see an Ultimate Campaign style book that would bring in more rules around mass combat, naval combat, political intrigue, siege warfare, resource management, etc. I feel like a lot of the building blocks are out there, but guidelines to implement them better would be helpful.

[Fletch]

Perpdepog wrote:

One thing I know they did do was genericize many of the subsystems to the Victory Points model in the GMG.

I don't think this is exactly what I'd be looking for in terms of mass combat or kingdom building. Tracking how the PCs' actions build up over time to succeed (or not) at something is one thing. Building something that, while it can be influenced by the PCs and affect them in return, otherwise exists and acts as a separate entity warrants its own subsystem.

James Jacobs wrote:

The 2nd edition version of these rules instead presents the kingdom in a similar way to a character, sort of like how the Hell's Rebels rebellion worked, or how a starship works in Pathifnder, but taking full advantage of the new edition's rules.

I don't actually have any experience with either of those subsystems, but I'm not really down with the idea of kingdoms or armies or fleets or pirate havens just growing by default because the PCs advance.

I like my subsystems to play as sort of minigames where the PCs do get to influence it and be affected by it, but is actually a playable game.

Like, while Kingmaker had a "kingdom in the background" section for those who didn't want to bean count, but otherwise there was a whole side-game of choosing buildings and setting policies and raising armies that was quite a bit of fun. All it really needed was a throttle on the easier-to-abuse aspects.

Conversely, Skull & Shackles treated the whole ship and piracy element as a side thought. I would loved to have seen more granulity in loot and crew morale and its effects on boarding combat and supply management for sailing out and looking for ships to pirate. Don't get me started on the fleet combat rules.

Anyways, it just sounds like they're going in the opposite direction from what I'd hoped, is what I'm trying to say.

[keftiu]

I personally welcome what sounds like a much simpler system.

[AnimatedPaper]

Fletch wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The 2nd edition version of these rules instead presents the kingdom in a similar way to a character, sort of like how the Hell's Rebels rebellion worked, or how a starship works in Pathifnder, but taking full advantage of the new edition's rules.

I don't actually have any experience with either of those subsystems, but I'm not really down with the idea of kingdoms or armies or fleets or pirate havens just growing by default because the PCs advance.

I’m not sure you do advance by default. They’ve actually used a variation of these organization rules in an APs already; in Strength of Thousands you have to actively level your standing in your respective branch as a secondary leveling path to your character class. Your standing level is capped by character level, not tied directly to it.

This kingdom rules seem a bit more complex than the standing was. I’m sort of imagining “class feats” that your kingdom can select, such as feats that unlock specific downtime or exploration activities driven by new allies or buildings. 25-30 would be plenty for an alternate system like this, but it can get more robust from there.