I've written up the following house rules to make the summoner operate in a way I prefer for my home games. This should make them the undisputed best at using summoned creatures in the game as well as smooth over some of the issues with the eidolon and using self-only buffs. Let me know if you see any issues that might allow an excessive mechanical advantage or an imbalance.
Break Connection (Level 1): Reaction. Trigger Your eidolon suffers an attack that takes it below 0 hit points or kills it. You sever the connection between you and your eidolon remaining conscious with 1 hit point. This ability does not prevent you from dropping below 1 hit point or falling unconscious if both you and the eidolon are struck for damage at the same time such as being hit by the same area of effect attack.
Eidolon: You and the eidolon do not share a multiple attack penalty or a reaction. You and your eidolon each have their own reaction with the usual limitations on reactions. Remove all rules language that indicate a summoner shares its multiple attack penalty and reaction with the eidolon.
Link Spells and Cantrips: You can cast a spell or cantrip that is normally self-only on your eidolon. The spell moves through the link’s connection and manifests from the eidolon up to the same range you can exert control over the eidolon. If you cast the spell affecting the eidolon, you must use your actions (including reactions and free actions) to activate any abilities such as a shield block with a shield spell. If the eidolon casts the spell, then the eidolon must use its reaction or free action in accordance with the ability.
This ability is in addition to the normal benefits provided by Link Spells.
Master Spellcaster: Add: Your proficiency ranks for spell attack rolls and spell DCs for spells with the summoned and incarnate trait of your eidolon's tradition increase to legendary.
Summoner Feats
Master Summoner (Summoner 6): Add: Any summons cast using your Summoner spell slots gain a +2 status bonus to attack rolls.
Legendary Summoner (Summoner 20): Add: You can summon creatures 1 level higher than the highest level your spells allow so a 10th level slot can be used to summon a Level 16 creature rather than a level 15 creature. A level 9 spell can be used to summon a level 14 creature rather than level 13.
Master Spellcaster: Add: Your proficiency ranks for spell attack rolls and spell DCs for spells with the summoned and incarnate trait of your eidolon's tradition increase to legendary.
It makes sense for the few Incarnate spells available, but what does this do for summoned creatures? As far as I know, those still make their attacks and saves based on the creature level that is summoned. They don't use the summoner's proficiency for anything to begin with.
Edit: Oh, and the rest of it looks perfectly reasonable to me.
Master Spellcaster: Add: Your proficiency ranks for spell attack rolls and spell DCs for spells with the summoned and incarnate trait of your eidolon's tradition increase to legendary.It makes sense for the few Incarnate spells available, but what does this do for summoned creatures? As far as I know, those still make their attacks and saves based on the creature level that is summoned. They don't use the summoner's proficiency for anything to begin with.
Edit: Oh, and the rest of it looks perfectly reasonable to me.
For our campaigns, we use spell attack roll for the attack roll of summoned creatures.
Normally, nothing.
Question. Would giving master spellcaster the +2 to attack rolls for summons/incarnate then making Master Summoner and Legendary Summoner give 1 more summon spell be broken? Legendary summons would still give +1 level.
Maybe Legendary Summoner not 3 cost a 9th level spell if 3 10th level summon spells is too much.
I am just curious since you have more experience at high level.
Probably not imbalance much. Even with 3 slots that would just be a few fights a day. I'm going to start at the point I set and modify from there.
I was thinking of giving a summon focus spell, but if I do it might replace the eidolon. It would be nice to have at least one extra summoned creature a fight. I want the summoner to be heavily focused on using summons as its primary way of attacking. Not just boosting and modifying an eidolon.
Overall, you made few changes, so nothing that should imbalance the game. I'd still force the Summoner to have line of sight and effect to the Eidolon to benefit from your Link spells modification (to avoid weird shenanigans).
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Overall nothing seems too powerful.
I really am not a huge fan of making the Summoner the best at summon spells. I think having the homebrewed master summoner feat would be nice for other classes to have access to if you really wanted buffed summons.
The Summoner is mostly just about the Eidolon in PF2. Summoning really has nothing to do with the class, other than a few feats and the name being kind of deceptive.
I was hoping Secrets of Magic was going to add a real summon focus archetype. It would have been cool if you could have had options to makes summons more fun for every class.
I was thinking of giving a summon focus spell, but if I do it might replace the eidolon. It would be nice to have at least one extra summoned creature a fight. I want the summoner to be heavily focused on using summons as its primary way of attacking. Not just boosting and modifying an eidolon.
I am not sure if this would fit Summoner great, since almost every feat is about the eidolon. I would say having a class based around a summon focus spell would have been really cool. I think it would have to be limited to once per combat though, otherwise when characters could cast 3 focus spells per combat would be a little too strong.
I know PF1/PF2 Summoner had a lot to do with the Eidolon but I admit I would love a class who starts every combat just summoning a monster with a focus spell. Kind of like a more utility based animal companion.
Break Connection: mostly a feelsbad fix. It opens up eidolon suicide rush tactics, though. In particular, if you can keep the summoenr safe you can summon an eidolon, let them nuke it down, remanifest it, and send it into the fray again... as many times as you like. At level 19, playing eggshell eidolon games in that way is potentially even reasonably action-efficient (though keeping the summoner out of the line of fire gets trickier with higher-level enemies).
Side question: are you putting anything in to fix the bit where Ostentatious Arrival on Manifest Eidolon automatically makes you nuke yourself? You're trying to push the "summoner that summons" archetype here, and Ostentatious Arrival is definitely part of that... but any fix would potentially make eggshell Eidolon tactics even more effective.
Eidolon: not having eidolon share MAP is fine. each having their own reaction, though, is a pretty significant buff to the action economy. It's not necessarily unwarranted, given your objective set, but I immediately dialed in on this one as a pretty major boost.
Link Spells: I see two potential areas of concern here. The first is that there might be self-only spells that the summoner would have access to that are intended to grant significant combat advantages to make up the deficit in melee that most casters would have, and applying them to the eidolon might be a bit much. The second would be the way it lets you leverage the "each side gets its own reaction" thing to effectively give the eidolon two different "I'm in the thick of the melee" reactions.
Various summon boosts: Given that you were intending to give them a boost anyway, this is probably fine... for the Summoner's base spell slots. They don't have all that many to spend, so feats that juice up the ones they do have aren't as much of an issue, especially given how much Summoner feats are worth in general. The real trick that I see comes with alternate spell slot sources - tossing summons out of a staff or a scroll or whatnot. A summoner that leans heavily into that side fo things might get to be a bit excessive. Admittedly, Master Summoner already covers that, and the Master Spellcaster change isn't giving them anything that any other caster doesn't get. Legendary Summoner should perhaps include a "cast using your Summoner spell slots" requirement as well.
Overall, you made few changes, so nothing that should imbalance the game. I'd still force the Summoner to have line of sight and effect to the Eidolon to benefit from your Link spells modification (to avoid weird shenanigans).
Summoner has an always-available 1-action Share Senses though. And spells coming from the Eidolon would still have all the normal restrictions about line of effect for spell targeting. So it would let the Summoner stay safe while the Eidolon is effectively casting spells from its location, but I don't see that as opening up much in the way of shenanigans.
But maybe there are some specific examples that I am not thinking of.
On the other hand, Familiar Conduit does require line of effect to the familiar.
But Sorcerer's Spell Relay doesn't.
Break Connection: mostly a feelsbad fix. It opens up eidolon suicide rush tactics, though. In particular, if you can keep the summoenr safe you can summon an eidolon, let them nuke it down, remanifest it, and send it into the fray again... as many times as you like. At level 19, playing eggshell eidolon games in that way is potentially even reasonably action-efficient (though keeping the summoner out of the line of fire gets trickier with higher-level enemies).
The suicide rush is something I will keep an eye on. I can see how it might be abused, at the same time 3 actions to summon and just 1 action to do something seems to already limit this option.
Side question: are you putting anything in to fix the bit where Ostentatious Arrival on Manifest Eidolon automatically makes you nuke yourself? You're trying to push the "summoner that summons" archetype here, and Ostentatious Arrival is definitely part of that... but any fix would potentially make eggshell Eidolon tactics even more effective.
I have not looked a this feat closely yet. I will if someone takes it. It was strangely designed that it harms the summoner.
Link Spells: I see two potential areas of concern here. The first is that there might be self-only spells that the summoner would have access to that are intended to grant significant combat advantages to make up the deficit in melee that most casters would have, and applying them to the eidolon might be a bit much. The second would be the way it lets you leverage the "each side gets its own reaction" thing to effectively give the eidolon two different "I'm in the thick of the melee" reactions.
Do they have a lot of melee reactions that the summoner can get? Attack of Opportunity? So it would be a way for a summoner to get two AoOs if they chose to be in melee. I figure the opportunity cost of focusing on melee or a weapon attack would offset any benefits.
I was think of spells this might effect. Most personal cast spells don't provide a huge benefit. I was mostly thinking of shield and see invis. What are the other major ones?
Various summon boosts: Given that you were intending to give them a boost anyway, this is probably fine... for the Summoner's base spell slots. They don't have all that many to spend, so feats that juice up the ones they do have aren't as much of an issue, especially given how much Summoner feats are worth in general. The real trick that I see comes with alternate spell slot sources - tossing summons out of a staff or a scroll or whatnot. A...
I may incorporate that. It seems real hard to get a lvl 10 casting item. Very expensive. If it is a staff, it would be one extra casting a day. I would be very surprised if anyone bought a lvl 10 scroll. But maybe this would make it at least somewhat worth it.
Do they have a lot of melee reactions that the summoner can get? Attack of Opportunity? So it would be a way for a summoner to get two AoOs if they chose to be in melee. I figure the opportunity cost of focusing on melee or a weapon attack would offset any benefits.
I was think of spells this might effect. Most personal cast spells don't provide a huge benefit. I was mostly thinking of shield and see invis. What are the other major ones?
Blood Vendetta is what comes to mind first for me.
It might be best if giving each of the Summoner and Eidolon their own reactions that they can't trigger reactions based on things done to the other creature. So the Summoner can cast Shield on the Eidolon, but not use the shield block reaction when the Eidolon gets attacked (if the Eidolon also casts shield on itself it could shield block with its own shield and still have the circumstance bonus from the Summoner's shield). The point being that the Summoner can't cast Blood Vendetta from inside a fortress when someone lands a slashing/piercing attack on the Eidolon.
Well, with the way it is written currently and with the example of using the Summoner's reaction to activate Shield Block on the Eidolon it means that the Summoner could also use Blood Vendetta when the Eidolon is attacked. So while the Eidolon doesn't get two AoO actions going off, it can get one AoO and Blood Vendetta from the same attack. That seems to mea at least to be in line with what Deriven was asking about.
The summoner can't use link spells on spells that target another creature. Only self-only cast spells like see invis or shield.
The reaction would only be usable by the summoner. The summoner would have to be hit to cast blood vendetta. The eidolon would have to have blood vendetta on its spell list.
Good feedback. That's what I like from posters. Try to break the game with my house rules, see if screws up the the balance.
I have the type of players who pick up a game system and try to make the sickest, most game breaking combination they can. So far they haven't been able to do it in PF2 even with my house rules.
A staff of divination probably allows you to interweave multiple castings of true strike for your eidolon:
@ Act together true strike -> eidolon strike
@ true strike
@ eidolon strikeThough I haven't run the numbers, I'd hazard a guess that a primal polymorph summoner using ___ form + tandem movement + AoO and eidolon's opportunity combined with no shared MAP probably dishes out high damage, as both summoner and eidolon can take their first two MAP strikes both with martial tier damage.
I would have to look at this. So true strike which you can use on the eidolon to allow it to hit, attack twice, and boost. So first attack gets true strike bonus, second strike -4 or 5 with boost. I think that's an acceptable use of true strike.
The eidolon operates with a d8 or d6 main weapon inherently. True strike will not allow the casting of a two action spell with it.
I will watch to see if True Strike causes any issues.
The summoner can't use link spells on spells that target another creature. Only self-only cast spells like see invis or shield.
The reaction would only be usable by the summoner. The summoner would have to be hit to cast blood vendetta. The eidolon would have to have blood vendetta on its spell list.
Hmm... OK.
How about Rebounding Barrier and Spell Turning then? The spell itself is self-only, but the reaction option that it provides affects other creatures.
There are also some other spells that become open to shenanigans (at earlier levels at least) if the Summoner can use them through the Eidolon. Mirror's Misfortune and Dimension Door come to mind. But it may be the intent of your houserules to allow such things to work. The Eidolon can usually get plenty of mobility options on its own, so Dimension Door probably isn't much of a problem. Not sure about Mirror's Misfortune. The free step that it gives is still a net loss of actions since the spell takes two actions to cast. But with the Eidolon being up in people's faces it is more likely that the enemies will attack the mirror image than if it was the summoner in the back ranks that duplicated itself.
The actual way to use true strike with this rule is:
@ Eidolon strike
@ Act together True Strike
@ Eidolon strikeThat way the second strike has no penalties and is even more likely to hit than the first. Although to be fair its no different than:
@ Haste strike
@ True Strike
@ Strike
That's half your slots for the day to cast a 1st level spell. Though this would be easier with a staff. I'd still allow it though. Eidolon doesn't hit that hard, hits even less hard without boost.
The summoner can't use link spells on spells that target another creature. Only self-only cast spells like see invis or shield.
The reaction would only be usable by the summoner. The summoner would have to be hit to cast blood vendetta. The eidolon would have to have blood vendetta on its spell list.
Hmm... OK.
How about Rebounding Barrier and Spell Turning then? The spell itself is self-only, but the reaction option that it provides affects other creatures.
There are also some other spells that become open to shenanigans (at earlier levels at least) if the Summoner can use them through the Eidolon. Mirror's Misfortune and Dimension Door come to mind. But it may be the intent of your houserules to allow such things to work. The Eidolon can usually get plenty of mobility options on its own, so Dimension Door probably isn't much of a problem. Not sure about Mirror's Misfortune. The free step that it gives is still a net loss of actions since the spell takes two actions to cast. But with the Eidolon being up in people's faces it is more likely that the enemies will attack the mirror image than if it was the summoner in the back ranks that duplicated itself.
All those are acceptable uses of spell power or items. They require counteract checks, work once or for a few attacks, and as is the case with Pathfinder 2 have a few hoops to jump through to get them to work involving saves against a class DC that will max out at Master.
PF2 is a super hard game to break.
Link Spells: I see two potential areas of concern here. The first is that there might be self-only spells that the summoner would have access to that are intended to grant significant combat advantages to make up the deficit in melee that most casters would have, and applying them to the eidolon might be a bit much. The second would be the way it lets you leverage the "each side gets its own reaction" thing to effectively give the eidolon two different "I'm in the thick of the melee" reactions.Do they have a lot of melee reactions that the summoner can get? Attack of Opportunity? So it would be a way for a summoner to get two AoOs if they chose to be in melee. I figure the opportunity cost of focusing on melee or a weapon attack would offset any benefits.
I was think of spells this might effect. Most personal cast spells don't provide a huge benefit. I was mostly thinking of shield and see invis. What are the other major ones?
The melee reactions I was thinking about aren't the ones that would affect the summoner - honestly, a summoner that's going to walk into melee can use all the help they can get. I was more thinking about spells that consumed reactions (shield, for example) that would let the summoner hang back, but effectively spend two different reactions as the eidolon (one from the eidolon directly, and one as the caster fo a spell that took a reaction).
As for personal cast spells... I honestly don't know. I also don't know what those reaction spells would be. "Encyclopedic knowledge of PF2 spells" is really not a strength for me. I mostly just know that such things have existed in other editions, and thought it was at least an issue worth considering (preferably by someone who knew the spell lists better than I do).
One that is interesting, I suppose, is the three-action heal. Having that "harm all undead, heal all nearby allies" fire off in the thick of the fight has some real advantages over trying to get your summoner up close enough to hit all the targets you'd want to hit. If you've increased eidolon size, it even covers more area.
The melee reactions I was thinking about aren't the ones that would affect the summoner - honestly, a summoner that's going to walk into melee can use all the help they can get. I was more thinking about spells that consumed reactions (shield, for example) that would let the summoner hang back, but effectively spend two different reactions as the eidolon (one from the eidolon directly, and one as the caster fo a spell that took a reaction).
Like a Summoner with 50 scrolls of Rebounding Barrier.
So... I just ran into one thing that's a really interesting implication of saying that the two don't share MAP. Form spells. When a summoner uses a form spell, the eidolon is still there. Now, normally that's not that big a deal, because MAP means that you can't really leverage both all that effectively. If they have separate MAP counters, though...
It even gives something of an answer to the "I don't have enough spells" issue, especially if you run Free Archetype. Two feats into Druid Archetype will get you Wild Shape. My understandign is that Wild Shape combat is not abysmal. I'm not entirely certain, but it might be a better way to handle the "fight beside your Eidolon" plan overall.
It also makes Tandem Strike completely superfluous.
The melee reactions I was thinking about aren't the ones that would affect the summoner - honestly, a summoner that's going to walk into melee can use all the help they can get. I was more thinking about spells that consumed reactions (shield, for example) that would let the summoner hang back, but effectively spend two different reactions as the eidolon (one from the eidolon directly, and one as the caster fo a spell that took a reaction).Like a Summoner with 50 scrolls of Rebounding Barrier.
I bet that still wouldn't break the game, though it would be pretty annoying to cast it that often. I doubt my players would do it, but it would be possible. Then again it's possible for a single class caster to do this as well. Have you see anyone playing a wizard or sorcerer carry 50 such scrolls and use it endlessly?
So... I just ran into one thing that's a really interesting implication of saying that the two don't share MAP. Form spells. When a summoner uses a form spell, the eidolon is still there. Now, normally that's not that big a deal, because MAP means that you can't really leverage both all that effectively. If they have separate MAP counters, though...
It even gives something of an answer to the "I don't have enough spells" issue, especially if you run Free Archetype. Two feats into Druid Archetype will get you Wild Shape. My understandign is that Wild Shape combat is not abysmal. I'm not entirely certain, but it might be a better way to handle the "fight beside your Eidolon" plan overall.
It also makes Tandem Strike completely superfluous.
I wanted to make Tandem Strike superfluous.
The battle form is something I took into account. But battle form spells usually do less damage. And I kind of like the idea of them as well. Turn into a dragon to fight next to your dragon is pretty cool. I would like that to be an effective combination.
I'll track it when it comes online and see how it does compared to a regular martials. For one fourth of the character's daily slots, should be a good use of spell power.
They can't really get any of the good druid wild shapes because they are too high level and the druid archetype only allows up to level 10 feats at lvl 20. And the summoner archetype provides none of the benefits of the summoner like link spells or any action economy advantage. You just get the shared hit point pool with no real advantage from having an eidolon. I'm still not even sure why they put the summoner archetype in the game as it's a terrible archetype for combat.
Have you see anyone playing a wizard or sorcerer carry 50 such scrolls and use it endlessly?
No, because that is just as annoying to play as it is to deal with as a GM.
They can't really get any of the good druid wild shapes because they are too high level and the druid archetype only allows up to level 10 feats at lvl 20.
Good meaning the higher spell level battle form spells like Dragon Shape that gives Dragon Form? Because the Wild Shape Druid spell is a focus spell and auto-heightens. So Wild Shape casting Animal Form will still be a max-level version of Animal Form even from the Druid archetype. I'm sure you know that already. I'm just making sure I understand what you mean.
Have you see anyone playing a wizard or sorcerer carry 50 such scrolls and use it endlessly?No, because that is just as annoying to play as it is to deal with as a GM.
They can't really get any of the good druid wild shapes because they are too high level and the druid archetype only allows up to level 10 feats at lvl 20.Good meaning the higher spell level battle form spells like Dragon Shape that gives Dragon Form? Because the Wild Shape Druid spell is a focus spell and auto-heightens. So Wild Shape casting Animal Form will still be a max-level version of Animal Form even from the Druid archetype. I'm sure you know that already. I'm just making sure I understand what you mean.
They can get animal. Ferocious Shape at level 16. Insect Shape at level 12. Soaring Shape at level 16. Plant or Elemental Shape at level 20. That's the best they could do with the archetype. Ferocious shape would be probably the most damage. I'd be ok if they did that because they couldn't boost or cast while in those shapes.
Out of curiosity, have you looked at the numbers for polymorph form spells? They're strong enough to match a martial without damage boosts (ranger, monk, champion, non-sneak attack rogue).
Yes. Some of them are quite good at the level you can cast them. Then they drop off as you move farther away from that level unless you build for them.
Their damage is pretty nice as well.
I still would not worry about them too much. A martial has a lot of other abilities to match or exceed what a wild shape caster can do.
Even now my fighter and champion are way more brutal than a wild shape character. Their reaction abilities far exceed what a wild shape caster can do. Hell, fighter and champion are hands down two of the best martials in the game. Fighter is just becoming brutal with reaction attacks. I'm starting to see what Exocist was talking about.
I'm not too worried about a summoner shapechanging and attacking. He can't boost while shape changed. He still shares actions with the summoner and risks being in melee with a single hit point pool and low saves. I think the trade off is acceptable.
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Thought of something with 0 MAP penalty that might be an issue.
If you take 16 STR and your Eidolon has 18, then you both focus on Athletics. Once you get tandem movement you can pretty much be the best manuever character.
Stay next to your eidolin with a whip. Then just spam trip and attacks once they are tripped. If necessary move away with tandem movement and repeat.
Originally I didnt think removing MAP from Summoner would be that impactful but after thinking about it I think it could be a problem.
Of course if you have attack of oppurtunities in your party everyone knows how powerful trip would be. This would make Monk flurry/mixed manuevers pale in comparison other than the monk being more tanky.
I'm not super worried about maneuvers. They're a pretty boring character option I can beat by giving enemies a Kip Up feat or ability to stand without provoking.
I know trip can be hugely effective. But it can also be beaten if it becomes an issue.
I'm not super worried about maneuvers. They're a pretty boring character option I can beat by giving enemies a Kip Up feat or ability to stand without provoking.
I know trip can be hugely effective. But it can also be beaten if it becomes an issue.
grab+trip manages to avoid the kip-up answer pretty effectively, and with the plant eidolon in particular, you're well-positioned can do the "trip and grab and stay out of reach" trick. Also, "I can just give everyone Kip Up is a weaksauce answer as DM. "You optimized too well, so I'm going to make the world immune to your trick." Monsters pretty much don't get Kip Up, and there's a reason for that.
That said, the summoner maneuverbeast might not be that terrible. It's just something to watch out for.
I'm not super worried about maneuvers. They're a pretty boring character option I can beat by giving enemies a Kip Up feat or ability to stand without provoking.
I know trip can be hugely effective. But it can also be beaten if it becomes an issue.
grab+trip manages to avoid the kip-up answer pretty effectively, and with the plant eidolon in particular, you're well-positioned can do the "trip and grab and stay out of reach" trick. Also, "I can just give everyone Kip Up is a weaksauce answer as DM. "You optimized too well, so I'm going to make the world immune to your trick." Monsters pretty much don't get Kip Up, and there's a reason for that.
That said, the summoner maneuverbeast might not be that terrible. It's just something to watch out for.
I don't view it that way myself. If a tactic is extremely common and effective, then I view it as the world adapting to counter that move.
As far as I'm concerned anything that works with a high degree of success and far too advantageous would be adapted too, especially if a moderately easy to obtain skill feat for a common skill provided the means to counter. If I tripped the players a bunch and used that tactic on them, then the players would all build up Acrobatics and take Kip Up. Same applies to the enemies.
I'm very much a DM that believes in the "balance of power" and "mutually assured destruction." Players use a tactic over and over again, I will use it on them over and over again.
That being said I don't view maneuvers as an issue. I don't think they are too easy to do. They only do low damage even in builds meant to take advantage of them. And at best they set up other characters rather than making the character doing them powerful. If you have to do a trip and a grab together to make the tactic effective, then you just used two actions to do almost no damage just to set other people up.
I've found maneuvers to be a decent quality option, but not particularly overpowered against the most dangerous enemies. They can be nasty against mooks with a PC with a lot of reactions like a fighter, but most classes cannot take advantage of trip like a fighter.
On a side note I think it's pretty stupid you can even trip a gargantuan dragon or a huge giant as easy you can, giants especially since it goes against a weak reflex save. So the argument monsters shouldn't have Kip Up is very weak to me since I think players for a very low skill feat cost can trip hugely strong and stable creatures far too easily as well as Paizo making flying able to be disrupted by trip. Trip is as far too powerful an option and far too easy to use by far too many PCs. It looks really stupid in my mind's eye how easy it is to trip giants and other immense creatures.