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These tattered and ragged garments extend the duration of a shifter’s bestial transformations, allowing her to shift into her aspects’ minor forms for 5 additional minutes per day. Each set of bestial rags is also tied to a specific aspect, typically being made of the hide of that creature and embossed with crude pictograms of it, allowing a shifter to assume that aspect’s minor and major form, as appropriate for her level. If the shifter already has the ability to shift into that form, that aspect’s major form functions as if she were 2 levels higher.
Tied to a specific aspect means you have to choose one aspect, such as bat, bull. Fey apect is a kind of Aspect and Fey Shape is the major form, right?
The issue focus on the second ability: the major form 2 levels higher.
You could argue that Fey Aspect counts for allowing tying Bestial Rags to it, but it does not have a minor form nor major form, meaning the item wouldn't do anything. Since the item is intended to be keyed tom one specific animal, using it with a Wild Shape variation that lets you chose upon use doesn't make sense intend-wise, either.
Feyform Shifter still selects regular aspects at 1st* and 9th/14th/20th level, and the item does work with them.
*) The text says Fey Aspect "alters and replaces all improvements to shifter aspect", which means RAW you still select the first animal aspect, and Fey Shape does not remove the ability to adopt your animal aspect's form (and even retains the hour duration of unmodified Wild Shape if you do so). Since Fey Aspect grants concealment and a fly speed (but isn't a polymorph effect), the archetype is actually a huge upgrade over vanilla Shifter if used this way.
I'm honestly not sure whether that's intended or not. Or how much of it is intended - I think that you can definitely turn into an animal at 9th, but it's unclear whether "At 9th level, a feyform shifter gains a second shifter aspect" refers to a first animal aspect gained at 1st, or whether that is supposed to refer to the fey aspect. The two archetypes look like they had the same writer, and there are very notable differences (in not saying it replaces the first aspect, for instance). The Greater Fey Shifter and Final Aspect abilities seem to seperate the regular aspects from fey aspect, which indicates that Fey Shifter does the same, and thus does refer to an animal aspect gained at 1st.
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Interesting, I haven`t thought of this. You think Fey Aspect (Su) and Fey Shape (Su) is not turning to minor and major form.
Em, Feyform Shifter's Final Aspect (Su) : At 20th level, a feyform shifter gains access to a fourth aspect. When she uses shifter aspect, she can assume the minor forms of all her aspects in addition to her fey aspect, and she can use her major and minor forms at will.
It indicates there is major form for Feyform Shifter. If Fey Shape is not, I can't find any other major form for Feyform Shifter. Can I take this for evdience?
Interesting, I haven`t thought of this. You think Fey Aspect (Su) and Fey Shape (Su) is not turning to minor and major form.
The words "minor" and "major" do not appear in the description of Fey Aspect or Fey Shape. It's as simple as that.
It indicates there is major form for Feyform Shifter. If Fey Shape is not, I can't find any other major form for Feyform Shifter.
No, it doesn't, it simply lets you use the minor and major forms you get from the regular aspects that you select at 1st, 9th, 14th, and 20th level at will. A Feyform Shifter can use Wild Shape to either turn into a fey (freely chosen at time of use), or into the major form of a previously selected shifter aspect. Just because the former is gained at the same time you (or other shifters) gain the latter, doesn't mean they're mechanically equal.
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What's "the major form of a previously selected shifter aspect" means?
I don't think Feyform Shifter can get normal major form at 9th, 14th and 20th level. At 9th level, a feyform shifter gains a normal animal aspect, but he can just assume the minor form of the normal aspect alongside her fey aspect. It has nothing to do with major form of the normal aspect. So I think there is no major form other than Fey Shape (Su).
The words "minor" and "major" do not appear in the description of Fey Aspect or Fey Shape.
The statement is vague and that's why I raised the question organially. However, a friend told me, Fey Aspect just altersShifter Aspect, not replaces. It does not change the organial "minor form". And the same with Fey Shape to Wild Shape. I think it make sense.
I don't think Feyform Shifter can get normal major form at 9th, 14th and 20th level.
Every aspect selected always comes with both a minor and a major form.
The statement is vague and that's why I raised the question organially. However, a friend told me, Fey Aspect just altersShifter Aspect, not replaces. It does not change the organial "minor form". And the same with Fey Shape to Wild Shape. I think it make sense.
Well, Fey Aspect actually says both, which makes no sense. But it also says it only 'alters and replaces' improvements to shifter aspect, and thus RAW doesn't touch the first one either way. And yes, Fey Shape alters, not replaces, Wild Shape, and says "a feyform shifter can use her wild shape ability to become a fey creature" - this is a pure addition to what Wild Shape does.
I agree with Derklord.
The Feyform Shifter isn't transforming into a "major form" when they polymorph into fey since it lacks the correct language. It's simply an alternative use of your pool of Wild Shape uses, like how Paladins can spend two uses of Lay on Hands to channel energy.
And as written, the Feyform Shifter can indeed transform into the major form of whatever aspects they choose at lv 9, 14, and 20. "Fey Shape" doesn't replace your normal Wild Shape, it just alters it by adding another use of the ability. Which means, if you have an aspect, you can still spend uses of Wild Shape to transform into the major forms just as a normal shifter can. And at level 9 you explicitly do gain a shifter aspect.
"This alters wild shape."
"At 9th level, a feyform shifter gains a second shifter aspect, chosen from the animal aspects normally available to shifters."
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That said, I think maybe kinda potentially that the designer just fell into the trap of reinventing the wheel when writing the archetype and didn't mean to make Fey Aspect/Fey Shape separate from minor/major form. I wouldn't allow Bestial Rags to be keyed to fey form, though. Because the item is pretty clearly meant to be tied to a single creature and not the entire selection of fey creatures.
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Let's go back to the orginal Shifter.
The Shifter can have only one major form, cause the latter aspects(at 9th, 14th and 20th-level) only grant him addition minor forms. He can assume 5 minor forms to top at the same time at 20th. No extra major form.
See the Chimeric Aspect (Su), Greater Chimeric Aspect (Su), Final Aspect (Su) of Shifter
The Feyform Shifter's 9th, 14th and 20th abilitis modify the above three, so they only grant minor forms of the chosen aspects, right?
btw,
Because the item is pretty clearly meant to be tied to a single creature and not the entire selection of fey creatures.
That's why I hesitated at first. It is weird.
Every aspect selected always comes with both a minor and a major form.It's too far from what I think.
"All shifter aspects have a minor form and a major form. The minor form grants a shifter a few of the animal’s physical traits, while the major aspect is the form she takes on when she uses wild shape to fully transform into an animal." UW pg. 28
The Shifter can have only one major form, cause the latter aspects(at 9th, 14th and 20th-level) only grant him addition minor forms.
No. You can only be in one major form at a time, but you have access to as many major forms (and as many minor forms) as you have aspects.
That's why I hesitated at first. It is weird.
It gets clear when you accept the reality of how the class works. You don't select forms on levelup, you select aspects. Period. Then when you activate the Shifter Aspect ability, you chose one aspect of yours, and take on that aspect's minor form (for a Feyform Shifter, prior to 9th level, RAW you have to chose between a minor form, and what Fey Aspect grants). Likewise when you use Wild Shape, you chose one aspect of yours, and take on that aspect's major form (for Feyform Shifter, you can instead chose to polymorph into a fey).
Let's go back to the orginal Shifter.
The Shifter can have only one major form, cause the latter aspects(at 9th, 14th and 20th-level) only grant him addition minor forms. He can assume 5 minor forms to top at the same time at 20th. No extra major form.
See the Chimeric Aspect (Su), Greater Chimeric Aspect (Su), Final Aspect (Su) of ShifterThe Feyform Shifter's 9th, 14th and 20th abilitis modify the above three, so they only grant minor forms of the chosen aspects, right?
You've misunderstood the original shifter. A normal shifter (no archetype) starts out with one aspect, and gets one additional aspect at level 5, 10, 15, and finally 20. They can use the minor and major forms of all those aspects as they like.
So a level 5 shifter with the Mouse and Tiger aspects could use their Wild Shape to either turn into a tiny Mouse or a large Tiger. Look closely at the Shifter's Wild Shape ability, the first sentence.
"At 4th level, a shifter gains the ability to turn herself into the major form of one of her aspects and back again."
one of her aspects
When you activate Wild Shape you choose one of your available Aspects and transform into the Major Form of it. You are not restricted to the first Aspect you took at level 1.
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You see, Feyform Shifter "alters and replaces all improvements to shifter aspect" by Fey aspect, so she don't have any aspect(orginally at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th) other than Fey aspect, and of course no other major form. (minor forms can gotten from 9th, 14th and 20th' abilities)
There is no words "minor form" or "major form" in text, I agree, but her 20th' ability said, "she can use her major and minor forms at will", which indicates She does have a major form. If Fey Shape is not a major form, where does she get a major form from?
If Fey Shape is not a major form, where does she get a major form from?
From the aspects you pick at 9th, 14th, and 20th level (and at least RAW at 1st level, because replacing improvemens doesn't replace the base ability), same as where you get the minor forms from.
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I got your clue. You mean the Feyform Shifter pick a animal aspect, and the aspect give she a minor form and a major form as presents, even if the text do not mention it.
Em, you see, the last sentence of 9th's of Feyform Shifter said, "This modifies Chimeric Aspect", which only related to minor forms. A modification of Chimeric Aspect can change so much to grant a aspect, a minor form and a major form? I think you are overinterpretated.
Em, you see, the last sentence of 9th's of Feyform Shifter said, "This modifies Chimeric Aspect", which only related to minor forms. A modification of Chimeric Aspect can change so much to grant a aspect, a minor form and a major form? I think you are overinterpretated.
An archetype ability can change as much as it wants. The entire time you're basing your opinion on some misunderstood sense of balance or archetype trade concept, and not on the written text. That is not how the game works!
The ability says "a feyform shifter gains a second shifter aspect", this means you gain a shifter aspect. It doesn't matter whether the ability that's altered normally only affects minor forms or only grants a temporary +1 bonus to profession (merchant) checks when a sack of rice falls over in China - when it says you gain an aspect, you gain an aspect, period. And every single aspect ever selected always without expection comes with both a minor and major form, because that's what the rules say.
You gain what an archetype says you gain. How is that concept not clear to you? Whether the ability says it alters or replaces a base ability only changes whether or not you still get the base ability, that's it.
You mean the Feyform Shifter pick a animal aspect, and the aspect give she a minor form and a major form as presents, even if the text do not mention it.
Not presents, it's what picking an aspect means. And the text doesn't mention it because there's no need to, as the aspect description already says so.
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It doesn't have to be like this.
You think the major form comes from Fey Shifter at 9th',cause every aspect has a minor form and a major form. While I think major form comes from the organial Shifter's Wild form(4th) and 5th's ability which are replaced by Feyform Shifter. That's all. If without new evidence, the discusstion could ends here decently.
It doesn't have to be like this.
You think the major form comes from Fey Shifter at 9th',cause every aspect has a minor form and a major form. While I think major form comes from the organial Shifter's Wild form(4th) and 5th's ability which are replaced by Feyform Shifter. That's all. If without new evidence, the discusstion could ends here decently.
When you normally get major forms is irrelevant… if a normal shifter gains major form at 4th when they gain Wild shape, then so too does a feyform shifter, as fey shape does NOT replace Wild shape it only ALTERS it. A Feyform shifter still gains the original wildshape ability in its entirety since the wording of fey shape doesn’t say to replace or remove any aspect of the original ability.
Even if you play in a game where the GM rules that Fey Aspect replaces your first Animal Aspect, it wouldn’t change the fact that when you gain your second aspect at 9th you immediately gain access to both the minor and major forms of that new aspect, same with your third at 14th and fourth at 20th. Which BTW, the wording of the benefits for those abilities strongly suggest that you do infact (as Derklord stated) still get an animal aspect at 1st.
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"Alter" means change A to B, and all unmentioned keep intact.
IMO, both Wild Shape and Fey Shape are about Polymorph, Wild Shape turn into a major form of a animal aspect while Fey Shape transforms into a fey creature instead.
What you states is the Feyform shifter can not only use Wild Shape turn into a animal major form, but also transforms into a fey creature. That's not "alter", but "add". If the rule means "add", the writer would keep the Wild Shape untouched and add a new class ability entry.
If the rule means "add", the writer would keep the Wild Shape untouched and add a new class ability entry.
This is exactly what I was talking about. You base your argument on how you believe an archetype should be written, not on what the text actually says.
The problem is that you're objectively wrong with your assumption. For example, from the Cultivator Bard archetype: "Plant Magic: A cultivator bard adds the following spells to his bard spell list at the corresponding spell levels: entangle (1st), greensight* (2nd), plant growth (3rd), antiplant shell (4th), tree stride (5th), green caress (6th). This alters the bard’s spells." (UW pg. 40) This is a pure addition, an yet it says it "alters" the spells class feature.
Indeed, it is explicit design philosophy for archetypes to not use new class features that don't alter or replace base class features: "Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces or alters a specific requirement or class feature from its base class." (UW pg. 34) There are some exceptions, especially for classes like Cleric where there are but very few class features to work with, but this is the norm.
When an archetype ability alters a base ability, you get every part of the base ability not explicitly removed by the archetype ability. This is an indisputable fact. Until you accept this fact, you will not be able to understand how Feyform Shifter works.
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If the rule means "add", the writer would keep the Wild Shape untouched and add a new class ability entry.No, because they're adding something you can do with wild shape, and not a whole new ability.
I have to admit, to some extent, it make sense, but I still think if taling about the same kind of things, "alter" means replace, not add.
Taking Mongrel Mage for instance, Mongrel Reservoir(Su) "alters the bloodline class feature, bloodline powers, and bloodline spells." not "replace",no "instead" in text, but no one will think Mongrel Mage has both organial bloodline and Mongrel Reservoir.
Another example is the Planar Lore of Chronicler of Worlds. I think it take place of the bounes of Bardic Knowledge, although it said "alter".