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i hardly ever take it. But I have on ocassion taken it if it felt fitting for the character. I don't feel like its a must have but its not a bad choice either
Do all medium armor characters need to take it?
No.
Is it a good decision for a lot of characters that would have had medium armor?
Yes.
Is tying properly scaling proficiencies in gear not normally used by a class (like armor here, or all many cases of weapons that aren't you can't get scaling proficiency in from an Ancestry feat) to Class feats and archetypes a good idea?
I'd say no. Many people would agree with me (judging from the people I have talked with about the subject), but I certainly won't claim to represent everyone.
Is it likely that the design is going to step away from that by doing something like allowing a general feat to scale your out-of-class proficiency to match your class chassis?
Unlikely, at this point.
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Why stop with medium armor classes? Take general training at human 1 for medium armor and sentinel at 2 to rock full plate on the light armor classes.
Why stop with medium armor classes? Take general training at human 1 for medium armor and sentinel at 2 to rock full plate on the light armor classes.
Seems fine to me. Armor shouldn't be the largest determiner of how easy you are to hit anyway.
A mage in plate should be better protected than a mage in robes, but nowhere near as good at blocking and avoiding hits as a fighter.
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I see absolutely nothing wrong with the Sentinel archetype. It's not like a wizard in breastplate or even full plate is suddenly as sturdy as a martial.
And I also do not see what's wrong with playing a medium armor character with 12 dex? What are you losing? +2 reflex? Not optimal, but hardly unplayable.
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I rarely have the three feats to sacrifice on a character for sentinel. I'd rather save that space for character defining class feats or archetypes. If being a bruiser is part of the character image, I'll consider sentinel. Otherwise, an archetype that's only offering you numbers is too restricting. Three feats is six levels; that's a long time to be locked down and unable to shape the identity of your PC.
I think I'd evaluate this differently depending on whether I'm playing with free archetypes. Some classes/builds really want to spend their feats in class.
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As has been said, it's not at all necessary. However, sentinel is more than just +1 AC. Assuming your normal stat array is 18/14/16/8/12/8 sentinel instead makes it 18/10/16/8/14/10. In this case sentinel provides +1 ac, +1 ref, +1 will and leaves cha (or int) at +0 instead of negative. If you aren't dumping stats, you instead get +1 ac, +1 ref, +1 fort and +1 hp/level. Either way, that's a lot of value packed into a single feat. The follow-up feat at 10 for another +1 ref and letting it apply to more than damage is just the cherry on top.
Now, maybe you don't want it preventing other archetypes feats or eating class feats to escape it. Fortunately, you can be free of it by just by taking its archetype feats as skill feats at 4 and 6. Since it only eats skill feats, you don't lose a class feat at 4 or 6 and you can even take another archetype at 6th level since you can take your new feats in any order.
It's mostly a matter of "how many stats can you afford to boost" since it only costs a single boost to max out your AC with medium armor, so you're spending 3 feats for +1 AC and +3 Reflex which I don't think is worth it for any character who's not boosting two separate non-save stats. You have to stay alive to 10th level in order to take Mighty Bulwark, after all.
Like I took it on a barbarian where I wanted Cha (for intimidate), Str(duh), Con, and Wis, but it's not something I'd take on every character.
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The more I look at Sentinel and the more I think Paizo actually built it to be a tax feat for Medium armor users. The fact that you can exit from it as early as level 6 with 2 skill feats (that have nothing to do with any skill) is telling.
I think Paizo realized there was a big issue with Medium Armor users and instead of creating a useful Medium Armor, they just gave them easy access to full plate.
To answer OP's question: Medium Armor users who can afford to improve Dexterity don't need it but may take it as it's still quite powerful. Those who can't increase Dexterity need it, for them it's just a tax feat.
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It's an investment like any other feat or dedication. If a character wants something, then he has to give up for something else.
This one is not even a "real" tax feat, since it allows the chaeacter to just invest a single class feat, trading 2 additional skill feats to "end" The dedication rather than expending 2 more class feats.
Probably even way too good, but that's it.
It's not mandatory, like any other dedication or feat. It's just a matter of choices and character customization.
If it was a matter of choice, then why allowing an easy way out of what seems to be one of the most interesting archetypes out there? And especially this one and only this one?
Actually, it's very close to a widely available level 2 class feat giving Heavy Armor proficiency. It's even closer to such a feat than to an actual archetype that would push you to take 2 extra class feats and really force you to choose with other archetypes.
But Sentinel, it can be pushed in nearly every build and delays you for 4 levels at most.
Too many coincidences making me think this is not an actual archetype but a fix.
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I think you underestimate how much of an an investment 2 skill feats are for a lot of characters/players. You also need to be trained in survival for one of them and the other one has been marked for a potential change/redesign. It might well end up requiring trained/expert athletics or outright lose the skill trait alltogether. So after the errate (whenever that's going to happen), it might cost you 2 skills trained, one excpert boost, one class feat and two skill feat. I don't call that an "easy way out".
As for why there are many skill feats early in the archetype, I would imagine it's hard to come up with a decent number of abilities that revolve around using armor and that are worth a class feat without becoming overpowered.
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I think it's an okay archetype, useful but not unreasonably so. Compared to what else you could buy with the same class feats, it feels on par, not over or under.
The real problem it puts a spotlight on is other options like Armor Proficiency feats that don't scale properly at later levels.
My take is that a feat once taken should keep doing what it did when you took it. If you took a feat to be able to use an armor properly, that's fine. If you later have to re-up your proficiency by spending another feat to keep up, that's invalidating the earlier feat spend, and that's not okay.
Best thing about Sentinel is if you only want it for heavy armour prof you can use a general feat until like level 12 and lose nothing, so you can fit in another dedication before taking it.
While that's true, it also.makes you pay for Sentinel with a higher level class feat which - in theory - should bench more valuable than a lower level one. It's not true for all classes, of course, but some.
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I've never seen anyone take save in theoretical discussions.
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Do medium armor characters feel like they must take this archetype? Should this archetype even exist? Other armor gripes and discussion.
I personally have never felt like I needed to grab this feat. Not because it is bad. So I like that it is in the game for some fun builds.
All it really does is give +1 ac but you lose 5 speed late game. Then of course you can "dump" dex and put those points into other things. Dex can be good for ranged attacks though.
The only gripe I have is how badly balanced unarmored is early game while late game it is equal to other types. Just a strange situation to me that casters like Wizard/Witch are incentivized to pick up some a proficiency then retrain once they hit 18/20 dex.
I actually find this archetype more interesting for unarmored characters compared to medium for early game. I also find Champion to be much more interesting though when it come to archetypes.
So overall I almost never grab this archetype. I would rather pick up light armor and retrain it for most characters.
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I think the thing to keep in mind is that the developers deliberately wanted there to be a reason for you to want heavy armor. In previous editions, it really was a suboptimal choice, so for PF2 they engineered heavy armor to be desirable but to involve tradeoffs.
One of those tradeoffs is potentially "invest three class feats in it". Is that sometimes worth it? Absolutely. Is it always- no.
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Wearing heavy without the str is completely debilitating imo (-10speed).
It can be worked around without debilitation: Elf + Nimble Elf/Nimble Hooves/Swift is 35' so 25' with the -10' and at 3rd it goes up to 40' (30' with -10') if you pick up Fleet. Bellflower Tiller Dedication also adds +5'. Go with a non-elf sylph/tiefling gets you -5' (20' at 1st, 25' with Fleet).
Speed is something that isn't overly hard to boost. Heck a wand of longstrider (2nd) or casting it if a caster is a pretty simple fix for +10' for 8 hrs.
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I think it's also important to keep in mind the str requirements for a lot of said theoretical builds.
A lot of medium armor classes are hybrids that do not get 18str until level 5. Wearing heavy without the str is completely debilitating imo (-10speed).
Only Full Plate (and the Uncommon Hellknight Plate) is STR 18.
Maybe I am just not reading carefully enough, but what about Sentinel makes it so much better or even a 'must-have' than other archetypes/dedications?
I don't think if is a must have myself, but the value is based around how hard it is to boost your AC past the light/medium limits, plus Bulwark/mighty bulkwark taking so much pressure off Dex.
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So, maybe its just me, this seems like a case of jealously. A character without an 18 strength and/or no access to heavy armor wants access to bulwark without paying the "cost" and therefore thinks it should just be added to medium armor. I just don't see a justification for it narratively and philosophically it "feels" like a balancing metric for characters that have a lot of other benefits not encroaching on the nitch that is generally filled by champions & fighters. YMMV
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Maybe I am just not reading carefully enough, but what about Sentinel makes it so much better or even a 'must-have' than other archetypes/dedications?I don't think if is a must have myself, but the value is based around how hard it is to boost your AC past the light/medium limits, plus Bulwark/mighty bulkwark taking so much pressure off Dex.
Plus getting out real early. It is far less costly than most other archetypes, even less useful ones.
Heck, it would already be real attractive even if you had to spend 3 Class feats before getting another dedication.
I would say that a +1 to AC is not really worth the -5 to speed. Is +1 AC nice? Yeah I wouldn't say no in a vacuum. But having a 30 speed instead of 25 can mean the difference between one hit a round and two (either me hitting them twice to them hitting me twice).
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I mean, you can max out your AC with medium armor with just one stat boost to dex. You can negate the -5 speed penalty with one general feat (fleet) or one ancestry feat for certain ancestries.
So for one stat boost to dex, and one non-class feat you can be at -1 AC and -3 reflex compared to what the Sentinel gives you for 3 class feats (and 4 boosts to strength).
Yes, it can be "worked aroumd"... With investment.
But at this point we are comparing the benefits not to "sentinel", but "sentinel + ancestry feat+ general feat".
Not really: JUST saying 'I'm playing an elf' leaves you at the same speed other ancestries have by having an 18 str. The extra feats are just to show multiple ways to buff speed up to whatever you want not that you'd be required to take them all. And remember, I was just pointing out that "Wearing heavy without the str is completely debilitating" doesn't have to be true: whether it's worth it isn't what I was posting about as that varies from person to person.
As the simplest example, picking up fleet to counteract half the speed penalty and save a dex boost, is not really different than picking toughness.
And that doesn't take into account the sizable bulk of stuff like full plate.
Additional Bulk isn't too onerous on a caster. Weapon users can have a harder time is they pick a weapon[s] that are Bulky too. Taking Hefty Hauler [or a background that gives it] can help.
And I don't think Bellflower is especially relevant, at least to this particular point, since Humble was talking about speed penalties before level 5, and you can't enter that dedication until level 6.
It's relevant, IMO, as it can replace feats you took before 5 with it: say you took Fleet plus Nimble Elf/Nimble Hooves/Swift to counteract all the speed penalty from not having enough str, so to keep that you could retrain those 2 when you take Bellflower if you wished.
In regards to the speed penalty, can't that be made up with gold by going for Mithral armor? That lowers both the required Strength and speed penalty. Now, you're still making an opportunity cost but of gold rather than feats.
Just wanted to bring that up since it isn't often mentioned.
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I would say that a +1 to AC is not really worth the -5 to speed. Is +1 AC nice? Yeah I wouldn't say no in a vacuum. But having a 30 speed instead of 25 can mean the difference between one hit a round and two (either me hitting them twice to them hitting me twice).
It depends a lot on the character and what their base speed is. The difference between 20 ft and 25 ft is a lot, the difference between 30 and 35 much less.
And the more you're in melee the more important that +1 to AC is
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If you can finagle 14 dex, you can also spend 2 class feats on the rogue dedication and get master reflex that way. So compared to the 10 dex character who spends 3 feats on sentinel, you can have the same reflex save and -1 AC. If you're worried about giving up Int for those two dex boosts, skill mastery is a really good feat to round out the 3 feat investment in the rogue dedication.
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If you can finagle 14 dex, you can also spend 2 class feats on the rogue dedication and get master reflex that way. So compared to the 10 dex character who spends 3 feats on sentinel, you can have the same reflex save and -1 AC. If you're worried about giving up Int for those two dex boosts, skill mastery is a really good feat to round out the 3 feat investment in the rogue dedication.
That is a huge constraint on build just to avoid taking the sentinel archetype.
you really think that having to pick up a specific ancestry is not a price?
Hardly an onerous one and it's one of several methods so, again it's NOT the big investment you're making it out to be.
It's not like you get to pick 10 different ancestries for your character, you only have that one single choice.
Sure... OR you can spend an ancestry feat from 3 of them... OR you can use a general feat...
let alone that this is an ancestry with dex bonus on a character that you are going for 10dex to begin with!
Voluntary Flaws are a thing. But if that's too much for you how about a Hunter Automaton [str and free boost]?
All those to me are pretty significant costs.
To you I guess but not to me.
Ancestry is extremely character defining. It's basically who you are.
It's as defining as you and the rest of the group make it. The only thing set in stone is the ancestry stats and base abilities. But again, there are 4 ancestry/heritage options with 30' and even then you could just break down and take a feat instead: plenty of builds require human [with extra class feat, Cooperative Nature, Unconventional Weaponry, ect] so this is hardly the first time someone's suggested a race as part of a build. The difference here is that it's totally is, like you, you feel the -10' speed to too great AND you don't play a character with an 18 str. You're acting like building with sentinel requires being an elf when it was one of many suggested ways to increase your speed if you're worried about that.
Having to spend general feats to counterbalance speed and bulk and not picking up Toughness and etc until much further along is also a steep investment.
I understand you FEEL that is it: that doesn't make it so for others though. I often don't find anything I specifically want/need for some levels of skill/general feats [or ancestry] for some builds so for me it can be a minor inconvenience at best. I don't have the NEED to pick up toughness you seem to have. Now if we where talking class feats then I'd agree that that is an investment [I never have enough of them].
Knowing that you can do all those and still end up slower than anyone else not picking heavy armor is also there.
This is something every heavy armor build has to weigh and deal with. If you can't imagine you moving even slightly slower than others, then you must never ever even think of playing a dwarf with a 20' to start.
Is it worth it? Maybe. Sometimes. In very specific builds.
Is it "too good for its cost?" hellno
I don't recall ever claiming how worthy or good it was: that's something for each player to figure out. Myself, I wouldn't call it too good. The fact that some see it as too good and some like you see it as not good enough makes me think it's in a good place.