Living breathing familiars, or pet rocks?

[gesalt]

Debelinho wrote:

EDIT: By your interpretation of minion rules, carrier pigeons are impossible by RAW...their task/command lasts for hours or even days....so something humanity has used for thousands of years and is a staple in all medieval and fantasy tropes is impossible. So my "2 miles too far" is a generous assessment

minion rules wrote:

If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.

Pigeons delivering mail were a clever use of their instinct to return home and find that home no matter where they were released from. The command here would be to have it hold still while you attached a package and maybe tell it to go away. 1 minute later, it'd decide to go home carrying its payload. One command, two at best. Doesn't even need to be a minion really. Just grapple it and attach whatever with some improvised action and leave it to its own devices. Either way, probably not the avenue of argument you want to take.

[Norade]

breithauptclan wrote:

graystone wrote:

We know that Command lasts 6 seconds: it a fact. As such, there isn't any assumption. You can insist on any time frame you wish but it's not based on anything but pure fiat.

Really? Where does it say that as a fact?

I see in the Minion trait where is says that in combat a command lasts for 2 actions.

But where does it say that a command lasts 6 seconds in exploration mode?

It doesn't, but we have rules for using combat actions with no stated exploration mode use case mode. Thus those of us staying within RAW use those rules to resolve the minions in exploration mode issue.

You seem to take no explicit ruling as carte blanche to make up whatever you like. That's a fine way to play but not RAW and not useful to the general gameplaying public.

[Temperans]

breithauptclan wrote:

graystone wrote:

We know that Command lasts 6 seconds: it a fact. As such, there isn't any assumption. You can insist on any time frame you wish but it's not based on anything but pure fiat.

Really? Where does it say that as a fact?

I see in the Minion trait where is says that in combat a command lasts for 2 actions.

But where does it say that a command lasts 6 seconds in exploration mode?

Improving new activities tells you that. We have quoted the text, I explained how it works. You just choose to ignore it.

There is no place in the rulebooks that make commands last longer than 6 seconds. If you want to change it so that it depends on the mode that is on you to homebrew it. As far as RAW goes it is 6 seconds (1 round) per action and no more.

[breithauptclan]

Norade wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

But where does it say that a command lasts 6 seconds in exploration mode?

It doesn't,

Thank you for at least acknowledging that.

Norade wrote:

but we have rules for using combat actions with no stated exploration mode use case mode. Thus those of us staying within RAW use those rules to resolve the minions in exploration mode issue.

The improvised activities rules have guidelines for when you are using a single action 10 times per minute, or alternating two actions at 5 each per minute.

It also has guidelines for using an action 20 times per minute (a 2-action event once per round). And for using things more than that (a full 3-action round every round). But it doesn't have any guidelines for doing things less frequently than that.

So if commands in exploration mode are first ruled to be 1 minute in duration, why would we use the improvised exploration rule?

-------

Because the Minion trait doesn't specify action economy outside of combat, we have to extrapolate from the rules that do exist.

One candidate sentence is this:

Minion trait wrote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.

This one clearly applies to combat only. Yes, if you start with that as the basis for non-combat it follows nicely that commands given outside of combat also only give two actions to the minion. And if you want the minion to do something longer than two actions, you can use the improvised activity rule to continually give commands at 10 per minute.

But there is also this:

Minion trait also wrote:

If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.

This one clearly applies to outside of combat. So extrapolating from this: if a minion does nothing for a minute when commanded to do nothing, then it follows that if they are commanded to do something they will do it for a minute before stopping - at which point the improvised activity rule is not needed.

This also is a completely viable extrapolation of the Minion trait rules.

So it is not the case that I am choosing to ignore rules. I am using a different sentence of the same rule to base my extrapolation on.

[Norade]

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

But where does it say that a command lasts 6 seconds in exploration mode?

It doesn't,

Thank you for at least acknowledging that.

Norade wrote:

but we have rules for using combat actions with no stated exploration mode use case mode. Thus those of us staying within RAW use those rules to resolve the minions in exploration mode issue.

The improvised activities rules have guidelines for when you are using a single action 10 times per minute, or alternating two actions at 5 each per minute.

It also has guidelines for using an action 20 times per minute (a 2-action event once per round). And for using things more than that (a full 3-action round every round). But it doesn't have any guidelines for doing things less frequently than that.

So if commands in exploration mode are first ruled to be 1 minute in duration, why would we use the improvised exploration rule?

Except that nowhere does it say that commands last one minute. The rules only tell us what minions do after 1 minute without receiving a new command. RAW all commands to any minion only last 6-seconds in any mode of play.

[Nicolas Paradise]

breithauptclan wrote:

Because the Minion trait doesn't specify action economy outside of combat, we have to extrapolate from the rules that do exist.

One candidate sentence is this:

Minion trait wrote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.

This one clearly applies to combat only. Yes, if you start with that as the basis for non-combat it follows nicely that commands given outside of combat also only give two actions to the minion. And if you want the minion to do something longer than two actions, you can use the improvised activity rule to continually give commands at 10 per minute.

But there is also this:

Minion trait also wrote:

If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act

...

By this logic shouldn't a command last 6 seconds than if no other command is given it does nothing but defend itself or avoid danger for the remaining 54 seconds before it would act on its nature?

[Temperans]

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

But where does it say that a command lasts 6 seconds in exploration mode?

It doesn't,

Thank you for at least acknowledging that.

Norade wrote:

but we have rules for using combat actions with no stated exploration mode use case mode. Thus those of us staying within RAW use those rules to resolve the minions in exploration mode issue.

The improvised activities rules have guidelines for when you are using a single action 10 times per minute, or alternating two actions at 5 each per minute.

It also has guidelines for using an action 20 times per minute (a 2-action event once per round). And for using things more than that (a full 3-action round every round). But it doesn't have any guidelines for doing things less frequently than that.

So if commands in exploration mode are first ruled to be 1 minute in duration, why would we use the improvised exploration rule?

-------

Because the Minion trait doesn't specify action economy outside of combat, we have to extrapolate from the rules that do exist.

One candidate sentence is this:

Minion trait wrote:

A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn, doesn't have reactions, and can't act when it's not your turn. Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.

This one clearly applies to combat only. Yes, if you start with that as the basis for non-combat it follows nicely that commands given outside of combat also only give two actions to the minion. And if you want the minion to do something longer than two actions, you can use the improvised activity rule to continually give commands at 10 per minute.

But there is also this:

Minion trait also wrote:

If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm. If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don't act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act

...

Wow what a way to misinterpret the rules.

First of all, you cutting out someone's answer, which is the very definition of cherry picking. Then follow it up by asking what happens when you rule command to last longer than the game says? I already mentioned what happens in the best case, but you ignored it. Just like you ignore that "Repeat a Spell" is it's own activity. Which debunks your whole logic.

You are using the "improvise activity" rule. When I gave you the "improvise new activities" rule which is exactly what using command for 10 minutes is a new activity. The improvised new activity rule is also a lot more clear about how to rule.

You then go on to talk. About command giving 2 actions but that has nothing to do with the player's activity or what the minion gets to do. Regardless of whether you use the "improvise activity" or the "improvise new activity" guidelines.

Similarly you are extrapolating the ability wrong. That rule does not say that the familiar does nothing for 1 minute when commanded to do nothing. It tells you what the minion does when it's been more than a minute since you told them to do something.

Quote:

Your version: Command to do nothing) == minion does nothing for 1 minute == commands last one minute.

Actual rules: lastCommand was 1 minute ago == do random stuff.

It has absolutely 0 bearing on how the activity works.

Finally, you cherry picking rules does not eliminate the rest of the rules for how to handle something. Which seem to be the difference in argument.

[breithauptclan]

Norade wrote:

Except that nowhere does it say that commands last one minute. The rules only tell us what minions do after 1 minute without receiving a new command. RAW all commands to any minion only last 6-seconds in any mode of play.

Nowhere does it say that commands last 6 seconds either. The Minion trait says that commands last 2 actions when in combat. Which would be better approximated as lasting 4 seconds, not 6 seconds. And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

Pretty much any ruling made from that lack of clear rules becomes an argument from ignorance (we don't know/we can't determine, therefore my ideas must be correct) - for all sides of the debate.

[GM OfAnything]

Yes. If you start from where we are, "There are no rules that address this," it is a lot easier to fill in with what works for your table. Familiars are not limited by encounter rules, just your imagination (and GM adjudication).

[Norade]

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

Except that nowhere does it say that commands last one minute. The rules only tell us what minions do after 1 minute without receiving a new command. RAW all commands to any minion only last 6-seconds in any mode of play.

Nowhere does it say that commands last 6 seconds either. The Minion trait says that commands last 2 actions when in combat. Which would be better approximated as lasting 4 seconds, not 6 seconds. And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

That's also not what the rules say. The rules say that a minion gets 4-seconds worth of actions in a 6-second combat round if given commands.

Quote:

And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

So if it doesn't say, why would you default to making things up rather than falling back to rules that we do have? We can easily within RAW run minion scouting rules with the combat rules and improvised actions, your making up a system because you don't like the results that gives, not because the rules don't exist.

[Norade]

GM OfAnything wrote:

Yes. If you start from where we are, "There are no rules that address this," it is a lot easier to fill in with what works for your table. Familiars are not limited by encounter rules, just your imagination (and GM adjudication).

At that point why buy the books at all?

[breithauptclan]

Norade wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

Except that nowhere does it say that commands last one minute. The rules only tell us what minions do after 1 minute without receiving a new command. RAW all commands to any minion only last 6-seconds in any mode of play.

Nowhere does it say that commands last 6 seconds either. The Minion trait says that commands last 2 actions when in combat. Which would be better approximated as lasting 4 seconds, not 6 seconds. And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

That's also not what the rules say. The rules say that a minion gets 4-seconds worth of actions in a 6-second combat round if given commands.

Quote:

And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

So if it doesn't say, why would you default to making things up rather than falling back to rules that we do have? We can easily within RAW run minion scouting rules with the combat rules and improvised actions, your making up a system because you don't like the results that gives, not because the rules don't exist.

Because the rules are ambiguous. Because the 4-6 second ruling doesn't work for all tables and game styles. Because RAW says that if the rules are ambiguous and one ruling doesn't work, use the other ruling that does.

This is why we need errata for this.

[GM OfAnything]

Norade wrote:

GM OfAnything wrote:

Yes. If you start from where we are, "There are no rules that address this," it is a lot easier to fill in with what works for your table. Familiars are not limited by encounter rules, just your imagination (and GM adjudication).

At that point why buy the books at all?

For all the other rules.

Paizo was pretty smart about what they defined and what they left to the table. Trying to define exactly what a familiar can do in encounter mode would only ever result in rules that are both extremely limiting and incomplete. That kind of codifying of familiars would break a magnitude many more tables than it fixed.

[Temperans]

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

Norade wrote:

Except that nowhere does it say that commands last one minute. The rules only tell us what minions do after 1 minute without receiving a new command. RAW all commands to any minion only last 6-seconds in any mode of play.

Nowhere does it say that commands last 6 seconds either. The Minion trait says that commands last 2 actions when in combat. Which would be better approximated as lasting 4 seconds, not 6 seconds. And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

That's also not what the rules say. The rules say that a minion gets 4-seconds worth of actions in a 6-second combat round if given commands.

Quote:

And it doesn't say anything at all when giving commands when not in combat.

So if it doesn't say, why would you default to making things up rather than falling back to rules that we do have? We can easily within RAW run minion scouting rules with the combat rules and improvised actions, your making up a system because you don't like the results that gives, not because the rules don't exist.

Because the rules are ambiguous. Because the 4-6 second ruling doesn't work for all tables and game styles. Because RAW says that if the rules are ambiguous and one ruling doesn't work, use the other ruling that does.

This is why we need errata for this.

If you don't like the rule and want an FAQ as Paizo. But until Paizo decides to answer and if they decide you are wrong. Make a house rule for it like I have been suggesting multiple times.

I literally changed the drowning/suffocating rules in PF1 because I though it was insane that you would die in 3 rounds. You are free to change the PF2 familiar rules to.

But don't say Paizo didn't give rules for how to run it. Bad rules are still rules, it's why they had to change Alchemist.

[Debelinho]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

For the same reason that we don't allow Wish to automatically banish 8 appropriate-challenge demons: It's contrived, not RAW, and absolutely has no basis in our arguments. It's about as relevant as D&D5E rules, really.

well, go read the book again, with understanding, unlike minion rules

9th lvl banishment(which is a 9th or lower level effect that Wish can replicate) easily banishes 8 16th level fiends. They need to roll 16+ to not be banished, so sure, maybe 1 or 2 get to stay.

And good thing you're not really here to allow or disallowing anything, or this game would suck big time.

EDIT: btw, where did you find that bolded "automatically" anywhere in my post? Putting words in other people mouths again?

[Debelinho]

gesalt wrote:

Pigeons delivering mail were a clever use of their instinct to return home and find that home no matter where they were released from. The command here would be to have it hold still while you attached a package and maybe tell it to go away. 1 minute later, it'd decide to go home carrying its payload. One command, two at best. Doesn't even need to be a minion really. Just grapple it and attach whatever with some improvised action and leave it to its own devices. Either way, probably not the avenue of argument you want to take.

Sure thing, but some people here advocate that you can't order your familiar pigeon to fly straight up 1000ft, bc around 600ft, it can't really hear you anymore, and then it falls down and gets 300 falling damage, bc you didn't order it to fly, and 1 min hasn't passed so that it's instincts kick in.

what a wonderful interpretation of rules

[graystone]

breithauptclan wrote:

This is why we need errata for this.

I'd like more clarity on a LOT of things like why make a system for item damage and then make it nearly impossible to use it unless it's a shield or a hazard: IE, I can't even use an axe to chop down a door or cut a rope...

Things with rules that some people find unsatisfying or lacking, like familiars, needs at least some guidance on the intent so there is a greater chance people playing similarly across different tables. That way you have a baseline to work from.

Debelinho wrote:

Sure thing, but some people here advocate that you can't order your familiar pigeon to fly straight up 1000ft, bc around 600ft, it can't really hear you anymore, and then it falls down and gets 300 falling damage, bc you didn't order it to fly, and 1 min hasn't passed so that it's instincts kick in.

what a wonderful interpretation of rules

Pointing out what the rules are isn't the same thing as advocating for them. Neither is replying to how I'd rule things when asked. So, I'll point out that you never get to the falling point and I never said they would/should:

"If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." as such, they would use an action to fly [though it's unclear what action it'd be because the fly rules are wonky].

Ambiguous Rules: "If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed." The rules tell you it's ok to houserule if something seems to be a problematic for you.

[graystone]

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:

So why you go point by point addressing Debelinho's post but not the part about the carrier pigeon?

Because it doesn't follow a command to do so: you don't tell one to go to a particular place. Instead you tape a message to a leg and toss it into the air where it flying off on it's own. As such, it works just fine as a normal animal [not a animal companion, familiar or bonded animal]. As such, it really doesn't have a bearing in the debate over familiars.

Now it's fun fact time: It should be homing/messenger pigeons as lots of carrier pigeons can no longer have a homing sense. Historically, pigeons carried messages only one way, to their home. They had to be transported manually before another flight. However, by placing their food at one location and their home at another location, pigeons have been trained to fly back and forth up to twice a day reliably, covering round-trip flights up to 160 km (100 mi). IE, trained not commanded. ;)

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Debelinho wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

For the same reason that we don't allow Wish to automatically banish 8 appropriate-challenge demons: It's contrived, not RAW, and absolutely has no basis in our arguments. It's about as relevant as D&D5E rules, really.

well, go read the book again, with understanding, unlike minion rules

9th lvl banishment(which is a 9th or lower level effect that Wish can replicate) easily banishes 8 16th level fiends. They need to roll 16+ to not be banished, so sure, maybe 1 or 2 get to stay.

And good thing you're not really here to allow or disallowing anything, or this game would suck big time.

EDIT: btw, where did you find that bolded "automatically" anywhere in my post? Putting words in other people mouths again?

We're 19th level PCs facing enemies 3 levels lower than us and calling it a credible threat? I mean, sure, having no gear drastically adjusts values, Striking runes in particular, but the situation is still so contrived that we might as well have a macguffin save the PCs, because that's basically what we need to make this scenario make any sense. It's so irrelevant to the topic that you would be better off making its own thread.

[graystone]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

we might as well have a macguffin save the PCs

How about an unobtanium weapons and a few O-Parts? ;)

[Debelinho]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

We're 19th level PCs facing enemies 3 levels lower than us and calling it a credible threat? I mean, sure, having no gear drastically adjusts values, Striking runes in particular, but the situation is still so contrived that we might as well have a macguffin save the PCs, because that's basically what we need to make this scenario make any sense. It's so irrelevant to the topic that you would be better off making its own thread.

It's a niche situation, as I was pointing out that every 1st lvl feat has it's niche situation where it saves the day. Having 8 -3 or -4 level enemies vs 1 naked guy that needs to free the rest of his party is more than extreme encounter for 1 naked PC, and would be even a moderate threat for fully packed 4 persons party.

it's as relevant and credible to the topic as pointing out how basic familiar feat is so powerful that it can recast a 10th lvl innate spell.
After I said that every 1st lvl feat can do OP shit at high levels, I was challenged to provide an example where eschew materials can do that. so I did.

graystone wrote:

Because it doesn't follow a command to do so: you don't tell one to go to a particular place. Instead you tape a message to a leg and toss it into the air where it flying off on it's own. As such, it works just fine as a normal animal [not a animal companion, familiar or bonded animal]. As such, it really doesn't have a bearing in the debate over familiars.

LOL, there he goes again, abandoning the holy RAW and going all loosey goosey on us.

graystone wrote:

Pointing out what the rules are isn't the same thing as advocating for them. Neither is replying to how I'd rule things when asked. So, I'll point out that you never get to the falling point and I never said they would/should:

no you didn't, but you said that it's possible to command your familiar into starvation. So what happens to a familiar that is flying and then you command it to do 2 non fly actions? Or what happens when they start falling for any reason? they have no reactions to use arrest fall, so they die every time if their altitude is sufficient. The rules are not ambiguous here, they are clear as day, right? That is your argument for minion rules throughout this thread if I'm not mistaken?

This whole thread is about how do you PLAY your familiars - as living beings or backpack batteries? No one sensible was disputing encounter mode rules for them or action economy balance in combat.

by your interpretation of rules, their familiar abilities are useless, except few of them that work more like master abilities(like valet).
Asserting that they somehow give you "double the power" during exploration and invalidate eidolons and other party members is contrived to say the least, and prolly happens only in some rookie games of fresh GM's and cheesy players

[Debelinho]

So as a thought experiment for us all still reading this thread:

as a GM how would you play a heavily invested high level familiar imp with 15 abilities compared to a regular imp that was crit Dominated by the same familiar master?

asking mostly for exploration/downtime modes of play

[Temperans]

Debelinho wrote:

graystone wrote:

Because it doesn't follow a command to do so: you don't tell one to go to a particular place. Instead you tape a message to a leg and toss it into the air where it flying off on it's own. As such, it works just fine as a normal animal [not a animal companion, familiar or bonded animal]. As such, it really doesn't have a bearing in the debate over familiars.

LOL, there he goes again, abandoning the holy RAW and going all loosey goosey on us.

What? That is exactly how it works in game, a minion or animal that is commanded to do something only has two actions and the command only lasts 6 seconds. Sending a messaging pigeon is not commanding it's just setting them free to do whatever. Its why people would send multiple pigeons to ensure that at least 1 message would arrive to the destination.

Debelinho wrote:

graystone wrote:

Pointing out what the rules are isn't the same thing as advocating for them. Neither is replying to how I'd rule things when asked. So, I'll point out that you never get to the falling point and I never said they would/should:

no you didn't, but you said that it's possible to command your familiar into starvation. So what happens to a familiar that is flying and then you command it to do 2 non fly actions? Or what happens...

Yes, by the rules it's possible to command a minion to starvation just like it's possible to do with IRL pets. If you keep telling an animal to do something without letting them rest, eat, or drink they will die.

Similarly, nothing in the minion rules say that they ignore the flying rules. So, a player that that fail to command a flying minion to continue flying will see their minion plumet to the ground. A GM may if they wish force one of the actions to be fly due to minion self-preservation; But a GM is not required to handhold a player giving a bad command, just like they aren't required to tell a player not to stand in a place that is trapped.

[Temperans]

Debelinho wrote:

So as a thought experiment for us all still reading this thread:

as a GM how would you play a heavily invested high level familiar imp with 15 abilities compared to a regular imp that was crit Dominated by the same familiar master?

asking mostly for exploration/downtime modes of play

Least you could do is read what the spell does.

Dominate wrote:

You take command of the target, forcing it to obey your orders. If you issue an obviously self-destructive order, the target doesn't act until you issue a new order. The effect depends on its Will save.

Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target is stunned 1 as it fights off your commands.
Failure You control the target. It gains the controlled condition, but it can attempt a Will save at the end of each of its turns. On a success, the spell ends.
Critical Failure As a failure, but the target receives a new save only if you give it a new order that is against its nature, such as killing its allies.

Controlled wrote:

Someone else is making your decisions for you, usually because you're being commanded or magically dominated. The controller dictates how you act and can make you use any of your actions, including attacks, reactions, or even Delay. The controller usually does not have to spend their own actions when controlling you.

Do you notice what that says? The controller usually does not have to spend their own actions when controlling you. Does the spell say you get complete control? If no, then you have to issue commands as normal. If yes, then you can do whatever as long as it's within the effect of the spell.

Also do you notice how most of the spells that let you take control or command creatures prevent the use of self-harm commands? But nothing about it under minions, familiars, or animal companions. At least none that I saw.

[Debelinho]

Temperans wrote:

Least you could do is read what the spell does.

I know what the spell does by RAW....I didn't really post this for people to cite RAW, I own my copy of the book and can read.

I'm asking how would you as a GM play those 2 different forms of control during exploration mode of play?

how would you play them both under same circumstances?
how would they act if left unsupervised(but still have an uncompleted task)?

[Debelinho]

Temperans wrote:

Yes, by the rules it's possible to command a minion to starvation just like it's possible to do with IRL pets. If you keep telling an animal to do something without letting them rest, eat, or drink they will die.

Not sure in what reality you live buddy, but it's not really possible to vocally force something to starve to death on purpose. Same as it's fully possible to fit 4 persons comfortably in a 5 ft square elevator in real life.

Not sure have you ever seen trained birds of prey in action?...those hunts last for more than 6 seconds...If your argument is again that it just does what is in it's nature, then it's really easy for familiar masters in your world - They just have to provide a detailed background and nature of their familiar and it can do all kinds of cool stuff I guess.

[Temperans]

Debelinho wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Yes, by the rules it's possible to command a minion to starvation just like it's possible to do with IRL pets. If you keep telling an animal to do something without letting them rest, eat, or drink they will die.

Not sure in what reality you live buddy, but it's not really possible to vocally force something to starve to death on purpose. Same as it's fully possible to fit 4 persons comfortably in a 5 ft square elevator in real life.

Not sure have you ever seen trained birds of prey in action?...those hunts last for more than 6 seconds...If your argument is again that it just does what is in it's nature, then it's really easy for familiar masters in your world - They just have to provide a detailed background and nature of their familiar and it can do all kinds of cool stuff I guess.

To your question of how to run them exploration mode, you run them exactly how the rules imply. If you don't have to give commands you don't have to give commands. If you do, well then they are effectively the same as a minion.

But regarding this second post and my question to you. Why do you keep confusing "animal does what an animal does" with "animal does what you command it"?

Training an animal to do something does not mean that you command it to do something. Similar, commanding it to do something does not mean that you trained it to do something, much less that it will do what you said. A bird of prey going on a hunt is something they already do to stay alive the GM runs that as normal. A bird of prey given a command will do something for 6 seconds. Then after a minute the GM may have a minion continue to do nothing, or do something it would do as an animal. But they will still follow the minion rules, no place in the rules says that you can ignore the minion rules when ever you want.

This is why you can dislike the minion rules and want it changed to be better. But you cannot say the minion rules as they currently are are good.

********************
* P.S. You can totally verbally make an animal starve by virtue of certain animals just being dumb or unsuited for a region. Familiars not having stat lines are even easier to die this way as they get less actions than their wild counter parts, and cannot make attacks. Really hard to eat when you cannot hunt.

There are a lot of IRL pets that die from neglet, please take care of you pets.

[Ravingdork]

This discussion has taken such a strange turn...

[graystone]

Debelinho wrote:

LOL, there he goes again, abandoning the holy RAW and going all loosey goosey on us.

I assumed you where referring to what happens when you do not command a familiar for a minute: "animals follow their instincts". As such, my answer was very on point as RAW involves their instincts. Again, I'm not sure why you're attacking me instead of debating the actual merits.

Debelinho wrote:

no you didn't, but you said that it's possible to command your familiar into starvation.

Yes, that's how it works. It also means that the PC has stayed up 24/7 to give it a command every minute of that time for how ever many days it took... So if you want something even MORE contrived than the naked wizard senerio, you found it.

Debelinho wrote:

So what happens to a familiar that is flying and then you command it to do 2 non fly actions? Or what happens when they start falling for any reason? they have no reactions to use arrest fall, so they die every time if their altitude is sufficient. The rules are not ambiguous here, they are clear as day, right? That is your argument for minion rules throughout this thread if I'm not mistaken?

It falls like a rock if no movement commanded while flying. If they start falling, well they fall. As to the rules, they are the rules.

Debelinho wrote:

by your interpretation of rules, their familiar abilities are useless, except few of them that work more like master abilities(like valet). Asserting that they somehow give you "double the power" during exploration and invalidate eidolons and other party members is contrived to say the least, and prolly happens only in some rookie games of fresh GM's and cheesy players

No, their familiar abilities are extremely valuable: they just do not require that they also have their own exploration/downtime activities also.

Debelinho wrote:

I know what the spell does by RAW....I didn't really post this for people to cite RAW, I own my copy of the book and can read.

I'm asking how would you as a GM play those 2 different forms of control during exploration mode of play?

For some of us, the RAW is how we play it.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Debelinho wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

We're 19th level PCs facing enemies 3 levels lower than us and calling it a credible threat? I mean, sure, having no gear drastically adjusts values, Striking runes in particular, but the situation is still so contrived that we might as well have a macguffin save the PCs, because that's basically what we need to make this scenario make any sense. It's so irrelevant to the topic that you would be better off making its own thread.

It's a niche situation, as I was pointing out that every 1st lvl feat has it's niche situation where it saves the day. Having 8 -3 or -4 level enemies vs 1 naked guy that needs to free the rest of his party is more than extreme encounter for 1 naked PC, and would be even a moderate threat for fully packed 4 persons party.

it's as relevant and credible to the topic as pointing out how basic familiar feat is so powerful that it can recast a 10th lvl innate spell.
After I said that every 1st lvl feat can do OP s%*# at high levels, I was challenged to provide an example where eschew materials can do that. so I did.

Most 1st level feats need to scale up to the higher level expected math to maintain effectiveness. If we compare Familiars and Eschew Materials to feats like Twin Takedown, Sudden Charge, Raging Intimidation, etc. You'll notice that they are lacking due to not having any scaling. Eschew Materials is lacking because it requires niche situations for it to be effective, and those situations are going to be very contrived by standard game measures, in which case, off-the-beaten-path rules are already in place and we're going well past RAW. Familiars, while in a similar category, also fall off simply because of incomplete mechanics (no attribute scores/modifiers, inability to do reactions, unclear exploration/downtime activities, and so on), plus poor scaling (doesn't go beyond Trained in anything, which is a "need to roll above a 25% chance to succeed" by the mid levels, and a participation award roll by the higher levels). It's double-whammy'd. Whereas other feats are still relevant based on other factors, like your offensive capabilities, which do scale to the appropriate levels assuming the math treadmill is being followed, which by RAW it should be.

I also really want to know where a character can get a 10th level innate spell from. At-best, it could be a scaled cantrip or Focus Spell, but none of those have the capacity for Wish level capabilities. Last I checked, there are no feats, ancestry or otherwise, that give you anything of that kind of power. I could be wrong, though, but I wouldn't mind an actual in-game option being shown that lets you do that.

As another point of contention, if it's an innate spell, the Save DC scales with Charisma by default, not Intelligence, meaning the Save DC will be significantly lower (by at least 1 or 2 points, depending on level-up attribute allocations), and that can be significant enough for more enemies to succeed at the expected saving throw.

[graystone]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

If we compare Familiars and Eschew Materials to feats like Twin Takedown, Sudden Charge, Raging Intimidation, etc. You'll notice that they are lacking due to not having any scaling.

With Grand Bazaar, familiars have some scaling. There are several abilities that allow it to Aid you automatically and once the PC gets to master it's an automatic crit so the aid scales from +1 to +4 with the PC [+1 Trained and Expert, +3 Master, +4 legendary]. Accompanist also scales up at master too. What is REALLY nice is a familiar with Partner in Crime, which scales up to a +4 in thievery and deception and it stacks with thieves tools: something a gnome rogue/bard could snag as an ancestry feat.

Now as far as active abilities and scaling... Yeah, a familiar doesn't have much.

[gesalt]

graystone wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

If we compare Familiars and Eschew Materials to feats like Twin Takedown, Sudden Charge, Raging Intimidation, etc. You'll notice that they are lacking due to not having any scaling.

With Grand Bazaar, familiars have some scaling. There are several abilities that allow it to Aid you automatically and once the PC gets to master it's an automatic crit so the aid scales from +1 to +4 with the PC [+1 Trained and Expert, +3 Master, +4 legendary]. Accompanist also scales up at master too. What is REALLY nice is a familiar with Partner in Crime, which scales up to a +4 in thievery and deception and it stacks with thieves tools: something a gnome rogue/bard could snag as an ancestry feat.

Now as far as active abilities and scaling... Yeah, a familiar doesn't have much.

Wouldn't familiar aid cap at +2 since even if the master's proficiency can trigger the auto crit, the familiar itself doesn't have the proficiency needed to scale the aid check?

[Debelinho]

Darksol wrote:

I also really want to know where a character can get a 10th level innate spell

Ask graystone, he was the one who stated it, I didn't really check up on that

Debelinho wrote:

graystone wrote:

I don't agree with this: Accompanist and Threat Display give the of 2+ skill feats and the various Aid feats automatically give out +2 to +4 circumstance bonuses. Innate Surge can allow you to recast a 10th level spells and Familiar Focus gets you a focus point per day. Any of these are WAY better than a 1st level feat.

all 1st level feats have the potential to wreck havoc in the hands of well built 20th lvl characters in niche situations, what's your point? That it should stay gimped at 1st lvl bonuses?

[graystone]

gesalt wrote:

Wouldn't familiar aid cap at +2 since even if the master's proficiency can trigger the auto crit, the familiar itself doesn't have the proficiency needed to scale the aid check?

The ability uses the masters skill for determining success/crit success: "if you're a master of the skill in question". As such, I used for the rest of the determination. I do see how it could be read differently now that you point it out... Well either way, it'd be scaling, just not as much the one way. It would match the scaling for Accompanist but that doesn't seem right as that is automatic while the other abilities require using Aid [spending your action, a familiar action and it's reaction] and Second Opinion requires taking the SKILLED ability too.

Debelinho wrote:

Darksol wrote:

I also really want to know where a character can get a 10th level innate spell

Ask graystone, he was the one who stated it, I didn't really check up on that

Gift of the Moon: "At 20th level, you cast a 10th-level moon frenzy instead."

[Garulo]

385 posts and we still do not have consensus.

In PFS it is pretty clear that a familiar is a rock (since they have to play by explicit RAW rules).
Home games - familiar can be anything since the GM decides what they can do.

The rules seem to say that GMs can improvise activities and that is cited as one side as "the rules" while the other side says that this is "too vague"

This argument will never end

[breithauptclan]

Ravingdork wrote:

This discussion has taken such a strange turn...

That is because regarding the familiar rules we have apparently (again) argued each other to a standstill.

Garulo wrote:

385 posts and we still do not have consensus.

In PFS it is pretty clear that a familiar is a rock (since they have to play by explicit RAW rules).

I still maintain that the ruling of 1 minute duration outside of combat is not a houserule. Currently it is an alternate interpretation of the ambiguous Minion trait rules. But PFS has to make a decision on how to run things for their games too.

And yes, if Paizo decides to issue errata for this and encodes the 2-action 6 second ruling generally, I could easily houserule it to what I want for my own games. And I would still think that this is better than leaving it vague and unspecified.

[graystone]

breithauptclan wrote:

I still maintain that the ruling of 1 minute duration outside of combat is not a houserule.

I can agree to disagree with you on a lot of things but I can't see anyplace in the rules/guidelines that'd set a duration of 1 min commanding familiars. So I can't agree on this: IMO at best it's undefined and at worst a houserule and neither of those ends up with a rule for 1 min.

And by houserule, I mean DM defined for a particular group/game: I, for instance, don't have any expectation to sit down at a random game and having the duration of 1 min more than 10 min, 1 hr or all day.

[GM OfAnything]

Garulo wrote:

In PFS it is pretty clear that a familiar is a rock (since they have to play by explicit RAW rules).

That is explicitly not the case. While PFS GMs cannot contradict the written rules, they are absolutely free to interpret ambiguous situations such as familiars in a way that makes sense for them and provides for the most fun to be had by the table.

Remember, RAI is RAW in this edition. There is no reason to be Lawful Stupid about the rules.

[Norade]

GM OfAnything wrote:

Garulo wrote:

In PFS it is pretty clear that a familiar is a rock (since they have to play by explicit RAW rules).

That is explicitly not the case. While PFS GMs cannot contradict the written rules, they are absolutely free to interpret ambiguous situations such as familiars in a way that makes sense for them and provides for the most fun to be had by the table.

Remember, RAI is RAW in this edition. There is no reason to be Lawful Stupid about the rules.

Rule 0 has existed since the dawn of TTRPGs; it doesn't change the fact that a GM running PFS games should follow RAW as closely as possible and not overpower people that pick normal-looking animal familiars.

[GM OfAnything]

There is no such thing as "RAW", that is a construct of your imagination.

PFS Organized Play Guide wrote:

GMs are encouraged to make choices which would result in the most enjoyable play experience for everyone at the table and that emphasize PCs are the heroes of the story.

GMs should not change the rules, but they are encouraged to interpret rules to provide for a fun experience for everyone. (That may mean adjusting depending on other player character's specialties)

[graystone]

GM OfAnything wrote:

GMs should not change the rules, but they are encouraged to interpret rules to provide for a fun experience for everyone. (That may mean adjusting depending on other player character's specialties)

LOL How could they change the rules when there is no RAW? :P

[Debelinho]

graystone wrote:

LOL How could they change the rules when there is no RAW? :P

LOL, true

How would you guys play out independent familiar ability? on an unsupervised familiar? does it even do anything by RAW?

[graystone]

Debelinho wrote:

How would you guys play out independent familiar ability? on an unsupervised familiar? does it even do anything by RAW

Unknown as by definition it can do as it pleases: this means if you want it to go scout out that castle, it can flip you off and go take a nap. "the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action". In essence, you jump right to what it'd do if you left it alone for a minute and "animals follow their instincts".

So it pretty much depends on whether the DM wants your familiar to give you double the activities or not. I'd have a hard time getting upset if my corgi familiar found an interesting smell and went off to find out what it was or if my cat took a nap as I'm specifically NOT telling them what to do. It might be different if they spelled out what one could do, like actual intelligence, ability to plan, attention span, ect.

As to what I'd do if I was the DM: I'd let them use whatever abilities that specifically apply in exploration they took but past that, they'd do whatever that type of animal would do. So for instance, if you took Partner in Crime or Ambassador they work fine.

[Debelinho]

graystone wrote:

Unknown as by definition it can do as it pleases: this means if you want it to go scout out that castle, it can flip you off and go take a nap. "the GM might determine that your familiar chooses its own tactics rather than performing your preferred action". In essence, you jump right to what it'd do if you left it alone for a minute and "animals follow their instincts".

So it pretty much depends on whether the DM wants your familiar to give you double the activities or not. I'd have a hard time getting upset if my corgi familiar found an interesting smell and went off to find out what it was or if my cat took a nap as I'm specifically NOT telling them what to do. It might be different if they spelled out what one could do, like actual intelligence, ability to plan, attention span, ect.

As to what I'd do if I was the DM: I'd let them use whatever abilities that specifically apply in exploration they took but past that, they'd do whatever that type of animal would do. So for instance, if you took Partner in Crime or Ambassador they work fine.

Yeah, It kinda does correspond with 2 actions per 12 seconds.

But in my example of castle flyover, I wouldn't play it as real scouting. No seeking is done, it just flies over and reports what it saw in plain sight...it just gives you different angles of a far away view. It might give you some additional information and it might not (good ol' plot scouting)

[Ravingdork]

I'm of the opinion that if the writers think a caster using familiar form can scout and sneak, I see little reason why a normal familiar couldn't likewise do the same.

[graystone]

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm of the opinion that if the writers think a caster using familiar form can scout and sneak, I see little reason why a normal familiar couldn't likewise do the same.

Familiar Form doesn't change you into a familiar, so I'm not sure what it has to do with what a familiar and minions in general can do...

"You gain the effects of the spell pest form": do the writers think a familiar has a land speed of 10' or a fly speed of 20' then?
"However, you can transform into only a bat, cat, raven, snake, or other Tiny animal of a type that you have seen serve as a spellcaster's familiar.": not you transform into a familiar.
PS: also, this line doesn't make a whole lot of sense as there isn't any prohibited Tiny animals you can make a familiar so it's only limit by what you say you've seen as a familiar and how do you figure THAT out? :P
"While in this form, despite the restrictions from polymorph battle forms": familiars do not have battle forms but do have Minion.
"you retain the ability to cast spells of 1st level or lower but only those without material components.": familiars can't cast multiple 1st level spells.

So other than the name/looks of the form, what exactly does it have to do with familiars?

[breithauptclan]

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm of the opinion that if the writers think a caster using familiar form can scout and sneak, I see little reason why a normal familiar couldn't likewise do the same.

I would also expect that a character using Pest Form or Familiar Form would also be making stealth or deception checks while doing the scouting/sneaking.

And there is still the question of how long an actual familiar will be following the command to scout/sneak. A familiar is able to make those skill checks needed for sneaking and scouting. I don't think anyone is arguing that they can't make skill checks as far as I can tell. That isn't the problem.

[The Raven Black]

You fail your sneak and they see a rat.

[breithauptclan]

A rat with a very intelligent and somewhat nervous look on its face.

Time for deception check.