Would the wrack wild talent damage a living swarm?
Wrack reads:
Wrack (Su)
At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts.
This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.
Looks like an attack that targets a single creature, so a swarm would be immune.
my kineticist-fu is lacking but if i recall correctly a normal kinaticist blast have full effect on swarms.
since this is an infusion that is added to the blast and say nothing about changing how it treat swarms i think it effect them the same. - full damage (and 50% more if adding some aoe ability to it)
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Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).
Wrack manipulate blood, not energy or mass.
And it isn't an infusion (from what I read in AoN). It is a SU ability that deals the same damage as his blast, but it didn't say in the description that it is an infusion or a blast.On the other hand, he still has a simple water blast at the first level, and that deals full damage, so I don't see any problem with swarms.
All things considered, it seems that wrack doesn't work on swarms.
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“Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).“ the elemental matter being manipulated by this ability is the swarms BLOOD. Blood contains water the basic element controlled by both blood and generic water Kineticists. “Wrack (Su): At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level FORM INFUSION that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood BLASTS. This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.” This ability CLEARLY states that it is an infusion used on a kinetic blast it boggles my mind that this is being interpreted otherwise. As far as it being an SU ability I encourage you to actually READ the Kineticist class feature for infusions. ALL infusions are SU abilities so the fact that it is an SU ability has no bearing on whether it works on swarms or not. So Wrack is an INFUSION placed on a KINETIC BLAST and will work as normal on a swarm (which by RAW is treated as a single creature for the purpose of targeting it) as long as the swarm in question actually has BLOOD.
Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).Wrack manipulate blood, not energy or mass.
And it isn't an infusion (from what I read in AoN). It is a SU ability that deals the same damage as his blast, but it didn't say in the description that it is an infusion or a blast.On the other hand, he still has a simple water blast at the first level, and that deals full damage, so I don't see any problem with swarms.
All things considered, it seems that wrack doesn't work on swarms.
i'll admit im at work and using my phone so didn't look up at the archive of nethys.
i did look at what the op quoted and the last sentence said:"This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts."
so i assumed it has the same ability as a blast unless it say otherwise.
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Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).Wrack manipulate blood, not energy or mass.
And it isn't an infusion (from what I read in AoN). It is a SU ability that deals the same damage as his blast, but it didn't say in the description that it is an infusion or a blast.On the other hand, he still has a simple water blast at the first level, and that deals full damage, so I don't see any problem with swarms.
All things considered, it seems that wrack doesn't work on swarms.
i'll admit im at work and using my phone so didn't look up at the archive of nethys.
i did look at what the op quoted and the last sentence said:"This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts."
so i assumed it has the same ability as a blast unless it say otherwise.
I missed the last row, thanks for pointing it out.
The difference between your post and Trokarr is noticeable. you pointed out my error, he vented.
Same information, but one in a useful form, the other in a not useful form.
Well I apologize Diego if I hurt your feelings. I also post from my phone while at work. I use all caps to show emphasis not to shout as its simply easier on my phone. Still it would have helped if you had read the text a little more carefully that stated it was a form infusion for kinetic blasts before posting.
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Well I apologize Diego if I hurt your feelings. I also post from my phone while at work. I use all caps to show emphasis not to shout as its simply easier on my phone. Still it would have helped if you had read the text a little more carefully that stated it was a form infusion for kinetic blasts before posting.
It takes way more to hurt my feelings. I wanted to point out the difference between writing:
i did look at what the op quoted and the last sentence said:
"This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts."
and your post, where the same information was buried in an angry tirade.
Hmm angry tirade is it? I felt no anger. Do capitol letters offend you? Actually my time resources are limited so I prefer to spend them carefully reading the relevant rules text so that I may give timely CORRECT answers rather than giving ill informed responses carefully crafted so as not to offend anyone’s delicate sensibilities. If you had read the OP’s original post as you say you did he quoted the relevant text right there. I merely assumed that you read and understood the relevant rules text and gave a response based on an incorrect understanding of the rules as written. Again please forgive my assumption I guess I should have asked if you had read the text thoroughly.
Even with the fact that it is an infusion, I am unclear why the blood kineticist will use Wrack instead of the Water simple blast or the Blood composite blast, barring very peculiar swarms with high DR.
Auto hitting vs. potentially missing for rolling low
Yeah in order for a blood kineticist to make the most of the Wrack ability you need to have as high a CON score as possible leaving very few build points (assuming a point buy build) left for DEX. As water blast is a physical blast it operates against normal AC not touch AC so at low levels when you don’t have elemental overload to buff your to-hit rolls your chance to hit will be pretty low against many opponents. Since Wrack doesn’t need an attack roll your feats that would normally be spent on Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot could better be spent on Spell Penetration feats to help get through SR.
Oh no I used some all caps in my last post sorry Diego I’m not mad and I’m not yelling at anyone ok?
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By using infusions along with her kinetic blasts, a kineticist can alter her kinetic blasts to suit her needs. Infusions come in two types, each of which changes a kinetic blast differently: a substance infusion causes an additional effect, while a form infusion causes the kinetic blast to manifest in a different way.
Some infusions change the action required to activate a kinetic blast or entirely transform the kinetic blast’s normal effects.
If the infusion changes how the blast work, making it an effect that targets a single creature, instead of a blast that requires a to hit, I am not sure that it works on a swarm.
Comparing it to the other infusions, those that require to hit with the blast say so, so wrack seems to work automatically, but then you are targeting a single creature, not an area.
It all depends on how far "entirely transform the kinetic blast’s normal effects" go when compared to "Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)."
At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside.
RAW, targeting a single creature of a swarm has no discernible effect.
Considering that the damage is halved or quartered, balance-wise there is no problem with it working.
again, i'm not totally sure i have the kineticist grasped correctly, but the normal kineticist blast also use the words 'a target' in it. so it's not really a change. (" As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet.").
id go with the other part you quoted "..so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size.." and say if it doesn't say it changed this part, then it didn't.
“ A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a SINGLE CREATURE. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a SINGLE CREATURE.” A swarm is considered a single creature for the purpose of targeting it. Wrack allows for a FORT save to halve the damage. A swarm makes this save as a single creature. There is no question that Wrack works as normal on a swarm. I only use all caps for emphasis I’m not yelling at you Diego I know how much that triggers you. Again my sincere apologies.
Nop, sorry.
a swarm is not a single creature when TARGETING . that after all has a specific rule that say they don't care. Kill 1 bug with a magic missile - there are still 99999 left.
The whole 1 save for all is for effect that doesn't target one creature, say a fireball, then the poor gm doesn't need to roll hundreds or thusends of saves.
The fact kinrticist's blast had to call out that it does work even though it shouldn't kinda point it out.
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“ A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a SINGLE CREATURE. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modifier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a SINGLE CREATURE.” A swarm is considered a single creature for the purpose of targeting it. Wrack allows for a FORT save to halve the damage. A swarm makes this save as a single creature. There is no question that Wrack works as normal on a swarm. I only use all caps for emphasis I’m not yelling at you Diego I know how much that triggers you. Again my sincere apologies.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mindaffecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
That is the basic problem when fighting swarms.
If wrack changes the blast to a targeted effect without a to hit (not so clear in the description), it targets a single creature and doesn't affect swarms.
Saying that it supersedes the to hit but not the swarm's limitation on targeting is a bit questionable. The ability could have been written better.
"If wrack changes the blast to a targeted effect without a to hit (not so clear in the description), it targets a single creature and doesn't affect swarms."
why?!?
a normal blast is also a targeted ability that should not work - it has a specific rule to overcome this.
you are favoring a general rule over a more specific one.
in general - targeted spells and effects (not weapons which have their own rules) do no effect swarms (not including mind effects etc etc).
specifically kineticist blast over-rule the general of targeting and say it does effect swarms.
you need an even more specific rule to overcome that specific rule. one that call out wrack to not be the same, and you don't have it. the fact it target without a to hit doesn't make it any different from a blast that target. to hit or not is no matter. magic missile and acid splash are both ineffective vs swarms. where did it say in the normal blast that the 'rolling to hit' mechanic is what make it effect swarms?!
this infusion say it works WITH the blast, as in, some stuff is changed but the stuff it doesn't change stay the same. and since it say nothing about revoking the specific rule of 'blast effect swarm' that stay until called out otherwise.
you can not use 'but it's a TARGETED effect' here since so is a blast which is an exception to this rule.
a blast is a mass of matter that can effect a swarm because it effect more then one member of a swarm? id say the wrack does the same - effect the blood of more then one when aimed at a swarm.
why would blast that has 'to hit' work while wrack not? on what grounds do you remove the blast's ability to ignore the 'target immune' out of wrack, if it's just because it doesn't roll to hit the target then you picked general over specific ruling without anything to back it.
take this as an example:
in general animals with thin fur are damaged by cold wind.
bunnies have white thin fur, but even though they have thin fur they don't take damage from cold wind since they hop a lot.
there is a specific kind of bunny with brown thin fur. beside having brown fur they are the same as bunnies.
would you say the brown bunny take cold wind damage?
you'd need an additional data such as brown bunnies do not hop for this to work. pointing to the fact brown bunnies have thin fur and should take damage from cold wind doesn't change it from other bunnies. since it was never the fur that protected the bunny from the cold to start with!
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The problem is the even more specific rule of Wrack.
1) It doesn't say that it removes the requirement for a to hit.
2) it doesn't say that it removes the ability of a blast to affect a swarm.
If we accept that wrack changes the attack process of the blast, we have no reason to say that it changes only part of it and it maintains the other aspects of the attack process.
It is a big if as wrack never say that it automatically hit. It is based on "a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target". But to do that the kineticist needs to select a target. A target is a single creature in the swarm, not the swarm. So the swarm is not affected, only one of the creatures composing it.
Disintegrate, the classic spell that does nothing to swarms, affects a 10' cube of nonliving matter, but only a single creature.
Wrack does the same, it targets a single creature that is part of the swarm, not the whole swarm.
When you change the targeting parameters of the ability, you change all the ability, not only a piece of it.
If wrack doesn't change the attack process, it affects a swarm, but it requires a to hit.
and magic missile need to no hit and yet is still ineffective. your missing the whole point. even a normal blast would be ineffective if it didn't say it's still effective due to the large amount of mass used to attack. and guess what? blood is a mass. in single it's a blood cell.
and before you say, but it's the blood of a single person id say but the blast hit a single person. poteto potato. they both manipulate mass to damage:
there you had a mass that deal damage so it effect the whole swarm, here you have a mass that deal damage so it should effect the whole swarm - nothing in that changed!
so what if the targeting changed? the original was also targeting. it was never the targeting that allowed the blast to hit the swarm in the first place! and trying to say, oh no this is a different kind of targeting so it's a whole new thing. without any backing .even though you DO have it say right there that this is STILL A BLAST which, by your own quote "always deal full damage to swarms"!
the targeting one was never the REASON behind it effecting a swarm so changing that part has no reason what so ever to suddenly effect what was never tied to it to begin with!
bunnies hop has nothing to so with bunnies have thin fur. (beside being related to the bunny.)
for working on swarms - straight answer, i don't know nor care. nor should it even matter. the way it is delivered isn't an issue that matter for if its ability to bypass swarm immunity work or not.
i'll leave it up to the gm but if it were me id say it depend what blast your using with it. if it is a physical one its a normal ranged attack, if energy then touch (not going into what type water and blood get, didn't look it up).
again the same as with the rule for blast effect swarm, since no mention was made to how this work it stay the same as the base blast it infused, until it is said to be different. you only change what it say it change. in this case the way it look, the damage dealt & it's type and the dr bypass.
not it doesn't since even BEFORE the infusion it targeted a single target..
saying now it target a single target so it's different then before is..not really reading up on what was before.
before : a single target ranged to hit effect that ignored the fact swarm ignore single target.
after : maybe a non to hit ranged effect that target a single target. still has the SAME REASON to ignore said swarm ability...
changing it from to hit to auto target doesn't change the fact that ETHER should be ineffective against a swarm and since the reason the base effect a swarm is something other then the targeting method and that didn't change. it stay the same AFTER the infusion take place.
the way i see it:
- physical blasts target a single target normal ac. they damage swarms that should be immune to it, since blasts ""always deal full damage to swarms"
- energy blasts target a single target touch ac. they damage swarms that should be immune to it, since blasts ""always deal full damage to swarms"
- Wrack infusion blast target a single target (maybe with to hit maybe not. not a factor) it too damages swarms that should be immune to it, since it is also a blast and nothing say it lose the ability that blast have = blasts ""always deal full damage to swarms"
changing from a single target ranged to hit\ranged touch to hit into single target with no to hit doesn't change the ability to ignore the swarms immunity to single target effects. all three should have been an effect swarms ignore and all 3 are blasts that say: 'haha i use massive amount of mass so i effect even swarms! changing from a single target to hit effect to a single target save effect does nothing to alter the rest.
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Let's start with a different example of something that changes how an ability works, and then go tho how the same example work wit wrack.
Touch attacks can be held until they are delivered.
If we cast them using the reach metamagic they are changed to ranged touch attack and can't be held anymore.
A normal blast is a ranged attack that counts as a weapon for the purposes of feats and it can target the swarm as a whole.
The wrack infusion, as all infusions, can change that completely (it is in the infusion descriptions).
Wrack change the blast making it a targeted spell-like effect, moving it to the rules about targeted spells and spell-like effects.
The moment in which it becomes a targeted spell-like effect it becomes subject to the limits imposed by targeting a single creature, i.e. "A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures".
It doesn't matter anymore how much matter or energy you are bringing to bear, you are targeting it against a single creature of the swarm.
problem. when the blast say it effect swarms it doesn't say anything about it being a weapon to do so. it call out the massive amount of mass for that. so pining it on being a weapon-like or not is something you just made up.
in fact the whole sentence should point that it is not it's weapon like nature that is a factor:
"Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)"
how many weapons do you know that normally do aoe damage? (and not specific ones like bombs which need it's own rules to work).
now lets look at the wrack infusion.
is it still a blast?
yes
does it involve a sizeable mass of matter or energy? id say yes since it effect blood which by plain English is plural. and nothing in the infusion quantify it to be lesser then a normal blast in that aspect.
last point. to remove the normal blast ability you need the infusion to say so, and it doesn't. until it does all that change is how the effect is delivered. before it was a single target that shouldn't effect a swarm but does. and it stay a single target effect that shouldn't effect a swarm, now where does it say it doesn't effect? - oh back in the GENERAL swarm ability? but that was changed when we went into blasts. and didn't change back. it is still a blast weather it's from inside the creature with no to hit or from outside with one.
I think it is clear as day wrack auto hits.
“At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts.
This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.”
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I think it is clear as day wrack auto hits.
“At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts.
This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.”
But then it follows the rules about targeting Spell-like abilities. It doesn't change only the convenient parts.
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I think it is clear as day wrack auto hits.
“At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts.
This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.”
auto hit, requires targeting a creature.
swarms cant be targeted as a single creature.the regular blast has wording that lets it blast a swarm, but this doesn't.
no attack roll = not a valid target
No no no.
Swarms can be targeted as a single creature. Even with spell. The whole fear effect working if they have a mind show that. targeting was never invalid! Beeing immune does not mean you can't be targeted. It just mean the effect is negated.
Its just not effective since if you use a single target effect normally youd get one out of hondred or more to little effect.
You allways target the swarm as a whole- that is in the rules you qouted. Be it when attacking with a weapon or spell. Unless its an area spell. It just that how effective said targeting depend on the size of the swarm members in case of weapon or effect in case of other things.
Even with the blast its the same- you dont target a single spider in the swarm - you target the whole swarm. The blast massiv mass make that effect work on enough members of the swarm to do full damage. And negate it's immunity or damage reduction.
Now with wrack again you target the blood of the swarm Not an individual swarm member. But unlike, say magic missile that would effect one member and be done with, the wrack is STILL A BLAST thus it target the blood of more the one member in said swarm.
You are mixing invalude target with ineffective effect of the target.
Attacking a swarm with normal targted effect is ineffective normaly. Not invalid
Using blasts, and wrack say it is still one, prove to be effective that is all!
Just replace the word 'target' with 'swarm' and you will see how it all fall together.
"At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a swarm within 30 feet, harming the swarm by manipulating its blood from the inside..etc."
now remmember its still a blast and unless say otherwise use the blast's rules (manupilating a sizeable amount of blood in this case). What do you get?
You Cant go back and say 'you cant target the swarm since its immune to target effects, so a blast ability to negate said immunity doesnt work' anymore then you can say 'its a swarm of diminutive creatures who are immune to weapons so a normal blast which is a weapon is invalid'
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No no no.
Swarms can be targeted as a single creature. Even with spell. The whole fear effect working if they have a mind show that. targeting was never invalid! Beeing immune does not mean you can't be targeted. It just mean the effect is negated.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mindaffecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.
I fail to see how having a hive mind matters when someone manipulates blood.
You allways target the swarm as a whole- that is in the rules you qouted. Be it when attacking with a weapon or spell. Unless its an area spell. It just that how effective said targeting depend on the size of the swarm members in case of weapon or effect in case of other things.
A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature. A swarm has the characteristics of its type, except as noted here. A swarm has a single pool of Hit Dice and hit points, a single initiative modi fier, a single speed, and a single Armor Class. A swarm makes saving throws as a single creature.
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A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 non flying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 non flying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are fying or not.
A swarm saves as one creature, not as X creatures with less than 1 HS, but it never says it is targeted as one creature by spell or effects that target a specific number of creatures. It goes a long way to imply the opposite.
Just replace the word 'target' with 'swarm' and you will see how it all fall together.
Yes, by changing words you can get a lot of interesting results in a lot of rules. That doesn't make it the right way to do things.
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You Cant go back and say 'you cant target the swarm since its immune to target effects, so a blast ability to negate said immunity doesnt work' anymore then you can say 'its a swarm of diminutive creatures who are immune to weapons so a normal blast which is a weapon is invalid'
If we go with the "you can't"arguments, you can't take something that changes how a power works and go halfway, saying "whatever I don't like to be changed isn't changed".
Making it a targeted power that targets "a creature" changes the targeting parameters.
As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet.
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Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms)
Attacks a single target, deals full damage to swarms
At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside.
Targets a single creature. Changes the targeting parameters to a different set of rules. Doesn't say anything about still harming swarms. It says clearly that it manipulates the blood of a single creature. The blood of a bug isn't a sizeable mass.
"Targets a single creature. Changes the targeting parameters to a different set of rules."
the normal blast also say it target a single creature.
you still fail to prove that the wrack (which we both agree IS A BLAST) lose the normal blast ability of dealing full damage to swarms.
pointing out that it turn into something else swarms should be immune to doesn't remove said ability. when you fire a blast at a single spider of a spider swarm. without the blast ability it should end with a notice 'immune' popping above it' head. the blast ability negate that immunity
wrack is a blast. when it target the swarm - and yes it target the swarm - it need to make a save and you said it yourself - it makes saves as a single creature. it's not one spider who make a save it's the WHOLE SWARM that does - so it's the WHOLE swarm's blood that is effected.
said 'immune' won't pop since the same ability to negate it is still in effect and nothing was done to remove it.
a spider swarm is immune to both weapons and targeted spells. why would a blast that target a to hit as a weapon will effect it since it manipulate sizable amount of X and a blast that target it without a to hit that also (unless proved otherwise) manipulate a sizeable amount of x do not? (remember the whole swarm makes the saves so it's whole blood should be what is effected not a single spider, it's not a single spider that make the saves is it?)
“ Kinetic Blast (Sp): At 1st level, a kineticist gains a kinetic blast wild talent of her choice. This kinetic blast must be a simple blast that matches her element. As a standard action, the kineticist can unleash a kinetic blast at a single target up to a range of 30 feet. She must have at least one hand free to aim the blast (or one prehensile appendage, if she doesn’t have hands). All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion on page 12), and she can’t use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms). A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor. A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor. The various kinetic blasts, as well as additional rules for simple blasts, are described on pages 15–16.” “ Wrack (Su): At 1st level, a blood kineticist can use her abilities to wrack a target within 30 feet, harming the target by manipulating its blood from the inside. The target takes half the normal damage of the blood kineticist’s blast, and can attempt a Fortitude save to reduce that amount to 1/4 normal damage, but the damage is untyped and ignores damage reduction. This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with water and blood blasts. This ability replaces the 1st-level infusion.” Not once does the word CREATURE ever appear in these two sets or rules text let alone single creature. Diego you have either misread the relevant rules text….again, or you have inserted the term to bolster your argument hoping no-one would notice. The relevant rules text only refers to a TARGET. Are you claiming that swarms can not be targeted?
He's point is that once you do not count the blast as a weapon-like effect but more like a spell-like effect that auto target with no to hit, it stops being considered as a normal blast, including the blast ability to ignore immunity and default back to be like any other targeted spell effect that the swarm should be immune. since blowing up one bug's blood hardly effect the swarm as whole.
my point was that A, as this is still a blast you need specific words to remove said ability to negate immunity of swarms
and B, the swarms make a save as a whole entity and as this effect is a save for half effect then before immunity comes into play it target the whole swarm. and as such since it's still a blast should not lose it's auto negate swarm's immunity ability even if the method of delivering the effect changes. since the reason for negating this immunity lays in the massive amount of element\energy used, which stay the same here as well.(we're not targeting blood of a single creature but the blood of potentially every creature in the swarm)
also Trokarr, while i appreciate the support, i would like to ask you to please keep this debate at a professional level. There is no call to use snide remarks.
I have a level 7 blood kineticist in pfs play, and have also played about a dozen others. I have played in 5 different states, at 12 different conventions run by 7 different venture captains. This has never been an issue. Kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms. Wrack is an infusion to the blast. Ergo, wrack does full damage. Now, if you want to mess with your interpretation of targets/swarm/creatures etc, cool, thats on you. However, ALWAYS doesn't change. Swarms are always targeted as a single creature as well, whether or not the effect does anything. I.E. a Swarm of wolves (yes this can exist) would take damage from a single sword strike, meaning they can be targeted as a single entity, thus that entire arguement point is moot. Wrack=Infusion=Blast=Full damage to swarm barring the dc reduction against ability. Fin.
My apologies to all bad form on my part. Bad form. I will endeavour to keep a level head henceforth.
I have a level 7 blood kineticist in pfs play, and have also played about a dozen others. I have played in 5 different states, at 12 different conventions run by 7 different venture captains. This has never been an issue. Kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms. Wrack is an infusion to the blast. Ergo, wrack does full damage. Now, if you want to mess with your interpretation of targets/swarm/creatures etc, cool, thats on you. However, ALWAYS doesn't change. Swarms are always targeted as a single creature as well, whether or not the effect does anything. I.E. a Swarm of wolves (yes this can exist) would take damage from a single sword strike, meaning they can be targeted as a single entity, thus that entire arguement point is moot. Wrack=Infusion=Blast=Full damage to swarm barring the dc reduction against ability. Fin.
Yep; Blasts always deal full damage to swarms. Blasts are a single target spell -like ability that will hit a swarm. In this case, swarms can be targeted as a single entity as they are considered a single creature with the swarm subtype (for the purposes of Kinetic Blasts and other specific rules defined by RAW only.) Form Infusions do not change the core rule of Blasts unless specifically noted (except in the case of changing target parameters, such as in the case of AoE Form Infusions.) And all abilities of the Blood Kineticist are Wild Talents described in their replacement entries as either Infusion or Utility Talent and what their Burn costs are.
Otherwise you follow the specifics of each Infusion entry, so 'full damage' with Wrack to a swarm would be 1/2 normal blast damage or 1/4 normal blast damage on a successful Fort save. However, if the swarm does not have blood, Wrack will not function as per Blood Kineticist's entry.
This is quite literally a case of specific over general. Kineticist has a specific rule that supersedes the generic rule of swarms "no single target" ability, which is still not altered or superseded by Infusions unless another specific rule or interaction is distinguished (such as in the case of Foe Throw, which calls out a seperate targeting parameter of only functioning Large or smaller creatures.]
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To a blood kineticist, the water in a creature’s blood is just like any other sort, and she uses that knowledge to brutal ends.
Blood Focus (Ex): A blood kineticist must choose water as her primary element and must choose water blast as her first simple blast. All of her infusions granted by this archetype work only on targets with blood and automatically fail if the target is immune to bleed damage.
Effectively, Wrack will work against a container full of blood. :-D
But barring that exception, it can't be used against an object.
well there is also one swarm we all should agree that is immune to the wrack infused blast. it is summoned by this spell
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Archon Swarm, Mote Archon Swarm
Thousands of golden lights form a cloud, swirling gracefully around one another. Each light in the cloud is a glowing rune no bigger than a thumbnail.Granule Construct Swarm
A faint buzz fills the air as a dark cloud of smoke or dust gathers out of nowhere, swiling amorphously, then suddenly darts forward with purpose.Warden Jack Swarm
Warden Jack Swarm CR 4
Source Pathfinder #121: The Lost Outpost pg. 44
XP 1,200
N Fine construct (swarm)...
Etc.
There are several swarms that don't have blood.
It is interesting to note that a swarm can suffer bleeding damage. A bit strange, as it means that each one of thousands of creatures is bleeding a little bit instead of a single creature bleeding from a wound, but if you find a way to apply the effect they will bleed. Weyrd.