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I'm building a character for a campaign and want to see if there is any advice or issues with what I'm trying to do. Some of this is a little murky to me, Coming in at level 12. I appreciate any insight, general advice, rules problems with what I'm doing, or clarifications.
Human Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain) Level 12
Dual-wielding a heavy steel shield in one hand, and a buckler in the other hand. FCB going towards more feats.
Campaign Notes
We are getting bonus teamwork feats in addition to below, but I'm not as concerned with this right now as it will depend on rest of party.
Campaign rule that weapon specific feats apply to all weapons in fighter group.
Probably going to be a tougher campaign with craziness (one player's got a super juiced up Eidolon). Myself and the Eidolon are going to be serving on the front line.
My thoughts were to use the Dual Enhancement feat to enchant the weapon side of both shields at once, and then throw that bonus to Guardian and Defending every round.
Then use Shield Master to attack with the shield side of the shields. Add things like Holy to one of the shields as needed to bypass DR.
Starting Stats (post racial):[/b]
14/17/14/12/14/7
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha
Level ups all go into Dexterity (20 dex base at 12).
Traits
Fate's Favored (Faith)
Shield Bearer (Race)
Feats (F indicates the fighter feats)
1) Improved Shield Bash
1) Weapon Focus Shields
1) Two-Weapon Fighting
3) Upsetting Shield Style
3F) Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Grace) (Retrained into at level 5)
5) Combat Reflexes
6) Upsetting Strike
6F) Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon)
7) Upsetting Vengeance
7) Quicken Blessing (Archetype)
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9F) Advanced Weapon Training (Fighter Tactics) (Retrained into at 11th level?)
11) Dual Enhancement
12) Shield Slam
12F) Shield Master
Possible Future Feats:
Shield Focus & Stumbling Bash
Divine Interference
Noteworthy Potential Equipment (available wealth is currently unknown)
Gloves of Dueling
Ring of Tactical Precision
Mithral Heavy Steel Shield (+3 Shield side, +1 Defending Weapon)
Adamantine Buckler (+2 Shield side, +1 Guardian Weapon)
Mithral Nimble Full-Plate
Big 6 items (Belt of Physical Perfection +2), baubles, and scrolls
Some general questions/concerns/confusion I have
1) I'm not super clear on shield being double enchanted, at one point I was under the impression that I needed the armor spikes to get the weapon also, but then I've seen posts which seem to suggest that you don't need weapon spikes to enchant a shield both ways (this matters both from a cost stand point and for the buckler).
2) Either way, if I wanted to, I could enchant one of the shields to be a +10 shield and a +10 weapon (+5 enhancement/+5 abilities in both cases) if I really wanted to, is that correct?
3) Also not sure if it makes sense to add either shield spikes or the Bashing property to the heavy steel shield? Original thought was maybe shield spikes, but not sure if this is worth it?
4) If I shield bash with the heavy steel shield using Shield Master, but put holy on the weapon side of it, does the shield bash count as benefiting from the enchantment?
Thank you in advance.
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Some general questions/concerns/confusion I have
1) I'm not super clear on shield being double enchanted, at one point I was under the impression that I needed the armor spikes to get the weapon also, but then I've seen posts which seem to suggest that you don't need weapon spikes to enchant a shield both ways (this matters both from a cost stand point and for the buckler).
You can enchant a regular light or heavy shield as a weapon. You don't have to buy the spiked version. Note that you cannot make shield bash attacks with a tower shield or a buckler unless you have an ability that allows you to (Upsetting Shield Style takes care of this, but see #5).
2) Either way, if I wanted to, I could enchant one of the shields to be a +10 shield and a +10 weapon (+5 enhancement/+5 abilities in both cases) if I really wanted to, is that correct?
Sure, if you've got over 300,000 gold sitting around.
3) Also not sure if it makes sense to add either shield spikes or the Bashing property to the heavy steel shield? Original thought was maybe shield spikes, but not sure if this is worth it?
Not really worth it. Thanks to Sacred Weapon your shield is already doing 1d6 damage regardless of whether it's a spiked shield or not. Bashing would make that 1d8, but that won't matter once you get AWT (Focused Weapon) (but see #7). Talk with your GM about whether bashing would stack with Sacred Weapon. The majority opinion is no but there is debate about what the word "base" means in the Sacred Weapon ability text.
4) If I shield bash with the heavy steel shield using Shield Master, but put holy on the weapon side of it, does the shield bash count as benefiting from the enchantment?
Yes. Say you have a heavy steel shield that is +4 (shield) and +1 holy (weapon). Normally if you made a shield bash it would be +1 holy. Shield Master lets you add your shield enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus. It doesn't overwrite the existing abilities. Though since it is an enhancement bonus, you only take the better of the two and you end up with a +4 holy attack.
Other notes
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5) Upsetting Shield Style, like all style feats, takes a swift action to activate. Warpriests tend to want to use a lot of swift actions. Sacred weapon is a swift. Sacred armor is a swift. Fervorcasting and self-Fervorhealing are swift. If you're set on the Upsetting Style path, go for it. Otherwise you may want to consider taking Quick Draw instead and using a light steel quickdraw shield instead of a buckler.
6) Couple of problems with Trained Grace. First, you have to have the Weapon Finesse feat to take it at all. Second, you can't finesse a heavy shield so usually if you are going this route you want to use two light shields.
7) You appear to have taken the Advanced Weapon Training feat too many times. You can only take it once per 5 fighter levels. However note that with your 9th level Weapon Training increase you can take an AWT instead of another weapon group.
8) You said you are putting your FCB towards feats, but I don't see where you have chosen them. Greater TWF could be useful at 12th level.
9) You don't have Power Attack. Alternatively, if you do go with two light shields, you could use Piranha Strike instead.
10) That campaign rule of "weapon specific feats apply to all weapons in fighter group" is crazy.
Something to note... Since Bucklers can't normally be used to shield bash they are ineligible for weapon enchantment the same way they are ineligible for shield spikes... however... there is a nice little work around with the Folding Shield enchantment on a Light or Heavy Shield... You can then enchant that shield as a weapon and use the folding enchantment to turn it into a weapon enchanted buckler.
A bit of an argument to Belafon's note #5... Style feats don't have any durations to their stances which does give you plenty of time enter the style stance long before combat begins thus never actually eating up your swift actions... So really their concern over swift action economy is unnecessary...
about what "Belafon" mentioned about heavy shields being one handed weapons and not light (and the fact you use a heavy shield and a buckler to fight.)
if your not against Gorum as your god, i would recommend switching your trait of shield bearer into Shield Trained this would make heavy should count as light weapons for you, so 2 weapon fighting (before shield master which remove the penalties of non light waepon off hand) would be easier. and you can use 2 heavy shields without the need for a buckler.
this would save on feats as you must pick a specific weapon for feats like weapon focus (as in heavy shield\light shield) you can pick bucklers or tower shields only if you get an ability to use them as weapons.
-you picked weapon focus (shields) but the feat ask for specific weapon not a group.
also also. if using two shields (and not a shield and buckler which help casting spells) i'd advice getting a clawhand shield for one hand as this would help casting spells without dropping your shield. and it have other benefits.
Another option, and it is something I used for a TWF Shield Warpriest; Shieldbearer archetype.
Now I know it does not stack with Arsenal Champion but it is a very good option
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A bit of an argument to Belafon's note #5... Style feats don't have any durations to their stances which does give you plenty of time enter the style stance long before combat begins thus never actually eating up your swift actions... So really their concern over swift action economy is unnecessary...
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.
It is clearly intended that you can only be in a style feat while in combat. The people who argue otherwise look at this passage and say "yeah, you can't start a style until combat begins but it doesn't explicitly say that the style ends when combat ends. So you just have to use one swift action in your first combat and then walk around in your style the rest of the day. Or better yet spar with an ally for a round when you first wake up. Actually, it doesn't say it ends when you sleep, either, so if you were in combat three weeks ago you can still be in the style."
It would be entirely pointless to have the "you cannot use a style feat before combat begins" language in there if you could completely ignore it by cleverly exploiting a loophole and saying "ha-ha, they forgot to make it end!"
im one who thinks actions should be allowed to be done out of combat. the simple example is an ambush. the one in ambush ready an action before the combat start, some snipers wait hours for he right shot. if you can't use action before combat any ambush is kinda moot, or highly complex thing. and even animals can do an ambush.
also style feats..the guy need to learn to use them sometime .does he have to start combat every time he need to train his horse stance? this break the whole concept of training alone.
also also. casting spells before combat. if you have no actions before combat start - how do you cast something like mage armor before going into the dark cave?
i don't think style feats should continue after combat unless the player specifically state he stay in them - and then he walk funny.
i do think you should be able to start any action you are capable of even outside of combat if you really want to.
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about what "Belafon" mentioned about heavy shields being one handed weapons and not light (and the fact you use a heavy shield and a buckler to fight.)
if your not against Gorum as your god, i would recommend switching your trait of shield bearer into Shield Trained this would make heavy should count as light weapons for you, so 2 weapon fighting (before shield master which remove the penalties of non light waepon off hand) would be easier. and you can use 2 heavy shields without the need for a buckler.
I am assuming that the reason DinosaursOnIce is using a buckler as one of his shields is so that he can cast spells with somatic components without having to use actions to stow and retrieve one of his two heavy shields. The Shield Trained feat lets you count a heavy shield as a light weapon (good for finessing and TWF) but doesn't remove the limitation against using that hand for somatic components.
this would save on feats as you must pick a specific weapon for feats like weapon focus (as in heavy shield\light shield) you can pick bucklers or tower shields only if you get an ability to use them as weapons.
-you picked weapon focus (shields) but the feat ask for specific weapon not a group.
Note that in the original post, this campaign has a rule that "weapon specific feats apply to all weapons in fighter group" so Dinosaurs doesn't really have to specify which shield. Weapon Focus (light shield) gets him Weapon Focus with all shields.
also also. if using two shields (and not a shield and buckler which help casting spells) i'd advice getting a clawhand shield for one hand as this would help casting spells without dropping your shield. and it have other benefits.
The problem with the clawhand shield is that it is a magic item with unique properties. Most groups do not allow you to add permanent magic properties (like making it a +3, +4 or +5 shield) to such items because it isn't clear how to disentangle the costs. If your group does allow it, it's a good buy.
It'd be good to know if style feats are meant to be active out of combat. A few seem as if they were intended for out of combat use.
Swift Iron Style: lowers armor check penalty. Or swift sprint, which lets you not take a movement penalty when not moving.
Dragonfly Style: Wisdom to acrobatics. Or Dragonfly Flight, which lets you glide a distance.
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Thanks everyone for the feedback.
Updated list below. Dropped the Buckler Style due to action economy and feats. Switched two two Mithral shields, a heavy and a QuickDraw.
I'm a little concerned on being able to cast spells (that was the purpose of the buckler), my thoughts are I can drop Amy big normal spells at the beginning before I draw my QuickDraw. But there is some uncertainty beyond that (not counting for fervor). Will have a backup shield in case I need to drop one to cast.
I'm getting 6 bonus teamwork feats by level 12 (which is why the Fighter Tactics at 10 and no scaling weapon damage (yet)). Going to assume that AWT doesn't happen naturally, but if GM approves it, then that will be nice.
I'm skipping Power Attack for the moment. Is that a contentious decision?
Right now I have myself retraining into Greater TWF with my 6th level feat, and that is before I get Improved, I'm thinking that doesn't work?
Is there an efficient way to have Greater TWF and Shield Master by 12, and 2x AWT (from feats)? Otherwise will drop Greater TWF for Lunge or Missile Shield.
Traits
Fate's Favored (Faith)
Shield Trained (Religion, Gorum) (I actually meant this trait the first time but got it mixed up)
Feats (F indicates the fighter feats)
1) Improved Shield Bash
1) Weapon Focus Shields
1) Weapon Finesse
3) Two-Weapon Fighting
3F) Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Grace) (Retrained into at level 5)
5) Shield Focus
6) Combat Stamina
6F) Greater TWF (retrain 11)
7) Stumbling Bash
7) Quicken Blessing (Archetype)
9) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9F) Advanced Weapon Training (Fighter Tactics, Retrain 10)
11) Dual Enhancement
12) Shield Slam
12F) Shield Master
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I'm a little concerned on being able to cast spells (that was the purpose of the buckler), my thoughts are I can drop Amy big normal spells at the beginning before I draw my QuickDraw. But there is some uncertainty beyond that (not counting for fervor). Will have a backup shield in case I need to drop one to cast.
That's why I would take the Quick Draw feat. Then you can put on -or- stow your quickdraw shield as a free action, allowing you to stow, cast, and put your shield back on but only use the action for casting.
I'm getting 6 bonus teamwork feats by level 12 (which is why the Fighter Tactics at 10 and no scaling weapon damage (yet)).
Have you talked to your teammates yet? If everyone is getting bonus teamwork feats they may want to coordinate them. In which case you would either not need Fighter Tactics or be the one person who is not "being a team player."
Going to assume that AWT doesn't happen naturally, but if GM approves it, then that will be nice.
What do you mean that "AWT doesn't happen naturally?" The Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain gains Weapon Training, as per the fighter class feature. And at 9th level instead of choosing a second weapon group for Weapon Training you can choose an Advanced Weapon Training. PFS put in a special rule that the MAC couldn't do that, but that was campaign specific. Given the overall power level of your game, I'd be surprised if your GM put in that custom rule as well.
I'm skipping Power Attack for the moment. Is that a contentious decision?
I would probably trade Shield Focus for Quick Draw and Stumbling Bash for Power Attack. That's not the only right answer but it's what I would do.
Right now I have myself retraining into Greater TWF with my 6th level feat, and that is before I get Improved, I'm thinking that doesn't work?
That works, but only because you are "retraining" that 6th level feat at level 11. After you got Improved TWF at 9th, so you meet the prerequisites at 11.
I'm a little concerned on being able to cast spells (that was the purpose of the buckler),.You want Shielded Mage to qualify for somantic components, and you will want your shields/armour to be a reliquary to manipulate your Divine focus