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I think the writers are at least somewhat aware of the flaws with Torag and the dwarves - between the king of Dongun Hold wanting to apologize to the orcs of Belkzen and the brief mention of Arcadian dwarves and orcs getting along, I think there are definitely voices on the creative team that see the need to break away from the genocidal tradition there.
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I feel like a big thing a lot of people are missing about Torag is that Torag would very much like the various Dwarven people's to get off their butts and fix their own situations much more than he wants them to "go forth and win glory for their people."
It's just that the Five Kings Mountain Dwarves have made a mess of things, unlike the Dwarves of Dongun Hold, the M'Beke, and the Taralu (and probably other Dwarves elsewhere we don't know about.) Plenty of Dwarven people are thriving, and Torag is glad for that.
It's entirely possible that Torag views Avistan as kind of a backwater.
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I mean, Erastil's major flaw is probably that he's slow to accept change even when it's good change. Even in small, rural, tight-knit communities there are going to be innovations that improve people's lives- once upon a time there was no seed drill, and then someone invented one. The seed drill is of value to people in farming communities because it helps you farm better. Erastil's nature is that he's going to be suspicious of novelty or innovation, which inhibits communities thriving to the extent that they can.
Torag's major flaw is that he's reactive and unforgiving.
Iomedae's major flaw is that she's new at this and probably overcompensating (Aroden had very big shoes to fill).
Desna's major flaw is that she's impulsive to a degree that is only available to higher forms of existence.
Cayden is reckless.
Sarenrae's major flaw is lack of self-control when she's genuinely passionate about something.
Shelyn can be accused of being somewhat unserious at times, or at least having weird priorities.
et cetera
You can do this for all the good gods, but the point is that the good gods have flaws that are like "personality and relationship problems" akin to the deities in classical myths and not like "actively believe and advocate for things which are harmful or destructive" because if they did that, they wouldn't be the Good gods.
Honestly, I think the thread probably should've ended with this very good post. There are interesting flaws to be discussed for all the Good aligned deities we have detailed information on - absolutely no-one is arguing that all of these deities should always behave perfectly in every moment of their existence. I'd hope we all understand that there are some activities that are horrific enough that no deity should be able to perform them and stay Good aligned. Exactly where that boundary will fall differs for each of us, but if your line allows for the Good aligned deity to not only individually commit misogynistic acts but doctrinally encourage advancing systemic forms of silencing and violence against women, I think that says more about you than it does about any part of the setting. Thankfully, you'd also be disagreeing with those who create the setting.
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Yeah I think generally the good gods should, and do, have flaws (that cabbage did note a while ago), but those flaws probably shouldn't be things like hating a certain group of people for existing. Likewise, I do think evil gods should have positive traits, if only because I enjoy an archdevil having the anathema of betraying a lover because he loves his wife.
This reminded me of a common opinion among actors that playing the villain (or even anti-hero) is more intriguing than playing the exemplary hero. Villains get to have more shading, might rationalize their evil as good (or "necessary", "practical", etc.), might even be mostly good, yet irredeemably evil in a specific context. Meanwhile, a good hero has to be good throughout, and that lacks the range of flavors. It doesn't take much evil to ruin the purity. Which of course is why many good guys have flaws that don't necessarily reflect on their essence, more on their situation, i.e. tragic backstories or down-on-their-luck.
It's interesting to look at the trends in cinema as they oscillate between different types of heroes, i.e. Ted Lasso will likely spark a resurgence for that flavor.|
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Do you usually resent being told what to do, how you should do it, just because of tradition ? Do you tend to be suspicious of the system, the powers that be, or any structure of power that comes from outside : you're Chaotic.
Do you care about other people and actively try to protect them from harm even if it costs you something : you're Good.
There are so many models of morality / personality out there. Alignment is not even the worse culprit for putting people in boxes.
Primarily because it encourages total war with no thought as to how that might affect the enemies of your people's dependents. Or what might happen when two followers of Torag fight.Enemies of your people is not racist per se. Doubly so since, Torag being Good, it means no innocent will ever be considered an enemy of his followers' people, no matter their Ancestry. In fact a follower of Torag can be from any Ancestry. How does this make Torag racist ?Callibourc, would you care to list all the traits of bigotry that you feel allow someone to to partake in and encourage that aren't Evil? Because you definitely can't.I mean... Torag's pretty racist.I do not think it does though. Torag is more about protection than agression. And LG should always care about consequences.
And why would two followers of Torag ever fight unless tricked ? And as soon as they see that their opponent also follows Torag, they should negotiate a way out. Torag is not Gorum.
And all this has nothing to do with racism.
With respect to that last, Torag has a unique race that he created that worships him above all others. While others certainly may follow Torag, there is always going to be a weirdness there is going to be a quiet hierarchy. And yes, two followers of Torag can and will fight, sometimes to the death. They are still mortal and may have a very good reason to fight that falls outside of Torag's auspices. In terms of protection vs aggression, man, the code provided does not back that up at all. Scattering them to the four winds is only going to create a new generation of people who hate Torag's followers over and over and over again.
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With respect to that last, Torag has a unique race that he created that worships him above all others. While others certainly may follow Torag, there is always going to be a weirdness there is going to be a quiet hierarchy. And yes, two followers of Torag can and will fight, sometimes to the death. They are still mortal and may have a very good reason to fight that falls outside of Torag's auspices. In terms of protection vs aggression, man, the code provided does not back that up at all. Scattering them to the four winds is only going to create a new generation of people who hate Torag's followers over and over and over again.Primarily because it encourages total war with no thought as to how that might affect the enemies of your people's dependents. Or what might happen when two followers of Torag fight.Enemies of your people is not racist per se. Doubly so since, Torag being Good, it means no innocent will ever be considered an enemy of his followers' people, no matter their Ancestry. In fact a follower of Torag can be from any Ancestry. How does this make Torag racist ?Callibourc, would you care to list all the traits of bigotry that you feel allow someone to to partake in and encourage that aren't Evil? Because you definitely can't.I mean... Torag's pretty racist.I do not think it does though. Torag is more about protection than agression. And LG should always care about consequences.
And why would two followers of Torag ever fight unless tricked ? And as soon as they see that their opponent also follows Torag, they should negotiate a way out. Torag is not Gorum.
And all this has nothing to do with racism.
I get it. You refer the PF1 code.
I left those behind in favor of the PF2 edicts and anathema. Those feel far cleaner to me (for all deities, not only Torag), and more consistent with a setting where Paladins are just the LG Champions, Antipaladins the CE ones, and deities have worshippers' alignments as well as Divine Font more closely aligned with who they are and what is important to them.
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A thing to keep in mind is that while most Dwarves pay some homage to Torag, the people who are actually bound by his Anathema tend to not be the politicians who actually run the show in Dwarven society. A random Dwarf from clan A might show mercy to a random dwarf from feuding Clan B with the justification "you're not the enemy of my people, you are my people" and not being bound by Torag's anathema, nothing bad will happen to them which they can take as Torag's tacit approval.
Dwarves are not culturally especially zealous people.