Thaumaturge and Recall Knowledge

[Ravingdork]

How are we expected to handle the many Thaumaturge abilities that rely on Recall Knowledge checks?

Many of the class abilities seem to require the player to know the level of success in order to function, but the Secret trait says not to tell the player that information.

Nothing that I've seen says to ignore the Secret trait, or to treat Recall Knowledge any differently except where the class abilitues explicitly added new benefits/effects to the check.

It seems the rules are at odds with itself, leaving us at a loss for how any of it is intended to work, much less be properly playtested.

[Blake's Tiger]

Which ones?

Find flaws is not Recall Knowledge, and it tells you exactly what happens on a CS/S/F/CF.

[John R.]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Which ones?

Find flaws is not Recall Knowledge, and it tells you exactly what happens on a CS/S/F/CF.

The problem is, you're going to know if you're getting a critical failure when you are not able to use Esoteric Antithesis and become flat footed, so the "secret" false information you're going to get from the critical failure on Recall Knowledge is no longer going to be so secret.

[Blake's Tiger]

Find Flaws isn't a secret. You gain the specific information when you use Find Flaws. All weaknesses, resistance, and immunities on a Critical Success. Highest weakness on a Success. You gain no information on a Failure or a Critical Failure. No false information.

The only time you get other kinds of information is on a CS or S when you already know all the resistances and weaknesses of the target.

[John R.]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Find Flaws isn't a secret. You gain the specific information when you use Find Flaws. All weaknesses, resistance, and immunities on a Critical Success. Highest weakness on a Success. You gain no information on a Failure or a Critical Failure. No false information.

The only time you get other kinds of information is on a CS or S when you already know all the resistances and weaknesses of the target.

"You determine a creature’s weaknesses, whether a literal

weakness or a metaphysical one. Recall Knowledge about a
creature, using your Charisma modifier instead of the usual
ability modifier for the skill you’re using to Recall Knowledge.
The creature must be either one you can see or one you’re
specifically Investigating in advance during exploration. The
result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has
the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of
Recall Knowledge."

[Ravingdork]

John R. wrote:

"... The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge."

Quite right. It doesn't really work as written. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The two sets of benefits are rather antithetical to one another.

[Blake's Tiger]

Ugh.

*Rubs temples*

This is yet one more reason why I think it should be divorced from Recall Knowledge and just be a standard DC vs. the CR of the creature using the skill tied to the creature type.

So, do they really mean that I can use Find Flaws while asking for special attacks to potentially get the highest weakness and a special attack? Or did they write themselves in a circle?

[John R.]

Blake's Tiger wrote:

Ugh.

*Rubs temples*

This is yet one more reason why I think it should be divorced from Recall Knowledge and just be a standard DC vs. the CR of the creature using the skill tied to the creature type.

So, do they really mean that I can use Find Flaws while asking for special attacks to potentially get the highest weakness and a special attack? Or did they write themselves in a circle?

If you are using the [commonly used] house rule of being able to ask X questions, then yes. I think it is intentional that it is supposed to be that strong though.

As far as the negating the "secret" aspect of critical failures, I think they should specify that Recall Knowledge checks with Find Flaws no longer give false information on critical failures. Maybe treat them as normal failures with the 1 true/1 false of Dubious Knowledge.

I think most everyone is in agreement that Find Flaws needs tweaking and/or Recall Knowledge needs a much needed clarification.

[The Raven Black]

Two things :

First, all secret checks can become non-secret if the GM wishes so.

Second, there is already a similar situation within the RAW, as you cannot use RK again on a creature if you failed a previous RK roll.

Or do you allow a PC to use RK again after a critical failure but not after a regular failure ?

[Ravingdork]

The Raven Black wrote:

Two things :

First, all secret checks can become non-secret if the GM wishes so.

Second, there is already a similar situation within the RAW, as you cannot use RK again on a creature if you failed a previous RK roll.

Or do you allow a PC to use RK again after a critical failure but not after a regular failure ?

Man, what a mess.

[Ruzza]

I love Recall Knowledge and often encourage my players to use it frequently. I also love the critical failure effect from a roleplay standpoint.

That said, as PF2 continues and we get more RK-based abilities, spells, and playstyles, I lean more towards an easy fix that solves a lot or problems that I have: removing the secret tag and the critical failure. It hurts to lose it, but it frees up so much more space for RK to shine as well as enable those sorts of knowledge builds with no fuss. I'm still all for Dark Archive taking another pass at the action, but until then, I'm thinking of playing around with this houserule.

[Staffan Johansson]

The Raven Black wrote:

Two things :

First, all secret checks can become non-secret if the GM wishes so.

Second, there is already a similar situation within the RAW, as you cannot use RK again on a creature if you failed a previous RK roll.

Or do you allow a PC to use RK again after a critical failure but not after a regular failure ?

You will generally know if you rolled a normal failure on a Recall Knowledge check, because that will give you no information (or, with Dubious Knowledge, either A or B).

On a critical failure, I would allow another attempt but it would automatically fail.

Also, I think it's kind of dumb that you don't get to try again on a failure with Recall Knowledge. I would see someone making repeated attempts as racking their brain and going "I know I've read about them somewhere, it's right on the tip of my tongue...". Some type of retry penalty might be more appropriate.