Hi everyone, I am looking for advice on a well rounded region which could serve as a backdrop for (perhaps) a mini Pathfinder 1e campaign starting at level...2.
I have a lot of ideas rolling around in my head, but to keep it simple - the plan is to manage a sandbox-y kind of game, in which players are free to move around and chase their adventures (or be thrown into some if necessary), but since my days of having the availability to spend hours pondering about adventure hooks for my group of players, and designing the encounters, are long gone, I am looking for something which will make my life simple, while allowing me the opportunity to improvise and change stuff as we go.
We can discuss it further, but some of the things I am looking for/trying to accomplish:
- Getting back into GMing without being overwhelmed with too many things at once;
- Creating a game/story in which the characters are actually true participants (I have seen too many recruitments filled with requests from GMs for absurdly rich backgrounds which never actually come into play), and their story has relevance;
- Allowing player agency (I am as old school as the days of ‘You are all gathered at the tavern after another job well done - the caravan was escorted safely into town, and you were decently paid. What do you want to do now?’);
- Have a rich environment which offers avenues for adventure, on top of whatever might motivate the players;
- Hopefully this environment will be partially fleshed out with NPCs, adventure hooks etc. I am not afraid to build upon a pre-existing framework, but I do not have time to do everything from scratch;
- The game will be PbP
That is all I have for now - hope it is enough to get the ball rolling :D
Thank you in advance for any possible suggestions!
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I'm a sandbox-y GM too. I've found that the easiest and most visceral-feeling way to create a sandbox is to start off by drawing a map. And honestly, this is the hardest part, but just start, and then don't stop drawing. Mountains, forests, cities, towns, lakes, rivers, oceans, villages, the whole bit-- and get Bob Ross'ian about it too, you don't make mistakes, you have happy accidents. Now name everything. Name the rivers, towns, meadows, etc, and if you have namer's/writer's block, try visiting Fantasy Name Generator and Seventh Sanctum to get the creative juices flowing. And after you've finished naming everything, add little quirks to each place you've named. This city likes chariot racing, this forest is home to "Uberstag" the elusive 17-point buck-- and every year for the last 10 years people have come from around the world to shoot it during hunting season--, this town has a coffee-focused economy, etc.
And now destroy it-- create your villains. Throw a "metaphorical" dart at your map and let's say you hit a village; now that village has been recently besieged and taken over by orcs-- maybe they're even threatening to move on to the next village soon-- naturally, there would be refugees who fled, so what does that look like in this area? Throw another dart at the map, and now that city has a coven of vampires that has been preying upon the cityfolk-- there's probably a vampire hunter nearby, maybe he has fought with them already and was bitten, so now he's changing into a vampire-- maybe the vampire hunter was hired by the king, so the coven of vampires have kidnapped the king's son as leverage-- so what does that look like in this city? Throw another dart, there's a mind flayer in a cave in that mountain range and he's preying upon the dwarves. Throw another dart, and maybe you hit the forest with the 17 point buck this time, maybe there's a Neutral Druid who is a little pissed off about the sport hunting going on in her forest, and now she's succumbing to evil and plotting revenge against the nearest major city. Is there a swamp on your map? Maybe that swamp is home to a coven of evil witches, and are constantly at odds with a young adult black dragon (evil doesn't get along with evil, after all). The point here is to create plot hooks that provide SYMPTOMS by creating villains with GOALS, and make them visceral/tangible things that are "felt" by your world.
Once you're satisfied with your villains and their particular destructiveness, now pick a place for your adventurers to meet. Each sesh they move on to a different town/city or w/e, then each week, you expand the sandbox in whatever direction they're moving, that way you're at least 3-4 weeks ahead of your players at any given point.
My buddy Gregor created this, and I've used it for years. Give this to your PC's and tell them they have 1 minimum from each section: Unresolved Mystery / Occurrence with the Character, Character has an Obligation / Duty, and What Motivates your Character. They can pick 2 or 3 or more if they want from each section. And they can create their own if they want (highly encouraged). These listed below are merely examples.
Session Zero or before:
• Backstory: A Player’s backstory consists of at least three variables. These are just some examples. There are many more. Many of these may overlap. This is not a problem, but a solidification of how the player wants to interact with the world.
o Unresolved Mystery / Occurrence with the Character
A murder in the family
Someone stole a family heirloom
Born under an auspicious sign
Curse
Strange voices telling you to do things as a child
Visions
Prophecy / Chosen one
Hurt while young
o Character has an Obligation / Duty
Owes money / favors
Organization the player is a part of
Deity
Job / Profession
Code / Honor
Mentor / Person the player respects/fears
Lord / Lady
Family / Loved one
o What Motivates your Character
Riches
Fame
Power
Resolution(Unresolved mystery)
Reenacting/imitating a famous character
Free slaves
Find X person/Family member
Destroy / Save organization
One last job
o Secret Objective? (Not needed. More suited to an evil or intrigue based campaign)
Undermine other player/s
Take over the world / region / organization
Spy / Send information back to actual allies
Steal Artifact / Prototype / McGuffin
Again, any of these may overlap.
Take all of these things from all players involved and find ways to bring them together that seem organic. Then use the obligations and motivations to make fun encounters and to steer the player towards more fun or danger. Ultimately the players could possibly complete their mystery / occurrence as part of resolving the main story arch.
Extra advice
Never try to make a player’s character what you think it should be or speak as if it is like you think he should be. Always refer to a character as the player sees him. Eg: If someone is playing a monk with the vow of poverty, do not react to them with NPCs as a bum if they prefer to appear to be clean but humble servants in plain robes. Also do not try to give a character items to make them how you see them, but find items or make them up to enhance how a player has been playing his character.
I'm not aware of premade backgrounds that are legit sandboxes. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I just haven't come across them. {. . .}
What about Kingmaker? Or this type of Campaign (unfortunately, this particular example went inactive, but it was a great idea).
You might be able to adapt a Pathfinder module to do what you're after. They've got a built-in plot, so are much more railroad than sandbox, but it's possible you could strip out some elements and rejigger for your own purposes. That would at least give you a setting and bunch of level-appropriate encounters. The modules are usually written for a single level, with some leeway, and are intended to level up the characters at the end. If you're feeling truly ambitious, get the first book of an Adventure Path. Much more material, written to take characters starting at 1st level up to L3 or 4.
Some really nice ideas Smallfoot - I completely agree that the setting/background/environment for APs is at least moderately rich and well detailed, so that could definitely be one of the ways to go. And I am not adverse to an overarching plot - in fact I really like it, but I want to be as far away as possible from the whole 'this side quest will move us away from the main plot' discussion.
I'm a sandbox-y GM too. I've found that the easiest and most visceral-feeling way to create a sandbox is to start off by drawing a map. And honestly, this is the hardest part, but just start, and then don't stop drawing. Mountains, forests, cities, towns, lakes, rivers, oceans, villages, the whole bit-- and get Bob Ross'ian about it too, you don't make mistakes, you have happy accidents. Now name everything. Name the rivers, towns, meadows, etc, and if you have namer's/writer's block, try visiting Fantasy Name Generator and Seventh Sanctum to get the creative juices flowing. And after you've finished naming everything, add little quirks to each place you've named. This city likes chariot racing, this forest is home to "Uberstag" the elusive 17-point buck-- and every year for the last 10 years people have come from around the world to shoot it during hunting season--, this town has a coffee-focused economy, etc.........
Wow Ryze, thank you for the plethora of advice, and the really nicely written down reply. I think I have seen before something along those lines, but the 'Gregor's Character Creator Recipe' looks really solid, and I like it a lot. I want to find the characters with a good balance between a background, and a story that is not 'set in stone' so to speak. So they have a chance to evolve and change as the game progresses.
Last but not least, I would love to completely follow your advice on the visceral-feeling approach to a sandbox game - I have done it in the past. But now I simply do not have time for it, so I need some of the work to be done for me.
Or this type of Campaign (unfortunately, this particular example went inactive, but it was a great idea).
I will take a better look at the game, but from reading it in diagonal it does seem like it would fit the bill - I am sure there are enough modules and scenarios out there to set up almost any kind of imaginable campaigns, it is simply a matter of finding the right ones. Right? :D
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Damn Mark.... So much good information. Thanks a lot!
So, currently I'm using the Lost City of Barakus from Frog God Games for 2 different sandboxes. Essentially its a slow advancement campaign meant for PF1 characters levels 1-5. The setting is very old school, kind of reminds me of Greyhawk from D&D, but with some PF1 high fantasy conveniences.
The upside is that you'll get a major port city, a sandbox full of adventure sites for the PCs to explore, plots in the city and in the titular megadungeon, and of course the megadungeon itstelf.
I will definitely try to get my hands on Lost City of Barakus - seems to be kind of what I was looking for, though I must admit I really like the classical start in a village or small town :D
And yep, I would like travel to be a part of the game, so thanks for the 'heads up'
I can't recommend random generators out there on the internet or in various game books enough. Donjon.com has a random tavern generator for example. This gives you the bare bones of the tavern, the owner with a blurb about them as an NPC, a few blurbs about patrons as well, and a rumor or three. Maybe a week before a game session hit the generator, grab one of the rumors you like and make a quick adventure about it and you're set.
Also Raging Swan Press has a TON of great books/PDFs about all sorts of stuff. You can randomly generate unique dungeon doors or settlement buildings or natural features of a swamp, all from the tables in these resources. RSP even has megadungeons and several settlement "backdrops" among their library if you want to just insert these whole cloth into your campaign.
Personally I like grabbing the old Advanced D&D Dungeon Master's Guide and flipping through some of the terrain and dungeon generators in there for quick maps. There's also tables for tricks and traps that you just don't see a lot in modern adventures. When was the last time PF added a "chute down two levels" in one of their adventures?
Ok, very solid resources - I will look them over. And wow... AD&D Dungeon Master Guide took me down memory lane. My copy is actually sitting in the bookcase behind me :D
The key to ANY sandbox though is the players. You HAVE to get active players that can set goals for themselves and proactively work to achieve those goals..... If the PCs happen upon a ruin in the wilderness they could explore it, kill some monsters, find the loot and leave. OR... they could use spells, tools, and hirelings to rebuild the place. Their constant travel to and from the site grinds down the ground into a dirt road connecting the place to the main highway of the campaign. Monsters try to siege them during the work but they repel said monsters. The land around the ruin has been left fallow for decades but the meadow is good for grazing or the forest has solid hardwood for harvest.
The point is: a ruin in the wilderness is much more than just a monster lair, for the right players.
I agree with this 200% and it is one of my concerns. As a player I am like that, but it hasn't brought me a big measure of success or satisfaction trying to bring that attitude to most PbPs here in the Paizo forums. Sometimes I just think I am an 'old fashioned gamer' or something like that. Or maybe just old? Everything seems too... Scripted for me. But the only way to find out if there are people interested in such a game is putting it out there I guess. And then choosing the players wisely.
Oh yeah, one other resource: 5 room dungeons at roleplayingtips.com. The name is kind of misleading; a "5 room dungeon" is just a collection of 5 related encounters strung together with a theme and a bit of story that follow a pattern + So, using all of these and the Donjon Tavern Generator I mentioned above, you can whip up a fast adventure.
Hahahaha, I love this - I get the feeling I will be using it regardless of the outcome of the sandbox idea. The tavern generator is just absurdly cool!
I have a similar dilemma to the opening post. I prefer sandbox style games but I don’t have the time to figure out all the details in advance.
My way of getting around that is to limit the scope to a small city/island/dungeon/demi-plane where the PCs can’t leave (at least for awhile) so I don’t have to create too much stuff in advance. Then by the time they escape I have time to plan and create the next area.
LOL yeah, I bring the same energy as a player. I once made a GM rage quit his own campaign. He tried to ad lib a ruined tower along the road in the travel narration of an adventure we were on. When that adventure wrapped I immediately convinced the rest of the party to go back to that ruin. We would gather info in taverns and towns along the way back, scout the area, and then try to explore it ourselves. Once completed, since there was also a modest forest nearby, we could set up shop there and start cutting timber to fix the place up.
The GM was not prepared for this and admitted as much, ending the session early. He said we'd meet back in 2 weeks and he'd try to have something ready by then. That was 5 years ago in June this year, so I'm guessing we're probably done with that campaign.
But this right here is what I do not understand - why would it ever be an issue. Most of my memorable gaming experiences around the table originated from things completely outside the 'main' plot or backstory, and evolved into extraordinary things. Even after many years, we still talk about the time they came running out of Rappan Athuk to hide in some ruins nearby, only to have them turned into a base of operations from which they veritably 'waged war' on Rappan Athuk, initially recruiting soldiers, but then later having people actually join their cause. Or when they got railroaded in Sigil in the middle of their very first adventure, to get into a very serious tussle with drow elves just over a spilled drink, which over the course led to a series of dramatic events, even some PC deaths, and a quote from one of the minotaur PCs that lasts to this day, decades later. It started out script based, but then gained a life of its own, and turned into something we all still remember in my old gaming group.
Anyway, I'm an old fart (as evidenced by my DMG comments lol!) I have no idea if folks still play like this anymore. I can tell you that my own players do not. For them, "sandbox" means something like Diablo or Skyrim or World of Warcraft.
In other words you're not there to build a base or establish YOUR character's goals and dynasty. Rather, the "open world" is there to give you plenty of areas to level up your abilities and gear between story-related missions. They railroad themselves and their characters are big piles of words and numbers.
Well, from one old fart to another, I also miss it. I am not sure it is even possible to recover that kind of gaming attitude, but it is worth a try. There are a LOT of gamers out there, so I am sure there are more who would enjoy being part of such a game, and others who perhaps never even tried it but would like it if they did.
You know, reading this, I'm not sure where I fall. I call my game a sandbox, because we built an original open world map. We also each take turns GMing, so there's always a new storyline. But each story is kind of scripted, based on what the current GM has prepared for us.
The last time I played in a game like what you describe was nearly a decade ago in Marvel. Might be why I love that system so much. I wonder if there's a good way to balance the styles, or bring a little of that "old school" feel to our game. We built a world we want to explore, so I'm not sure how the home base fits with that. I'd love to see more character backstory and goals weave into our game, but it's tricky to not have your own goals override when you've built a story/adventure. Each of us that runs still has our PC in the party, but they step into a background role.
It may sound old fashioned, but at the end of the day what matters is having fun - there is no right or wrong way for it :)
I too am looking to gather a mix of sandbox and scripted content - I sorely miss playing with my tabletop RPG group, but the fact is the PbP medium allows some more flexibility and creativity (in my opinion) since you are not required to respond to anything on the spot, as you do with tabletop. So it leaves you more room to think about what the next steps can be, and more room to adapt to whatever the players do. With that in mind, I feel it may be ideal to allow the players and characters some sandbox-y leeway in leading their characters where they want to go, and then have pre-scripted stuff to accompany this and introduce as needed, or where it makes sense.
I think another good thing of adapting already existing modules or scenarios (on top of the fact that someone already dedicated their time and effort to create something interesting which you can put to good use), is that even though there is always a degree of preparation that needs to go into it, at least you are not creating everything from scratch about THAT specific ruin and all its amazing history and treasures, to have the players simply ignore it and instead go back to town because they want ALE! I know we have all been there at least a few times :D Instead of spending hours working on something to see it completely ignored (or trying to come up with ways to shoehorn the content you created into the game one way or another), why not profit from the myriad of adventures/NPCs/locations/plots/etc already out there, and build around that as you go? That is my plan.
I have a similar dilemma to the opening post. I prefer sandbox style games but I don’t have the time to figure out all the details in advance.
Hope you find some interesting info in this thread then ;)
My way of getting around that is to limit the scope to a small city/island/dungeon/demi-plane where the PCs can’t leave (at least for awhile) so I don’t have to create too much stuff in advance. Then by the time they escape I have time to plan and create the next area.
I like the idea of limiting the scope to start, and for me a lot of the possible success of a game rides exactly on that - how do you limit the scope, without making it feel artificial? And then allow it to slowly expand in a way that seems/feels logical? I mean, back in the day this was as simple as making the group start at level 1, and finding some short overarching plot to make them concerned about the immediate region to start with. Level 1 characters have limited resources, so they shouldn't be able to go too far from 'home base' to start with. Of course if they really want to do it, they can. But in that case, what the heck, I say roll with it! Or at least that is what I want to try and do.
Like the Princess said in Dune 'A beginning is a very delicate time', and I do think the same applies for a (mini) campaign - what brings the characters together? Are they just all in the same place at the same time for some reason? Are there subtle bits and pieces in each of their backgrounds that will make them find something in common? A Paladin may be easily moved to simply help others, while a Roguish character may need more motivation, or to be nudged along. With that being said, and to keep this post short-ish, that is something I have been pondering about (along with what and where the game will happen exactly) - how much background info I will ask from the players regarding their characters? I really do not want people to spend hours working on a background, just to see their character not being chosen. Been there. Hate it. But I do need to find some key questions... Something along the lines of 'What are your character's plans for the future, if he has any?', but better phrased, or with additional questions. I need to know how to bring them together, and also what motivates them individually somehow. I am sure a few 'right' questions would do the trick, just not exactly sure of what they should be.
Might be getting ahead of myself though - first I need a setting for the game. And I know I was talking about level 2, but... I think I will start it at level 1. And I will not plan for something GRAND to start with. I want something small, but with potential.
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What brings the characters together? Are they just all in the same place at the same time for some reason? Are there subtle bits and pieces in each of their backgrounds that will make them find something in common? A Paladin may be easily moved to simply help others, while a Roguish character may need more motivation, or to be nudged along. With that being said, and to keep this post short-ish, that is something I have been pondering about (along with what and where the game will happen exactly) - how much background info I will ask from the players regarding their characters?
One technique we use is to tell the players 'you have to be part of this group/community, and you have to have a reason to want to protect that group/community'. So, if your campaign starts in the village of X, tell the players they have to have ties to the village. Maybe they live there, maybe they are travelling traders who use it as their base, maybe one PC is apprenticed to the druid who lives in the woods and keeps the werewolves at bay. But you are giving the party the thing that they have in common, and they develop the character from that seed.
Another trick to use in a similar vein - come up with a list of a dozen NPCs with a couple of sentences about them,and tell each PC to pick two - one they have good relations with and the other bad relations, giving a reason. It doesn't have to be dramatic - "I borrowed a spellbook and forgot to give it back". "I used to run errands for him as a kid". "I sold his Lordship some magic beans that weren't actually magic". Not all of these will be plot hooks, but it adds scope for them.
I feel inclined to agree with you both - I think both the list of NPCs and discussing the characters’ backgrounds together are good options. Using both simultaneously might be overkill, but I never tried it, so who knows? :D
But you guys are even more right on the bottom line - characters need a reason to get together. The more solid the reason, the better - granted it may be hard to have life lasting relationships from the get go for level 1 characters, but it is still worth it to try and find a common ground. Even if one wants to play a ‘loner/outsider to the group’ kind of character, there can still be a thousand valid reasons for her/him to cherish the group, and want to advance their goals.
If I had to decide which option is better to bring characters together, between the simple offer of a job, the tied in backgrounds, or the ‘throwing them all into a tavern and having it attacked by monsters’, I think the tied in background is perhaps the one which may feel less... Forced?
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Didn't want to leave everyone without an update - I have an already running 'pirate-inspired' game running slow with my old tabletop game (it alternates between PbP and over Skype), so I think I will use that as an exercise for all we discussed above.
I used the 'Plunder & Peril' module to get things rolling, and they are already into the early stages of it - so I will build from there and see where it takes us. The underlying plot is simple enough (no spoilers), so for starters I will start adding small details to Lilywhite while they are still in the area, plus some side adventure hooks here and there.
Really curious to see how this one will grow from here.
Will keep you all updated, and if you have any suggestions on plot hooks around that region do let me know ;)