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I have a few concerns about the Thaumaturge feats we have now.
First, there are a lot of feats that give Thaumaturge archetype feats in-class. Scroll Trickster, Talisman Dabbler, and Familiar Master can already get anyone benefits from the Scroll, Talisman, and Familiar feat chains for Thaumaturge and while Thaumaturge has an easier time mixing and matching those features, they get that at the expense of a larger number of unique Thaumaturge tricks. Thaumaturgic Ritualist is effectively the Ritualist dedication too but not a dedication. The easier time getting those and another dedication is nice, but it feels like a lot of space is spent on giving them that flexibility, and I would personally prefer more unique stuff for thaumaturgist over more unique ways of combining things everyone can already do.
Second and related, I don't particularly like feat chains and Thaumaturge has a lot of those. Familiar, Esoterica, Talisman, Scroll feats all are chains (and probably have to be since they are based on feat chains), and on top of that Ubiquitous Antithesis, Unlimited Demense, Shared Warden, and Quick Circle all have prerequisite feats. The only capstone available to all Thaumaturges is Wonder Worker because the others need prior ones. Having feat prereqs isn't especially taxing for 2-feat combos, but I also wonder if these are really strong enough to be two feats each. Quick Circle seems pretty restrictive in combat since Thaumaturge wants to attack and find flaws and use equipment but have to spend a whole turn Quick Circling to use it, I don't know if it really needs to be a separate feat from Draw Warding Circles rather than an automatic upgrade at 12. Unlimited Demense has a similar setup, the benefit isn't especially big if it is just tacked onto the prereq as a level 20 extra perk IMO. It feels like there are a lot of feats that build off taking other feats, and I don't know if the class really benefits from that setup. Maybe my personal dislike for feat chains clouds my judgement on this though.
The last concern I have is a slightly different issue, but a lot of Thaumaturge feats get shut off if they cannot Esoteric Antithesis. If I understand the rules correctly, a critical failure on Find Flaws gives you the Find Flaws crit fail and the regular RK crit fail effects, and a crit fail on RK prevents further attempts. So you get locked out of Find Flaws against a creature if you crit fail that initial roll. In a single creature fight, some of the most brutal fights for large parts of the game (since they tend towards higher level creatures with higher numbers that are easier to, say, crit fail Find Flaws) you can shut off a lot of Thaumaturge feats and features. Esoteric Lore (since the only benefit is you Recalling Knowledge, that you have lost with the crit fail), Esoteric Warden, Draw Warding Circles, Rule of Three, Sympathetic Weakness, Share Antithesis, Twin Weakness, Quick Circle, Esoteric Reflexes (due to the existing reactions), Shared Warding, Tresspass Teleportation, and Ubiquitous Antithesis all are dependent on Esoteric Antithesis or Find Flaws in some way. That is enough feats to be all of a Thaumaturges class feats, and is one option or more at every level except 18. That is a lot of class feats that get turned off for single creature fights by 1 bad roll, really makes something like Unmistakable Lore feel super important for the class. Admittedly, I am not sure if I'm reading Find Flaws and Recall Knowledge correctly for this one, maybe this isn't a problem. Worse comes to worse, you can always be sure not to pick too many of these options to keep yourself in business in those fights I suppose.
TLDR; I feel like there are a lot of recycled feats and feat chains in the Thaumaturge as of now, and that a lot of feats get turned off if you crit fail a Find Flaws check, and I am concerned about it. Anyone else feel this way? Am I missing or underestimating some of these options?
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I think you are spot on about the critical failure of Find Flaws.
From my current understanding, against the mob of mooks, you will succeed at FF but they will die soon, so you do not benefit that much from your FF-related features and feats. And against the BBEG you have a real risk of crit failing FF and thus lose all such benefits.
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Hard disagree on the scroll talisman feats. They're very flavorful and fit perfectly into the class.
I'm not sure about your FF conclusion either. Find Flaws is its own unique activity that contains RK, but it's still a unique activity with no lockout condition of its own. The fact that a CF explicitly only locks you out of EA for one round I think adds to that, since it's fairly redundant if you're intended to lose the ability to FF outright.
The scroll one seems very limited. You really don’t get many and they come late. But I guess not needing to be from a particular tradition offsets this
What really is the point of the familiar ones though? What do they really offer a Thaumaturge? The magic boosts (main reason for a familiar) have no effect and you also can’t get reagents. It really doesn’t seem to fit with the class at all …
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The scroll one seems very limited. You really don’t get many and they come late. But I guess not needing to be from a particular tradition offsets this
What really is the point of the familiar ones though? What do they really offer a Thaumaturge? The magic boosts (main reason for a familiar) have no effect and you also can’t get reagents. It really doesn’t seem to fit with the class at all …
It's not very useful. My guess is that they just decided familiars are a cool, flavorful magic thing so it made sense for them to have the option.
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I'm not sure about your FF conclusion either. Find Flaws is its own unique activity that contains RK, but it's still a unique activity with no lockout condition of its own. The fact that a CF explicitly only locks you out of EA for one round I think adds to that, since it's fairly redundant if you're intended to lose the ability to FF outright.
From Find Flaws : "The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge."
One of the usual effects of RK is that you cannot retry on the same creature if you fail (or crit fail) or get too high of a DC. "Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject."
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It's not very useful. My guess is that they just decided familiars are a cool, flavorful magic thing so it made sense for them to have the option.The scroll one seems very limited. You really don’t get many and they come late. But I guess not needing to be from a particular tradition offsets this
What really is the point of the familiar ones though? What do they really offer a Thaumaturge? The magic boosts (main reason for a familiar) have no effect and you also can’t get reagents. It really doesn’t seem to fit with the class at all …
It seems almost entirely linked to Bob the Skull from Dresden. Which was all well and good in 1E when you could add the archetype to familiars and there was the librarian (which fits him) as well as other useful ones. Now though …
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I'm not sure about your FF conclusion either. Find Flaws is its own unique activity that contains RK, but it's still a unique activity with no lockout condition of its own. The fact that a CF explicitly only locks you out of EA for one round I think adds to that, since it's fairly redundant if you're intended to lose the ability to FF outright.From Find Flaws : "The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge."
One of the usual effects of RK is that you cannot retry on the same creature if you fail (or crit fail) or get too high of a DC. "Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject."
This was my thinking. I thought the Find Flaws specifying that you could not attempt Esoteric Antithesis this round was more in reference to the idea that if there are 2 creatures you can Esoteric Antithesis next round. But fruitless is not a defined term, so maybe only the Recall Knowledge benefits get locked out but the Find Flaws benefits can apply since they are outside RK? I am unclear on it and find it ambiguous, if it does lock things out that is a lot of weight on one roll that you make in every single creature combat.
As far as scroll and talisman feats, I am less concerned that they get them and more concerned that they don't do anything new. Scroll Thaumaturgy specifically is an exception, it gives a benefit that Scroll Trickster does not, but the later feats are just feats from those archetypes brought in. I wonder if there could be a sidebar that says Thaumaturges can take the feats from those archetypes like a reverse version of the sidebar archetypes get that specify they can take existing class feats. Or maybe some extra benefit for Thaumaturges beyond just getting it in class.
I'm not sure about your FF conclusion either. Find Flaws is its own unique activity that contains RK, but it's still a unique activity with no lockout condition of its own. The fact that a CF explicitly only locks you out of EA for one round I think adds to that, since it's fairly redundant if you're intended to lose the ability to FF outright.From Find Flaws : "The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge."
One of the usual effects of RK is that you cannot retry on the same creature if you fail (or crit fail) or get too high of a DC. "Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject."
This was my thinking. I thought the Find Flaws specifying that you could not attempt Esoteric Antithesis this round was more in reference to the idea that if there are 2 creatures you can Esoteric Antithesis next round. But fruitless is not a defined term, so maybe only the Recall Knowledge benefits get locked out but the Find Flaws benefits can apply since they are outside RK? I am unclear on it and find it ambiguous, if it does lock things out that is a lot of weight on one roll that you make in every single creature combat.
As far as scroll and talisman feats, I am less concerned that they get them and more concerned that they don't do anything new. Scroll Thaumaturgy specifically is an exception, it gives a benefit that Scroll Trickster does not, but the later feats are just feats from those archetypes brought in. I wonder if there could be a sidebar that says Thaumaturges can take the feats from those archetypes like a reverse version of the sidebar archetypes get that specify they can take existing class feats. Or maybe some extra benefit for Thaumaturges beyond just getting it in class.
Do the levels match the archetypes?
I’d prefer extra benefits as it seems like classes should be stronger than archetypes in general
Do the...I'm not sure about your FF conclusion either. Find Flaws is its own unique activity that contains RK, but it's still a unique activity with no lockout condition of its own. The fact that a CF explicitly only locks you out of EA for one round I think adds to that, since it's fairly redundant if you're intended to lose the ability to FF outright.From Find Flaws : "The result depends on your Recall Knowledge check, which has the following additional effects as well as the usual effects of Recall Knowledge."
One of the usual effects of RK is that you cannot retry on the same creature if you fail (or crit fail) or get too high of a DC. "Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject."
This was my thinking. I thought the Find Flaws specifying that you could not attempt Esoteric Antithesis this round was more in reference to the idea that if there are 2 creatures you can Esoteric Antithesis next round. But fruitless is not a defined term, so maybe only the Recall Knowledge benefits get locked out but the Find Flaws benefits can apply since they are outside RK? I am unclear on it and find it ambiguous, if it does lock things out that is a lot of weight on one roll that you make in every single creature combat.
As far as scroll and talisman feats, I am less concerned that they get them and more concerned that they don't do anything new. Scroll Thaumaturgy specifically is an exception, it gives a benefit that Scroll Trickster does not, but the later feats are just feats from those archetypes brought in. I wonder if there could be a sidebar that says Thaumaturges can take the feats from those archetypes like a reverse version of the sidebar archetypes get that specify they can take existing class feats. Or maybe some extra benefit for Thaumaturges beyond just getting it in class.
Other than familiar at level 1 rather than familiar master dedication, the levels match for familiar master, scroll trickster, and taliman dabbler compared to scroll esoterica, talisman esoterica, and familiar feats. Also scroll thaumaturgy gives a better benefit as a prereq than scroll trickster dedication (you activate scrolls for free, rather than getting a bonus to trick magic item against scrolls). And Talisman Esoterica grants less than Talisman Dabbler Dedication, since there is an extra benefit in the dedication to affix or remove four talismans in ten minutes.
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Here's the issue that first stood out to me:
2nd Talisman Esoterica: 2 Talismans, 1/2 your level
8th Elaborate T. E.: +2 more, 1/2 your level
14th Grand T. E. : +2 more, 1/2 your level
See a problem yet?
If you've read the Talisman Dabbler Archetype, maybe not, since these feats are there too, except there it's just one feat taken repeatedly. This makes for mediocre design to string one out to three feats for the Thaumaturge as if there was some escalation in power.
Which brings me to my second point: why isn't there an escalation in power per feat? This flatness also goes against a core Paizo principle of making feats more than just about the numbers or basic increases. These are just basic increases of remember, is only a 2nd level feat.
And third, why is there actually a deescalation in power? Feats are supposed to ramp up in value. Those first 2 Talismans would be the best ones so at most the last 2 Talismans are equal, yet of less value for seeing use less often and needing installment, perhaps in the field. And for taking a feat that's 12 levels higher!
An easy patch would be make it a feat you take multiple times so there's design space for a different 8th and 14th level feat.
Better I think would be to spice up the feats (and forget about parity w/ Talisman Dabbler, at least re: this feat). Maybe increase the levels available; two level -7 Talismans at 14th seem like a poor upgrade for that level of feat! That's pocket change and only gets cheaper. Or be able to attach two talismans to an item. Even if only one is active, the other can be there to step in (perhaps w/ an action cost) w/o needing a break long enough for an install.
What I'd most like to see would be later ability to use a Talisman multiple times, which wouldn't necessarily increase above the +6 uses above, but would make using them more efficient.
Perhaps w/ these limitations:
-If used on a permanent Talisman, it becomes temporary, disappearing w/ the next daily prep. (What the level limit on this might be, dunno.)
-If used on a temporary Talisman, perhaps the next use has a time limit too, though whether that should be a minute or an hour, dunno. Or...
-Maybe there's a cool down period, so it can't get its second use until after a minute.
So many other directions to go w/ this too that I'm a bit disappointed.
Talisman feats should give higher level talismans. Level/2 is just too low, at some point it becomes effectively pointless because you can buy 100+ talismans of that level for a trivial cost.
I mean, it at least guarantees you can get enough talismans to use regularly. I know that some GMs just let players buy whatever they can afford in unlimited quantities, but that isn't the default assumption.
Most towns probably have a dozen talismans for sale at most, and they won't all be the talisman you want.
There's been a lot of talk in various threads lately of buying 100 of the same talisman or 100 of the same scroll, and I just wonder where the factories that pump out thousands of consumable magic items are located.
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Talisman feats should give higher level talismans. Level/2 is just too low, at some point it becomes effectively pointless because you can buy 100+ talismans of that level for a trivial cost.I mean, it at least guarantees you can get enough talismans to use regularly. I know that some GMs just let players buy whatever they can afford in unlimited quantities, but that isn't the default assumption.
Most towns probably have a dozen talismans for sale at most, and they won't all be the talisman you want.
There's been a lot of talk in various threads lately of buying 100 of the same talisman or 100 of the same scroll, and I just wonder where the factories that pump out thousands of consumable magic items are located.
Presumably the same factories that are pumping out a large enough quantity of +3 major striking weapons and +3 major resilient armour conveniently for the high level PCs to have all their essential math upgrades when they need it.
A level 19 city selling +3 major striking weapons is probably going to have a bunch of level 10 common items…
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Talisman feats should give higher level talismans. Level/2 is just too low, at some point it becomes effectively pointless because you can buy 100+ talismans of that level for a trivial cost.I mean, it at least guarantees you can get enough talismans to use regularly. I know that some GMs just let players buy whatever they can afford in unlimited quantities, but that isn't the default assumption.
Most towns probably have a dozen talismans for sale at most, and they won't all be the talisman you want.
There's been a lot of talk in various threads lately of buying 100 of the same talisman or 100 of the same scroll, and I just wonder where the factories that pump out thousands of consumable magic items are located.
Presumably the same factories that are pumping out a large enough quantity of +3 major striking weapons and +3 major resilient armour conveniently for the high level PCs to have all their essential math upgrades when they need it.
A level 19 city selling +3 major striking weapons is probably going to have a bunch of level 10 common items…
I can explain this one: those talismans are available because of all the ones I find on adventures and then sell back to the merchants. Though that doesn't explain who made them in the first place. ;)