Or is this just a common houserule that people assume is somewhere in the rules and haven't actually checked?
I can't find it.
Or is this just a common houserule that people assume is somewhere in the rules and haven't actually checked?
I can't find it.
It's the baseline of Bull Rush and the Reposition maneuver unless you have the greater versions.
If they don't have that language though, a forced movement could cause an AoO however. Is there a particular instance you're looking for?
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Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
I think that not all forced movement counts as moving. Falling into a pit that opens under your feet isn't moving (jumping into a pit is, at least for the initial part); using Dimension Door to move to a distant location isn't moving (it can be forced movement if some other guy is casting the spell and move you with him); being carried by a vehicle isn't moving.
In my opinion, you should consider what counts as "moving" to see if some forced movement provokes or not.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.I think that not all forced movement counts as moving. Falling into a pit that opens under your feet isn't moving (jumping into a pit is, at least for the initial part); using Dimension Door to move to a distant location isn't moving (it can be forced movement if some other guy is casting the spell and move you with him); being carried by a vehicle isn't moving.
In my opinion, you should consider what counts as "moving" to see if some forced movement provokes or not.
I found a James Jacobs post saying that falling provokes.
Or is this just a common houserule that people assume is somewhere in the rules and haven't actually checked?
I can't find it.
It's the baseline of Bull Rush and the Reposition maneuver unless you have the greater versions.
If they don't have that language though, a forced movement could cause an AoO however. Is there a particular instance you're looking for?
The original question was about Spheres of Power Telekinesis (nothing in the base sphere says anything about provoking or not provoking) and it got me into trying to find out if the notion of willing movement vs forced movement even exists in the rules.
It appears that it does not.
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JJ wasn't the rule guy for Pathfinder 1, only for Golarion specific things. But it is still a relevant comment from a developer.
Can you link it?
For a few seconds, there was a comment from BigNoseWolf that there is a FAQ saying that normally forced movement provokes, but then it was deleted. No idea if he was referring to the 1st edition or to the 2nd edition, as I don't recall that FAQ.
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Or is this just a common houserule that people assume is somewhere in the rules and haven't actually checked?
I can't find it.
It's the baseline of Bull Rush and the Reposition maneuver unless you have the greater versions.
If they don't have that language though, a forced movement could cause an AoO however. Is there a particular instance you're looking for?
The original question was about Spheres of Power Telekinesis (nothing in the base sphere says anything about provoking or not provoking) and it got me into trying to find out if the notion of willing movement vs forced movement even exists in the rules.
It appears that it does not.
Third-party material, so it becomes even more complicated.
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An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat.
Several things that forcibly move you say that they don't provoke, so probably the base assumption is that they provoke and you need specific text when that doesn't apply.
Third-party material, so it becomes even more complicated.Or is this just a common houserule that people assume is somewhere in the rules and haven't actually checked?
I can't find it.
It's the baseline of Bull Rush and the Reposition maneuver unless you have the greater versions.
If they don't have that language though, a forced movement could cause an AoO however. Is there a particular instance you're looking for?
The original question was about Spheres of Power Telekinesis (nothing in the base sphere says anything about provoking or not provoking) and it got me into trying to find out if the notion of willing movement vs forced movement even exists in the rules.
It appears that it does not.
Yeah, I'm ignoring that ruleset now and just trying to find an answer to the more general question:
"Does forced movement provoke an attack of opportunity?"
An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat.Several things that forcibly move you say that they don't provoke, so probably the base assumption is that they provoke and you need specific text when that doesn't apply.
It gets weird for example:
You are adjacent to an enemy.
Your ally casts create pit behind the enemy and they fall in.
Do you get an attack of opportunity?
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Interesting, but it means that the much later Branch Pounce will provoke.
Branch Pounce (Combat)
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 107, Heroes of the Wild pg. 22
You are adept at exploiting higher ground to its greatest advantage in battle, and can leap from above to deal incredible damage to your foes.Prerequisites: Climb 3 ranks, Stealth 3 ranks.
Benefit: When charging a target by jumping down from above (such as when jumping out of a tree), you can soften your fall with a melee attack. If the attack at the end of your charge hits, the attack deals damage as normal and you also deal the amount of falling damage appropriate to your fall to the target (1d6 points for a 10-foot fall, 2d6 points for a 20-foot fall, and so on). This falling damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target, and you take falling damage as if your fall had been 10 feet shorter. You can attempt an Acrobatics check as normal to treat the fall as an additional 10 feet shorter for the purpose of determining the damage you take from the fall. If your attack misses, you land prone in a random square adjacent to the target and automatically take the full amount of falling damage.
I suspect that there wasn't any unified opinion about forced movement and AoO between the contributors of the game. Probably the rule developers had one, but I am not sure if it was reflected in all the rules and abilities.
Interesting, but it means that the much later Branch Pounce will provoke.
I suspect that there wasn't any unified opinion about forced movement and AoO between the contributors of the game. Probably the rule developers had one, but I am not sure if it was reflected in all the rules and abilities.Branch Pounce (Combat)
Source Ultimate Wilderness pg. 107, Heroes of the Wild pg. 22
You are adept at exploiting higher ground to its greatest advantage in battle, and can leap from above to deal incredible damage to your foes.Prerequisites: Climb 3 ranks, Stealth 3 ranks.
Benefit: When charging a target by jumping down from above (such as when jumping out of a tree), you can soften your fall with a melee attack. If the attack at the end of your charge hits, the attack deals damage as normal and you also deal the amount of falling damage appropriate to your fall to the target (1d6 points for a 10-foot fall, 2d6 points for a 20-foot fall, and so on). This falling damage is not multiplied on a critical hit. You land in an unoccupied square of your choosing adjacent to the target, and you take falling damage as if your fall had been 10 feet shorter. You can attempt an Acrobatics check as normal to treat the fall as an additional 10 feet shorter for the purpose of determining the damage you take from the fall. If your attack misses, you land prone in a random square adjacent to the target and automatically take the full amount of falling damage.
Not a rules answer here, but I like how 5th edition resolved it: Any movement as part of your action, movement or reaction provokes; movement otherwise does not.
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Seems reasonable. A dragon snatching you shouldn't provoke an AoO from opponents.
If forced movement provoke, even a grapple by an opponent with reach would generate an AoO, as it will drag you to a square adjacent to you.
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).
Then there is moving an enemy as part of maintaining your grapple.
If I maintain a grapple and move my opponent through squares threatened by my friends?
For maximum "fun", can I, as a druid in large or larger air elemental form grappling an enemy:
- maintain a grapple,
- fly over the heads of my friends, and get them to make AoOs against him,
- then drop it so that I get an AoO?
While it seems rule compliant, it seems a bit iffy too.
Generally, that kind of "bonus" AoO requires some kind of feat.
The more simple baseline is just look at the action table, if the character moving spent an action to move and that action says it provokes, it provokes. Anything else doesn't provoke unless something else specific contradicts.
Moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions while in a threatened square are the General Rules for how AoO's get provoked, and forced movement isn't listed.
Considering that Greater Bull Rush, Greater Reposition, and Improved Awesome Blow all explicitly state that the forced movement from these CM's will provoke AoO's if you take the feat, one may extrapolate that Forced Movement does not generally provoke.
As far as the falling in a pit thing, it would need to say that the movement caused by the pit (falling) provokes an AoO in the spell description. Or you'd need to find/create 3pp feats called Improved Create Pit and Greater Create Pit :)
Interesting, but it means that the much later Branch Pounce will provoke.
Hm. It's one of those scenarios that you don't think about until someone brings them up. But I think Branch Pounce provokes as normal. Leaving a square when charging does provoke and nothing in the description notes an exception.
I'd say that wasn't a concern for the feat designer as the feat was likely intended to just be used in ambushes (when the target is flat-footed) from an enemy hiding above ground, rather than the weird in-combat builds that pops up.
It gets weird for example:
You are adjacent to an enemy.
Your ally casts create pit behind the enemy and they fall in.
Do you get an attack of opportunity?
Generally speaking, forced movement doesn't seem to provoke unless specified. But I don't think falling is forced movement (as in, another creature created an effect that moved you). More like unintended movement.
If a flying enemy uses their move action to fly through a chimney occupied by vicious bats, they'd provoke by doing so. I don't think it's intended that they could simply choose to stop flying and fall through the chimney to avoid AoOs.
It's a can of worms.
Interesting, but it means that the much later Branch Pounce will provoke.Hm. It's one of those scenarios that you don't think about until someone brings them up. But I think Branch Pounce provokes as normal. Leaving a square when charging does provoke and nothing in the description notes an exception.
I'd say that wasn't a concern for the feat designer as the feat was likely intended to just be used in ambushes (when the target is flat-footed) from an enemy hiding above ground, rather than the weird in-combat builds that pops up.
It gets weird for example:
You are adjacent to an enemy.
Your ally casts create pit behind the enemy and they fall in.
Do you get an attack of opportunity?Generally speaking, forced movement doesn't seem to provoke unless specified. But I don't think falling is forced movement (as in, another creature created an effect that moved you). More like unintended movement.
If a flying enemy uses their move action to fly through a chimney occupied by vicious bats, they'd provoke by doing so. I don't think it's intended that they could simply choose to stop flying and fall through the chimney to avoid AoOs.
It's a can of worms.
Branch Pounce always provokes an Attack of Opportunity when jumping from the low ground to the high ground though. This was proven in the Anakin/Obi-wan fight.
Moving out of a threatened square refers to the action "move", not any time you leave a threatened square. Only actions you take will by default trigger AoO.
The person falling into a pit didn't spend an action to fall into the pit, therefore they haven't let down their guard as part of the movement, and they don't provoke.
It is interesting. Referring to movement that requires an action to activate as involuntary seems like an error. And it provoking seems to line up with every other interpretation that you need to have taken an action to provoke, in this case a swift action.
Immediate actions usually don't provoke and the movement is in line with normal involuntary movement (you're basically getting baseball-batted/golf-clubbed across the battlefield, not so much that you're walking across the room), hence the need for both clarifications. Of course, the fact it still does provoke from other enemies is likely a balancing factor so you can't just intentionally walk into someone with a normal move action, eat the AoO from your normal movement to trigger this ability and then springboard through the enemy backline without triggering additional AoO to get at a squishy ranged character or mage to then combo with something like step-up+combat reflexes.