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No.
Unlike most RPGs, especially 3.X/PF1, build matters less for optimization than party synergy and battlefield tactics, which rely on an amount of fluidity and breadth that one PC cannot manage alone. The winner of a fight is not predetermined, and an AI that simply smashed the PCs up against the monsters would lose despite PCs having the advantage in nearly all fights.
That said, there have been "optimized party" suggestions/opinions as to which classes to mix, and at least one who shared a personal optimized party at high level that his table played. It featured lots of Reactions that fed off of each other to demolish melee opponents caught in the blender. It took lots of coordination, both in their build choices and table play. How well it dealt with flying or ranged enemies, I did not notice, but a Rogue was prominent so it likely had Hazards and social skills covered.
Unlike DnD 4.0 or 5.0, it'd be impossible for a solo PC to complete a published PF2 module, maybe even a single combat w/o lots of luck! When the Bestiary says a monster is 3rd level, yes, it can 50/50 a maxed out 3rd level PC. You gotta gang up.
Your max offensive guy won't always hit and your max defensive guy will still get hit. And you can't be both so expect to struggle. And IMO that's okay, since it's a tactical fantasy game, not a fantasy wish-fulfillment. There are no god-wizards either, and against bosses or major henchmen you'll have to settle for them making their save more often than not (though note that's often significant!).
Many consider Bard the best class, yet much of that is because of its powerful support abilities via Composition, a modest boost w/ strong multiplicative effects that work well with its debuffs...but not so much for itself as for martial allies, which the Bard may or may not have in their party.
So yeah, there are lots of roles to play in and out of combat, and setbacks will happen to any PC that'll need an ally to help overcome. Timing and positioning matter a lot now, and buffs are situational more than always-on while coordinated debuffs are pivotal. One does not simply walk up to a boss and stand there as if they'll trade blows! Most martials would prosper skirmishing instead of tanking, which of course has ramifications on the folks in the rear.
On the flip side, if you put an 18 in the stat that drives your PC's offense, you've already achieved a majority of your min-max potential!
One would have to intentionally subvert one's build to make a bad build after that OR try to do too much, i.e. be a gish (not that a gish can have an 18 in both their offensive stats anyway, but even getting close would likely cripple one's defense.)
So yeah, you may want to look for excellent tactics, something that often fluctuates with party composition, and then see which feats fit.
Oh, and don't underestimate terrain, a free hand, or a raised shield.
ETA: There are many guides for the individual classes that can help, but no class can optimize "for the system" only for their chosen role(s) in the system/party.
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What ^ said.
However, a framework to 10th that I've had a lot of fun with is a bully Hobgoblin Swashbuckler.
Ancestry: Hobgoblin (Steelskin)
Background: Martial Disciple (Athletics)
Class: Swashbuckler (Fencer)
Starting Stats:
Stat Boosts at 5th & 10th:
Skills Focus:
Ancestry Feats:
Class Feats:
General Feats:
Skill Feats:
Gear:
Season to taste (e.g. fill in the gaps with personal preference choices).
Demoralize a target and keep it frightened by hitting it with melee strikes (Remorseless Lash). Agonizing Rebuke deals mental damage as long as the target is frightened from your Demoralize.
Feint to gain Panache and make the target flat-footed. Then Bleeding Finisher from two spaces away with a whip against AC minus 3 or 4 (Frightened and Flat-Footed stack). On a critical hit, use the Leech-Clipper ability.
Third action? Step farther away or Tumble Through to regain Panache. Draw another whip. Demoralize another target. Recall Knowledge. And etceteras.
Or first action to Step if the target moved adjacent, then feint and finisher.
Reactions are primarily for defense. Dodge Away can be used to Step up to 10 ft. even if the triggering strike would normally miss without the added AC bonus of the reaction.
Demoralizing, Feinting, and making a single attack per turn (so, no multiple attack penalty) helps with accuracy. Keeping distance reduces getting hit and often burns enemy martials' actions.
It does struggle with mindless enemies and enemies immune to precision damage, but overall, I find it satisfying.
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My advice for optimization : aim for fun.
Find the concept you like. Check which class is the best fit.
Put your attack stat at 18, though 16 is still viable if you really need other high stats.
Put your DEX at the max value for the armor you're proficient with.
Get a good WIS because it helps both Will saves and Perception/Initiative.
Be sure that one or two PCs have healing (in and out of combat) covered.
There you go for character building.
Now the trickiest part will be to get a handle of the tactics that will help your party win : debuffs through spells, skills, positioning, raise a shield for better AC, make Recall Knowledge rolls to identify opponents' abilities and weaknesses, use Strides to get clear of your opponents and force them to waste actions chasing you. Remember that in most cases using a third Strike is the worst action you can take.
Be ready to go down some times, especially when fighting higher level opponents.
Always have the whole party healed to full between encounters, preferably with renewable resources (focus spells, treat wounds).
Remember to have fun.
Put your attack stat at 18. Dex based melee classes (except theif rogue) are bad a low levels. A 16 instead of an 18 means 15% less damage, so don't do that if you want to min/max.
Choosing a good weapon can help. A flick mace is the best weapon if you have attack of opportunity.
Spell choice is very important for effectiveness. At low levels almost all spells aren't good except heal and magic weapon. At higher levels you have a lot more options.
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What everyone else said.
Yes you can optimise this system.
It is possible to put together a build that is significantly more effective than other builds. But you can't become invulnerable, you can't automatically massacre opponents. There is noting as gross as the power differences that are present in D&D5. Providing you cover the basics you will make a reasonably competitive character.
For actual tips for strong builds:
Casters that buff or control are strong and a Bard is the best buffer. Direct damage is often bit underwhelming.
Martials who maximise their attacks without Multiple Attack Penalties are the best. But you can do this via reaction attacks, lowering the MAP, or selecting the right manuevers via feats. Reach is strong.
There is no one answer.
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Some more tips (some are repeats from the very good posts above):
- Bard is the most powerful Caster. Fighter is the most powerful Martial. Each class also has its own thing that cannot be poached.
- Help each other make the most of your abilities. Several times, I put my Bard in harm's way just so that the Paladin could use their additional attack.
- The 30ft range is of paramount importance. Always take it into account when planning your movement. Stay within range of healing.
As you can see in spells, there are 2 ranges that really matter in PF2 : 30ft and 60 ft.
The first is the range just beyond what most PCs can reach with a Stride (25 ft). The second is the one beyond what most PCs can reach with 2 Strides (50 ft). Anything beyond that is just gravy.
If you are 25ft away or less, the average PC can reach you and Strike twice in their round.
If you are 30 to 50ft away, they can reach you and Strike once in their round.
55 to 75ft away, they can reach you by spending all their actions Striding.
Beyond 75ft, they cannot even reach you.
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On the meta level, PF2 isn't a game where obsessive feat hunting and repeating builds you find (or buy) on the Internet is rewarded. The designers have intentionally moved away from that.
If you think that's stupid, maybe you're correct and maybe you're incorrect, but it's part of the design of the system, so you're like 4 years too late to change Paizo's mind about it at this point.
Guides are great for hearing what others think, but the dynamic range for all feats is narrower. On a scale of 1-10, all the PF2 options are like 3-7. There are way fewer 1s, and 10s, than in PF1. People still use the red-yellow-green-blue color scheme, but frankly PF2 blue is like PF1 green and PF2 red is like PF1 yellow. Now that I write that out, I guess there are a few stinkers in PF2 but whatever, the general point is that you could probably pick randomly and be fine.
Zenith keeps a list of guides.
There are feats that would be ranked as a 1 for a particular character or for a particular campaign. But those same feats could be ranked higher for a different character or a different campaign. Probably not all the way from a 1 to a 7 or 8, but there are some that I see as being 1 generally, but can go up to 4-6 in specific types of games.
What I don't see much of is feats ranked as a 10. The biggest must-pick that I am aware of is Basic Lesson at Witch level 2. And even for that there are specific characters and players that may choose a different class feat for that level.
The way I describe it: relative level between players and enemies determine if you win a battle. Character build and combat tactics determine how, and how well you win.
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Optimal classes that will give you good build options and most bang for the buck:
Fighter: Highest accuracy. Build with a multiclass and focus on reaction attacks or combined attacks like a Knockdown.
I built a fighter with a Champion Dedication. I built up his reactions. By lvl 10 he was able to Attack of Opportunity and Champion's Reaction. The goal is to eventually get Opportunist at lvl 20 and have a Champion's Reaction every enemy turn.
Druid: Storm Order druid. Start with Storm for 2 focus points and the Tempest Surge focus spell. Then get Order Explorer Animal. Get an animal companion for the first 8 or 10 levels. Then retrain to Wild Order for Order Explorer and pick up wildshape so you can eventually pick up Dragon Shape and other forms you might want.
With ancestry feats pick up a bow.
Advantages: You can use most types of damage and have good one action options and combat resources. Big flashy primal energy spells. Battle forms to use against lower level mobs. Tempest Surge for a powerful focus spell. A ranged weapon for a 1 action combat option that doesn't compete with your 2 action save spells.
Sorcerer: Elemental or Shadow. Sorcerer is fairly straightforward. Charisma is a high value statistic in PF2. You can get Intimidate with associated feats or Diplomacy with Bon Mot.
You get lots of spell slots. Elemental and Shadow both have good focus spells.
Shadow's best focus spell comes at lvl 10.
All elemental's focus spells are decent.
You can cherry pick great spells using the Cross-blooded feat.
Elemental eventually gets either a 1 action attack spell that does decent damage or an AoE blast spell you can generally use 1 to 3 times every battle. I recommend buying the refocus feats to regain more focus points to use your focus spells more often.
Shadow gets Consuming Shadows. This AoE ability is great because it only affects enemies in the range. You can sustain it and it mires enemies in shadow, expands, and does damage. It only costs 1 action to sustain and you will eventually get Effortless Concentration for a free sustain every round. Turn yourself invisible, walk amongst your enemies, watch the shadows kill them while you hit them with spells as well.
Toss in an intimidate here and there, your party should like you.
Giant Instinct Barbarian: This class starts off slow and painful. You take a beating and are super easy to critical hit. But you hit like a truck. Eventually you get enough hit points to take hits. And you can smash things at range, are hard to swallow, and have rounds of damage that are insane.
I recommend going with the Greatpick or Ogre Hook for maximum damage. But if you prefer to help the party more, you can use a Flair or Hammer to knock people prone on critical hits. That's more of a control build.
Thief Rogue: Nasty damage dealer. Build with Gang Up and Opportune Riposte. Remember your debilitations. Don't forget to use Stealth for initiative as often as possible and ambush people.
Bard: Best support caster in the game. Go with Maestro, but maybe pick up Polymath with the feat that let's you pick up a second muse. You can switch out spells more easily with the Polymath ability that gives you a spellbook equivalent. Not necessary, but allows for slightly more customization.
Main things to pick up are Harmonize for the double Composition Cantrips. Inspire Heroics for the boost. Dirge of Doom for the Harmonize with another composition cantrip for offense or defense.
Pick up synesthesia as soon as you can and true target. Use them in the same round, enjoy the applause and love from your group martials.
Those are some of the optimal builds I've built in PF2. They are focused mostly on combat optimization. They have been very effective.
As long as you don't expect PF1 level of optimization, you'll find the above character builds very effective. The build choices should be fairly obvious on the feat list. Pick the ones that make what you do better, you should do well.
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Some of the builds being presented to you, ThDandyMan, aren't that optimized IMO, which shows how subjective it can be in PF2. In PF1, offense was the primary benchmark, needing just enough other abilities to exert one's offense. Not so in PF2, where people have tried to build comparison systems, yet I haven't seen any succeed yet. It benefits one to have a variety of strategies available, w/o stretching too far beyond one's Class (because that's the source of your Proficiency advancements upon which all others hang).
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To piggyback off of HumbleGamer in my own words..., though first note that not all classes have these options available past the first two:
1. Find effective uses for all three actions w/ a menu of options.
2. Get a frequent Reaction. That's like getting a bonus action.
3. Get a Flourish move because most often they too are like getting a bonus action or in some cases two actions w/o MAP.
4. Get a Stance. In many cases these are equivalent to an extra action, sometimes to a perma-buff (with buffs being less common, yet more pivotal in PF2).
5. If a Fighter, get a Press (though there are a few other sources too). They're often as good as a Flourish, yet 1-action.*
6. Get a Focus Spell. Because they renew, that's a lot of castings per day. It's like free spell slots.**
7. Get a Cantrip. Ditto, w/ some, like Shield, being really useful for martials too.
As you might have tabulated, if a martial and you do 1-5, you'll have in effect double the number of actions available! You have to factor in MAP and more, but it's a good start. Part of a Fighter's strength is their easy access to getting all 5 though combat-style archetypes have opened that up to other classes a lot.
For 6 & 7, only go offensive (or Counteracting) if your PC has the casting stat AND will have the escalating proficiency to keep up. Most utility & defensive spells will remain worthwhile.
*If a Fighter, knowing which Press most appeals to you is a good way of determining which fighting style you'd prefer w/ your PC, even if that Press isn't available until high levels.
** If a caster, you have to measure how heavily you want to lean into Focus Spells. One and call it a day? Or will you take an escalating series, thus warranting getting the feats to Refocus 2 Focus Points (often at 12th) or 3 (at 18th when available)?
You're balancing that route w/ simply firming up your base abilities or with taking a casting class Dedication (perhaps w/ the same stat) that'd (eventually) really plump up your spell breadth (and maybe add something like a Composition or metamagic unavailable to you otherwise).
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Some of the builds being presented to you, ThDandyMan, aren't that optimized IMO, which shows how subjective it can be in PF2. In PF1, offense was the primary benchmark, needing just enough other abilities to exert one's offense. Not so in PF2, where people have tried to build comparison systems, yet I haven't seen any succeed yet. It benefits one to have a variety of strategies available, w/o stretching too far beyond one's Class (because that's the source of your Proficiency advancements upon which all others hang).
Yep solid points. Just be aware that every campaign and GM are different too. Optimised for one table is not optimised for another.
Further how you play your character, actual timing and tactics are important.Then every build will have its weak spot. Many things are immune to precision damage, low ceilings are a problem for large characters, etc etc...
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To piggyback off of HumbleGamer in my own words..., though first note that not all classes have these options available past the first two:1. Find effective uses for all three actions w/ a menu of options.
2. Get a frequent Reaction. That's like getting a bonus action.
3. Get a Flourish move because most often they too are like getting a bonus action or in some cases two actions w/o MAP.
4. Get a Stance. In many cases these are equivalent to an extra action, sometimes to a perma-buff (with buffs being less common, yet more pivotal in PF2).
5. If a Fighter, get a Press (though there are a few other sources too). They're often as good as a Flourish, yet 1-action.*
6. Get a Focus Spell. Because they renew, that's a lot of castings per day. It's like free spell slots.**
7. Get a Cantrip. Ditto, w/ some, like Shield, being really useful for martials too.As you might have tabulated, if a martial and you do 1-5, you'll have in effect double the number of actions available! You have to factor in MAP and more, but it's a good start. Part of a Fighter's strength is their easy access to getting all 5 though combat-style archetypes have opened that up to other classes a lot.
For 6 & 7, only go offensive (or Counteracting) if your PC has the casting stat AND will have the escalating proficiency to keep up. Most utility & defensive spells will remain worthwhile.
*If a Fighter, knowing which Press most appeals to you is a good way of determining which fighting style you'd prefer w/...
To me your advice starts really good, but gets wayward by being too specific on press and flourish. Those tags are often put on better powers but each of those tags is technically a weakness. I've been trying to put this advice together myself, but I'm not happy with it yet:
Optimise your actions:
a) Find effective uses for all three Actions w/ a menu of options. Understand Multiple Attack Penalty.
b) Get a frequent effective Reaction. That's like getting a bonus action. Its often the best way to get an extra attack per round.
c) Take feats/powers that optimise your actions eg, stances, free actions, multiple actions at a reduced action cost such as Sudden Charge, Twin Takedown, Skirmish Strike,Paragon's Guard,Gang Up gets you flanking at a whole lot less effort.... There is a lot that falls inot this category
d) Go first - pay attention to your initiative. Comabts can be only a few rounds going first is often critical.
Optimise your movement because each move costs an action
e) More base movement rate. Different movement types. An independant mount. A quickened effect from a feat or spell.
Have a ranged attack and a melee attack. They may not be great options for your build but sometimes you don't get a choice about it.
Optimise the numbers.
Each plus +1 to hit or to defense make around about a 20% difference if it is relevant. Each +1 to damage is important too. But the effect is typically smaller maybe half.
f) layer on your bonuses try to get at least one item and status bonus for what you are planning on doing. Occasionally you can find a circumstance bonus too.
g) layer the debuffs onto your enemy. Frighten, Sicken, Dazzle, Blind etc etc all contribute.
Optimise your soft skills.
h) Its amazing how effective a bit of reconnaissance, stealth, or diplomacy can be.
Optimise your resource use
i) A Focus spell is a free resource that comes back every ten minutes on a short rest. Find one that is effective.
j) Healing and Repair are pretty much free out of combat with minor effort. Somebody still needs to do that.
k) Have a zero resource cost default attack option. Like a cantrip, or a weapon attack. So you can contribute even if there is not point in using a costly resource,
Know your enemy and target his weakeness
k) Recall knowledge is useful
l) Have multiple different attack options and ways you can contribute to the fight. Not every tactic is going to be effective againt every opponent. This is where casters can really shine.
Do the reverse to your opponents.
I'm assuming the OP is talking about combat optimization.
No matter how some try to spin it, some class options are obviously better than others at combat. Some classes are better than others. It may not be as wide as it once was, but there is still a substantial difference.
I guarantee all the classes I listed are the top performing classes in the game and will outperform other classes in combat. I can explain why and how.
There are a variety of reasons that an optimizer will understand:
1. Stat Focus: The more you can focus all your power into a single statistic, the better you will perform.
2. Stat Value: The more valuable a statistic in the overall game, the better you will perform if you can focus on that statistic.
3. Damage Metric: You want to be able to hit hard and do a variety of damage types in PF2. So if a focus spell does more damage, it is generally better than a weaker focus spell. If it is also has a rider, then it is much better.
4. Reaction Attacks: Reaction attacks are high value attacks, but only certain classes can take advantage of them. The fighter is the best at taking advantage of reaction based attacks. A Champion is second best. If you're playing a fighter or champion, then you want to build around reaction based attacks.
Swashbuckler isn't terrible, but its main reaction attack is sometimes hard to activate.
The rogue has the easiest to activate reaction based attack, but it maxes at two for the class.
But if you are optimzing you could build a fighter with rogue archetype with reaction based attacks, then have more reactions getting Opportune Riposte a few times a round. But this won't come online until later level. If you get to that level, you can really hammer.
There are ways to truly optimize in PF2. And there are classes that are better than others if you are an optimizer. But you have to know how to build them.
The classes I gave you I can explain how to optimize them, why they are optimal, and why they will outperform other classes. If you want to know about any one of them, pick one and we can discuss it.
What others are listing are general ideas for optimizing a given character. It doesn't mean that one character won't vastly out-perform another just because the inherent options they can pick are better.
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I'm assuming the OP is talking about combat optimization.
While that is probably a correct assumption, it's worth considering the effort/reward ratio as the gap between most effective and least effective becomes smaller.
A lot of these questions are coming from people who are migrating from systems in which the rewards for combat optimization are higher, and, frankly, they're coming from a position of trying to score a very low-effort way to achieve those results: by copying a build that someone has already made.
The people who make PF2 are intentionally moving away from that.
One of my concerns with answering the very narrow questions that new players ask is that, over time, it's going to lead to mismatches between the game as designed and the expectations that players have. It's the reason why we have all these "waaaah i get hit all the time, waaaah i can't hit boss level enemies" threads.
The most optimized of combatants can't deal as much damage and will take more damage than what other systems with "optimized builds" and class guides can promise. There's really no way around that, so the real question is whether the new player that asks for optimized builds should be disappointed right away, or disappointed later.
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There are a lot of skills which should be considered along with combat modifier in terms of effectiveness. For example, how would you rank a skill or feat which could instantaneously defeat every enemy? Pretty high, even if it had a pretty low chance of success? Well, Diplomacy avoids fights altogether, and feats like Glad-Hand allow a check (at a penalty) even if they come out swinging. Stealth to be able to get around fights, and actions like Follow the Expert, are woefully underrated in the consideration of survivability, because they potentially allow a 100% victory rate on combats.
Hazards are another pretty serious combat obstacle (so serious that I think they may actually be unbalanced relative to the XP they award). The Thievery skill has got to have some consideration with respect to Reflex saves and/or damage reduced from a triggered trap/hazard (a party member having high Thievery reduces the need for high Reflex among other party members); Perception has to be considered with respect to avoiding the trap/hazard altogether.
Is drawing a dagger and stabbing someone in the neck an inevitable part of the game? Yes.
Does a party need to be good at doing that? Yes.
Does every member in a party need to have some baseline ability in doing that? Yes.
But, is an optimized party going to be measured by DPR? No.
I'm assuming the OP is talking about combat optimization.While that is probably a correct assumption, it's worth considering the effort/reward ratio as the gap between most effective and least effective becomes smaller.
A lot of these questions are coming from people who are migrating from systems in which the rewards for combat optimization are higher, and, frankly, they're coming from a position of trying to score a very low-effort way to achieve those results: by copying a build that someone has already made.
The people who make PF2 are intentionally moving away from that.
One of my concerns with answering the very narrow questions that new players ask is that, over time, it's going to lead to mismatches between the game as designed and the expectations that players have. It's the reason why we have all these "waaaah i get hit all the time, waaaah i can't hit boss level enemies" threads.
The most optimized of combatants can't deal as much damage and will take more damage than what other systems with "optimized builds" and class guides can promise. There's really no way around that, so the real question is whether the new player that asks for optimized builds should be disappointed right away, or disappointed later.
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There are a lot of skills which should be considered along with combat modifier in terms of effectiveness. For example, how would you rank a skill or feat which could instantaneously defeat every enemy? Pretty high, even if it had a pretty low chance of success? Well, Diplomacy avoids fights altogether, and feats like Glad-Hand allow a check (at a penalty) even if they come out swinging. Stealth to be able to get around fights, and actions like Follow the Expert, are woefully underrated in the consideration of survivability, because they potentially allow a 100% victory rate on combats.
Hazards are another pretty serious combat obstacle (so serious that I think they may actually be unbalanced relative to the XP they award)....
I am aware the optimization gap is smaller, but there is still optimization. Some classes do perform better than others. Some focus options are vastly superior to others. Certain classes do things so well that the difference in capability is as wide as it gets in PF2.
If the OP is looking for builds like that, they can be provided. Just need to know how he's leaning as it's not as easy as saying build a Beast Totem barbarian with Come and Get me with superstition, then stack on the magic items to boost all your key stats. Make sure to get power attack and a brutal two-handed weapon.