Thaumaturges are potentially able to permanently lose 5 features

[Leotamer]

I like the idea of implements, but I think there are a few problems with the rules as they are currently written:

Why is possible that you can permanently lose several class features from losing your class feature? There is a feat that helps mitigate it, but even after taking it, there is an explicit way to lose your implement.

A more minor note, but since the thaumaturge doesn't have a way to recover implements and second/third implement doesn't explicitly state that you obtain those implements, then by pure rules as written, those two features do nothing. The only reason is that this is minor is that I don't think anyone would reasonable play it like that.

Also, apparently all shop-keepers are meta-gamers. Implements can't typically be sold, but they are also mundane items. How would most shop-keepers know the difference between an ornate antique incense burner and the lantern implement of a thaumaturge?

If implements are irreplaceable, than they should be glued to their thaumaturge's hip with how many features they have that depend on them. Otherwise, I would just suggest that a thaumaturge be able to turn any mundane item into the appropriate implement they have. If it is a problem that would let thaumaturges with weapon's implements change what weapon they are using, then just state that they have choose the appropriate weapon when they gain the implement choice, but considering the focus on retraining, I don't see why that would be a big deal. Other than that, you would just need a caveat that when you make a new implement of a certain type, your previous implement of that type returns to just being a mundane item.

[Sagiam]

Leotamer wrote:

A more minor note, but since the thaumaturge doesn't have a way to recover implements and second/third implement doesn't explicitly state that you obtain those implements, then by pure rules as written, those two features do nothing.

Ummmm...

Second Implement wrote:

You’ve developed a greater connection to another item, or found a new item with potential.

[Castilliano]

GM: "We'll be playing a prison campaign next."
Player's Thaumaturge PC commits suicide.
Player: "You see a Monk walking along the path."

I wonder if item issues were why PF2 has scaled back the importance of Implements? A questionable choice, but there are several adventuring locales where having specific items doesn't jibe, i.e. lit lanterns or chalices of liquid underwater.

[OCEANSHIELDWOLPF 2.0]

I see a few posters aren’t a fan of “item classes”, that are over-reliant on items for the class functions. And I get it - I made a Monk/Paladin in the original CRPG Neverwinter Nights game to see how much self-healing and non-item reliance I could muster - turned out pretty good.

But I guess I’m also the kind of player who would find the challenge of Naked Doom (named after a Tunnels and Trolls book from the misty ages of last century where you start naked with no items) a challenge to be overcome, no matter how frustrating. There were times in original DnD and ADnD where for whatever reason, clerics would lose access to their deities and thus access to higher level spells. Definitely a frustrating time.

Eventually you’ll be able to get what you need, and you’ll have to rely on three other things - your other class abilities, your native wisdom/survival drive and….your other party members. And I guess it also comes down to the contract between the players and GM - how long will they keep you impaired…

[pixierose]

As a player I am fascinated by and love situations like this, and as a DM If there is a prison break, you bet your butt if I am have a thaumaturge im gonna have some interesting things to replicate what they would have wanted.

On the one hand I get it, there are mean DMS, and DMS that have a DM vs. player mindset and the rules could(and I suppose on some level) should guard for that but I also think the rules should be written with the expectation of Good Faith in players and DM's.

I get it if players don't like a certain style of play but should that not be something discussed at the table? And I am assuming in society play they usually avoid narratives that are explicitly about losing items because well they need to be as broad as possible in appeal. (I could be wrong about that)

I personally love item classes, and I love the significance of the implements.

[Alchemic_Genius]

pixierose wrote:

As a player I am fascinated by and love situations like this, and as a DM If there is a prison break, you bet your butt if I am have a thaumaturge im gonna have some interesting things to replicate what they would have wanted.

On the one hand I get it, there are mean DMS, and DMS that have a DM vs. player mindset and the rules could(and I suppose on some level) should guard for that but I also think the rules should be written with the expectation of Good Faith in players and DM's.

I get it if players don't like a certain style of play but should that not be something discussed at the table? And I am assuming in society play they usually avoid narratives that are explicitly about losing items because well they need to be as broad as possible in appeal. (I could be wrong about that)

I personally love item classes, and I love the significance of the implements.

Same, I love item classes. A jailbreak actually sounds easier for a thaum than a wizard; collect random bits during your stay you build up your esoterica. That s#&#ty prison cup you drink water from? It sustained you during a harrowing time, unlock its potential as an implement. Take the lanturn outside your cell as an implement; it was the one source of light you had in the dark dungeon. You still prep your stock of improvised scrolls by taking discarded notes and fliers and discovering latent energy within them. At worst, the implements might require a month to retrain if you didn't take them originally, but you're in prison, one of the biggest themes of jailbreaks is biding you time, making slow steps (in character, ooc these are best adjudicated on a faster pace) to prep for your escape.

[AnimatedPaper]

Leotamer wrote:

Otherwise, I would just suggest that a thaumaturge be able to turn any mundane item into the appropriate implement they have. If it is a problem that would let thaumaturges with weapon's implements change what weapon they are using, then just state that they have choose the appropriate weapon when they gain the implement choice, but considering the focus on retraining, I don't see why that would be a big deal. Other than that, you would just need a caveat that when you make a new implement of a certain type, your previous implement of that type returns to just being a mundane item.

This is more or less how I plan to run Thaums. Whether or not its RAI or RAW, really.

Some language to that effect would be good, but retraining seems like a great channel for this exact situation, I agree. And it solves the prison scenario mentioned, allowing characters to use random stuff lying around and waking the magical resonance in them.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Imo, "naked in jail" is a poor litmus test anyways; it's a specific scenario that might happen once or twice in a campaign to mix things up a bit that deliberately puts players at a disadvantage, and is meant to be solved through creativity. Retraining is actually something I expect would be common in these cases, where characters might retrain skills to pick up "criminal" ones like thievery, stealth, or even athletics or intimidate if the go the "I'm gonna bulk up and be the biggest guy in the yard" route. Skill feats too; a wizard might retain a feat into magical shorthand, whip up an improv spellbook and recreate their old spell list.

In these types of stories, item characters actually tend to shine as long as they are creative, since their crafting abilities let them make improvised gear for the group, and for classes like alchemist, or feat like talisman thaumaturgy or the scroll line, you just get them (though the alchemist would still have to make the tools first). You dont have to roll, you just have them through whatever flavor you want.