Hiya.
I've read some of the threads concerning Power Attack, but I'm still confused about when to apply the MAP. With the Magus out, I'm even more confused.
So the part of PA I have problems with is this statement:
Make a melee Strike. This counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple
attack penalty.
The way I first read this, I assumed your first Strike would be -5 (0 + -5), which would mimic the way Power Attack worked in previous editions; take a penalty to do more damage. It seems 99.9% of people all say the MAP doesn't apply until after the Strike.
I'm further confused by this because the Magus' Spellstrike says this:
This counts
as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, **but you don’t apply the penalty until after you’ve completed the Spellstrike.**
So does Spelltrike operate differently than Power Attack, or do they operate the same and SS is just clarifying when the MAP applies?
Further info for the above question:
In the Index is says this:
multiple attack penalty: You take this penalty on all attacks after the first on your turn. This is a –5 penalty on your second attack and –10 on all subsequent attacks (or –4 and –8 if your weapon or unarmed attack has the agile trait). PG. 446
This post seems to indicate that the MAP applies to attacks, not Strikes.
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No.
Your first attack is always at +0.
Extra attacks in the turn then suffer a mulitple attack penalty.
So a straight up full attack turn is 3 single action attacks at +0, -5, -10
The penalty for power attack is that it costs two actions not one and it counts as two attacks even though it is just one more powerful attack.
So with power attack it becomes +0 , -10
You still only get 3 actions
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For Power Attack, the MAP applies after your attack completes. So, you Power Attack at -0, then any subsequent strike(s) would be at -10 or -8 if you have an Agile weapon.
I can't think of an instance that you don't apply MAP after the Strike completes
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They operate the same and SS is just clarifying when the MAP applies, because it is actually two attack actions (one strike and one attack spell) although they use the same roll, and power attack is one buffed attack action.
And yes, like all attacks, MAP from PA applies after, otherwise every PA would have a -10 and be nearly unusable.
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Taking things one at a time:
1. The original assumption that the Power Attack strike would be at -5 is unfounded within the rules and appears to be a holdover from past editions. Which is kind of odd imo, as it works incredibly differently in pf1 with the most notable difference being that the pf2 version of Power Attack uses twice as many actions as a normal strike where pf1 power attack is all about trading accuracy for damage. In fact, if it worked in the way described in your post then it would pretty much always be better to just attack twice, once with no MAP and once with a -5 MAP.
2. As others have pointed out, Power Attack, if it's your first attack in the turn, doesn't receive a penalty. It says that it counts as 2 attacks, not that it counts as attack #2 in your turn. Heck, you could even do it as your second attack in a turn since it has the flourish trait. You could even do it as a third attack if you also have something like Flurry of blows. But, anyway, enough rambling. Basically, if it had a penalty then it would say so, like Double Shot for example.
3. Regarding SoM, it's just a clarification. Many feats have this exact wording, such as Double Shot linked above, and the alternative that's often used is "Apply your multiple attack penalty to the Strikes normally" like in Flurry of Blows, which means the first strike is at -0 and the next one is at -5 (assuming you hadn't made any attacks that turn before using Flurry of Blows). Spellstrike is in a bit of a unique spot in that you're only making one attack roll but are making two attacks with it, so without the existing wording it would be a little unclear whether the spell portion of the attack receives a multiple attack penalty or not. Honestly, I'm not sure what the "correct" RAW reading would even be in that case.
4. And finally, yes, MAP applies to attacks. But also, Strikes are attacks, as the strike action has the attack trait.
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I can't think of an instance that you don't apply MAP after the Strike completes
*Off topic* After doing some digging I found the one. Ranger's Impossible Flurry. The only instance, I know of, where MAP applies before the attack(s), and they made it very clear as to how it works.
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Heck, you could even do it as your second attack in a turn since it has the flourish trait. You could even do it as a third attack if you also have something like Flurry of blows. But, anyway, enough rambling. Basically, if it had a penalty then it would say so, like Double Shot for example.
Correcting myself real quick, since it's too late to edit my past post.
1. I meant to say that you could do it as your 2nd attack since it doesn't have the open trait. The fact that it has the flourish trait isn't relevant.2. You couldn't do it with flurry of blows, since they both have the Flourish trait
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*Off topic* After doing some digging I found the one. Ranger's Impossible Flurry. The only instance, I know of, where MAP applies before the attack(s), and they made it very clear as to how it works.
I can't think of an instance that you don't apply MAP after the Strike completes
It still doesn't avoid applying MAP after the action completes. So if you had Haste and had a 4th action available to make a Strike with, the MAP would still be at stage 3 (-10 normally) because of the 6 Strike actions you already made during the round.